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"Mom told me what she did!"

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Mom told me what she did!
1/2/02 1:37:21 PM Eastern Standard Time


Cliff: I am trying a new format this time, suggested by stRIPPed, where the
person who's commenting's name will appear after the IIIIIIIII separation
lines.  Then there will be an ">" before the name of the person who's
comment the person is commenting on (for example:
>John: I believe in shock openings.

Tom: I also believe in that, but...

Let me know what you think of this new format which should make these
emails more readable.


You can download a free sample from of
the new product from
Anthony Berger of Advanced Macking, which is an illustrated seduction
manual.  It looks very interesting and reviews are encouraged.
Thanks to Frank for letting me know about this one.


Milton Erickson, Bandler/Grinder, and Ross Jeffries
have opened up Pandora's box. Now the pornographers are
using SS to seduce young women to strip in front of
the camera. I got this from
the post tells you to go to.... read the bit about how
he uses anchoring to seduce, and then click the "maria anchoring movie" at
the bottom and watch him at work. Surely this is an indication that the end
is near.
> Mystery, commenting on Stephane:
If you come up with excuses like, "but I'm scared" or "I'm too busy", well,
you are effectively saying, "I haven't had enough lonely nights".

Cultleader: That's right. I tell people, no matter what their problem, that
if they cannot do what has to be done, then I simply say SUFFER. And that's
good advice, because only suffering will bring them to eventual success.
> Mystery: "Here the advice is INTELLECTUALIZED. We KNOW we
don't have a REASON to be scared, yet it still happens. The solution is not to
accumulate longer lists of REASONS, but to get out there so much that the
feeling wears
off over successive experiences."

Cultleader:: Right again. These shy guys usually understand the problem and
the solution, restating it doesn't help, they have looked at their problem
at more angles than others have.--But Mystery in a sense makes the same
error as Stephane. Like Stephane, he offers good
advice, but as I said these shyguys already know that they should take
action, restating it in more illustrious ways will not make them do 48
pickups a week. These blokes need to either suffer or be forced to act from
an outside source. - I see a business opportunity. Light parlor hypnotism
and NLP swish techniques are too mild, these guys need some hard
core KGB brainwashing, I propose that they come to me and for no fee up
front I will transform these nerds with Pain/drug hypnosis, bring them to a
state of transmarginalization, wipe the slate clean and then input the new
directives. I can subcontract for Mystery and Ross, I break em down , then
hand them over to the seduction experts for training. Of course I run into
the same problem's as the rest of you, I have offered a solution, but it's
up to the
individual to TAKE ACTION and sign on with the program, I can't just snatch
these guys from the beds.
(You know I'm just kidding , right?......OR AM I.)
So that brings us back to what Mystery basically said, either DO or JERK
OFF. For the benefit of mankind and,» I give
experience. If you cannot follow the first part, then by default you will
follow.... #2 SUFFER.
There it is. That's it. Everything else is commentary.


Mark B.:
When I was 13 I had a girlfriend that was 12 at the time. All we did was
just see each other after school, hold hands and play in the park. This went
on for about a year. Then summer came and she went away to summer camp and
came back a changed girl. All of a sudden she lost all interest in me and
went out and started seeing guy after guy after guy. This crushed me for I
really loved her. It took me a long time to get over being dumped like this
at such a tender and young age. My best guess was that she got laid for the
first time at camp, liked it and did not see me in a younger tender love
sort of way any more.
As the years went by and I became a full blown teenager, I suffered from
further esteem issues by having horrible acne problems which to this day
have left deep scars on both sides of my face. Needless to say from the age
of 15 to about 19, I did not have one date or one lay. Reeling from being
dumped so many years ago, as well as being so self conscious over having bad
skin, left me feeling totally inadequate as far as being able to deal and get
women. In addition, my mother always said that I should find and have that
one special girl and that a relationship just happens to you. This was a
very disempowering belief as it took the onus of responsibility away from
me. I would run away from women for fear of them seeing me as some sort of
bad skinned leper and at the same time waited for that "special one" to come
along and relationship to "just happen." What kept me sane was my weight
training and my school which I knew one day would be my salvation.
Then at the age of 20, while taking a summer course while at U of T, something
changed. I met a HB8 who approached me after class. Over the next few weeks
we talked and she asked me out and asked me for my number. She invited me
over to her house while her boyfriend was gone, of course, and led me to the
bedroom. This event showed me that, yes, I could be attractive to women and
that there is a possibility of success for me. My confidence surged.
By realizing that I could succeed with women and there was hope for me, I
began being more bold and open with women and acting with much more
confidence. I realized that they are not scary and they are not out to bite
my head off. In fact, the worst that has ever happened to me was a HB7 once
looked at me in the eye and told me to "fuck off, asshole" at a club to which
I had a good laugh. Since it was loud, I pretended not to hear her and made
her repeat herself about 10 times. With each time she grew more and more
agitated and even though she was being a total bitch I was getting back at
her by irritating her even further with each passing "what was that you
said?" from me.
So it was not that bad after all. What increased my confidence overall was
realizing that failure is a part of success. Having a minor in statistics
from U of T showed me that on each particular sample (action), results are
virtually random. However, over time they line up in an orderly fashion. For
example, if you approach 1 HB you could get a variety of responses - a "fuck
off", a smile, a "I have a BF", a number, a blow job, a date, a fuck, a bank
stare, her running away, her walking away, etc. Over time, if you approach
women, say 100 or 1000, you will be guaranteed to get a bunch of each of
these responses based on the approach you use. But it's nearly impossible to
predict what sort of response you will get on any one HB you approach.
However, over time results will line themselves up relatively consistently
based on how you approach them and the only way to get them is to go out
there and do it 10's, 100's and 1,000's of times.
Let's put success with women into a formula:
Assume success or f{S} = being direct + being good at NLP + confidence +
charm + smiling + acting with courage + PV + R. PV are personal variables
where these are things that you do specifically yourself that make you
successful, plus R which is a random variable.
R are things out of your control that may either positively or negatively
predispose you to her such as her mood, her personality, her preferences,
her PMS, her past or whatever that is out of your control. Things contained
in R are things you cannot control for the most part right at the beginning
and yet they will to a large extent affect your success rate. However, given
that you meet an HB who's R does not contain things that may negatively
predispose you to her, being good at all the things mentioned above that you
can control, can significantly improve one's chance for success.
So now having all the things I can control such as being direct + being good
at NLP + confidence + charm + smiling + acting with courage + PV have given
me a
huge confidence boost knowing that as long as I can control them I will find
women with a positive R toward me. Based on this, I went out expecting a
whole scale of various results and that is exactly what I found. For example,
I found that 30 - 50% of the women I approached I could get a number and a
date. Out of those about 50% of them I could sleep with and out of those
maybe 25% would want a relationship. So I broke down the numbers 100 women,
40 dates, 20 fucks and 5 relationships. So all I have to do is approach say
5 women to get one fuck. But what I also found was that once I got one with
a positive R (randomly positive predisposition) toward me it was up to me to
fuck things up and I made sure I did not by being direct, charming, sexual,
flirty, complementary, etc. I also realized that the more time I spent with a
woman and if things did not go my way it actually became my responsibility
for fucking things up. In addition, the results are not perfectly aligned.
This means that not one out of every, say, 3 women I approach will give me her
number. This means that this is the expected result over time but not over
the short term. Once I had a streak where I had 7 women in a row that I
approached give me their numbers and I ended up going out with them all. Out
of those, 3 slept with me and two wanted a relationship. But after that I had
a streak where about 5 I went up to said no. This indicated to me that
sometimes I will have streaks but as long as I keep at it the numbers will
even themselves out.
To understand this better consider the flip of a coin. The probability of
heads is 50% and the probability of tails is 50%. Over time, say 10,000
flips of the coin, you will get roughly 5,000 heads and 5,000 tails, give or
take a few. But there will be times when heads will get way ahead of tails or
vice versa. The key to remember is that each flip is independent of the
previous one and the odds of success are exactly the same from flip to flip.
Knowing this allows me to keep going in the face of say 5 or 10 rejections
in a row while making sure I am sharpening my skills that I can control.
This way I know that there is a chance that on the next flip I could score.
So knowing that any initial negative predispositions to me were out of my
control, I became less and less worried when they happened. In fact, what I do
is repeat to myself that there is a chance of success on the very next woman
that I approach. What I also found was that there was a whole wide range of
to which women would wait to respond me. Some would fuck you for the first
time on the first meeting, or the first date, second date, third date or
after 6 weeks or never. There are women who I would need to ask once for a
date, twice, three times or more or they would never go out. Same thing for a
number or anything else. Now when I see a babe I think to myself, after a
couple of deep breaths "Aggressive, calm, funny, sexual, flirty and direct.
There is a chance of success on this one. Let's see where she falls into the
probability scale" And since I cannot control her R (random initial
positive/negative predispositions) my focus is totally on what I am doing
and what I need to do rather than worrying about what she will do or what
she is thinking. For me this is the best way of making sure I stay on track
and not get too down when things are going rough.
What I also found useful is to show what you are about right away so that
you find out early if she has the same predispositions as you for you do not
want to be about only fucking (for example) and she wants to wait until
marriage. By revealing what I am after, I am qualifying her and seeing if
she is also predisposed that same way as me. When I meet a HB my thinking is
"She looks hot, I wonder if she is a good fuck, I also wonder if this could
be that type of woman with whom I could spend some quality time." So my
approach is one where I indicate to her my level of attraction and desire
for her while also indicating my desire to get to know her better and spend
some quality time doing things together. If she agrees, then I found one with
my positive R (random positive predisposition) then it's up to me then to
keep from fucking up. But if she is not about fucking nor fun to be with or
only one of the two, I go on my way most of time unless she is really hot
then I just sleep with her and move on that same day.

MB: My little sister called me today and admitted that she slept with her
new boyfriend for the first time. This is the same guy who she told not to
call her again because he talked too much about his other women. He kept on
being persistent and finally scored. When I asked what finally changed her
mind she said he was free and easy with her and that turned her on. She
said that he said he wanted to sleep with her and she said she was unsure
but he went ahead began undressing and kissing her anyways and she did not
resist him. Instead of asking he just took charge, went for what he wanted
and scored. She also said that he was not as well hung as her previous
boyfriend but that he knew how to use what he had and that made up for any
difference in size and actually exceeded anything the previous boyfriend
ever did.
I asked what finally turned her she said that he just took charge and took
what he wanted and that took any and all uncertainty away from her. She
said being with him sexually was the best experience she ever had because
he took charge and was a leader throughout the experience - she just laid
back and had fun. Good for her..........


> Mystery: "Getting good with women through hypnosis is a crock of shit."

Adam: I believe that Mystery's outlook is much more beneficial than
thinking that hypnosis will take away your fears. I don't think hypnosis is
"full of shit", but it's only about 4% of the deal, the other 96% is field
To believe that it helps any more than that 4% I believe is HARMFUL rather
than beneficial, because you have FALSE confidence. I have been a part of
the JURASSIC (Just Using Ross' Amazing Speed Seduction» In Consortium) lair
in Santa Barbara and the one in the Bay area. And there are many guys in
there who just think Ross and Richard Bandler are awesome, and they don't
This one guy paid over $2000 to go to the Speed Life seminar, I asked him
how his life has improved since then, and he said "The best thing I
learned, is that you can control your state."
Well, this guy can control his state worse than anyone I've ever known, and
he has no balls.
I know a guy who's been to 2 Major Mark seminars, and has all these Ross
Jeffries products. He's even got a certificate from Tad James to be a
hypnotist! He claims that you don't have to do so many walkups to get good.
I go out with him, and he can't do more than 2 walkups a night before he
calls it quits. He uses excuses like "I don't feel like it, or my absolute
favorite 'I wasn't in state'.
I could name more people who have gone to SS seminars, Essential Skills
seminars, etc. who say they learned all this valuable stuff, and they still
couldn't get laid if they were the last mammal on earth.
I have been doing many walkups in clubs regularly every weekend, and it's
no longer a scary thing for me. I have fun with women, make them laugh, I'm
not self-critical, and I don't focus on state. I always come home with a
phone #, and I'm actually getting laid sometimes. I've come a long way, and
I can only go further.


Chrisonic:  I will post here the approach which got me the hottest girl I
ever kissed. I never read about a similar approach on those seduction
sites, so I would like to see your comments.
I was in a club with a friend drinking some beers. After 6 or 7 cans of
beer, we decided to approach 2 girls. Both were 6 or 6,5. Mine had a nice
face, but her body was a little flat. I used the well known AFC approach:
"You are nice, What's your name, where do you live," and all this old shit...
After 7 or 8 minutes of talking, I succeeded and kiss closed. I think it
happened because she liked my look. My friend succeeded with the other girl
At some point I needed to pee, so told my girl I was going to the bathroom
and she said ok. When I came back, I noticed a girl who I thought was the
same girl I kiss closed some minutes before (actually it wasn't the same
girl. The girl was an HB10 with a similar face and a super hot body!  The
club was very crowded and I was kind of drunk, so I couldn't realize that).
An AFC was hitting on her (HB10) and she was laughing, so I became angry
and very aggressive (thinking HB10 was the girl I had already kissed).
I tapped the AFC's shoulder and said to him:
Me: Hey man, this is my girl. Don't bother her.
AFC: Ok. I was just talking to her...
So I bypassed the AFC and went to the girl in a very aggressive-ultra
confident way and with an angry look in my face (don't forget I WAS NOT
pretending I was angry. I was, in fact, angry!):
Me: What are you thinking!? You can't do that to me, cause I'll kick your
butt if you try!
HB10: (looking puzzled but with a little smile in her face) Are you crazy?
What did you say to the guy (the AFC)I was talking to?
Me: Yeah, I am crazy, so what!? (I think at this moment I put my 2 hands on
the wall, so she couldn't go away, if she wanted.) That's not the way
things are if you are with me!!
HB10: (still with a smile in her face) Are you crazy?
Me: I am crazy, and you won't get out of here without kissing me! No way!
(I tried to kiss, she turned her face. Notice that at this point I'm still
thinking she is the same girl I kiss closed before!)
HB10: (she simulated a reaction pushing one of my arms, but it was obvious
she didn't want to get rid of me, cause she was still with that smile on
her face) What are you doing?
Me: I am telling you, you won't get out of here without kissing me! (I
tried to kiss her again, she turned her face a little bit, but I reached
the side of her mouth. She had the same smile, still. I'm still thinking
she is the girl I kiss closed before! I thought that her resistance was
Me: (I say something along the same lines, hug her tight and tongue her
this time.) When I looked down to her body I realized she wasn't the same
girl and instead a super HB10. I thought to myself: What the fucking heck!!
I couldn't believe I had just kiss closed an HB 10 in less than 5
minutes!!! My friend couldn't belive it also. He saw me kissing this girl
that every guy in the club wanted and sort of froze.  That happened in
1999. Back then I was a complete AFC (I still am kind of an AFC, but I'm
trying hard to get out of AFCness). Now I am trying to figure out how to
systemize this kiss close and repeat this performance. I think It will only
work with HB 8, 9, 10 or the ones who like male aggression.
What do you think? Perhaps Nightlight9 has similar approaches...


> Mark B: Why does talking about a relationship seem to negate one's
chances for getting her? I figured that when a guy tells her he wants one,
he is in essence ignoring her and focusing on a relationship.)

Stephane: Nice observation...talking about a relationship right off the bat
is a prescription for
masturbation.  I want to add that when you discuss a relationship too
quickly you are
sort of 'giving yourself away for free'.

These days I've been having crazy successes by using a 'qualification
frame'.  I just boldly ask her you have a BF? Do you live
with your parents?  What do you do for a living?  etc. etc. and then
saying, "Have a drink with me."  Actually, I don't ONLY do that, but I'm
giving you a bare skeleton.  You guys are going to have to wait for the
book to come out (soon, I promise)
to get to the good stuff : )
> Mystery:(Commenting on Stephane: "The thing with shyness is in getting
the person to see the truth and to realize that girls aren't scary. Think
about it....if you
actually just SIT in a bar and LOOK at a girl, they get scared : )  Try it!
Go to a bar, order a drink, and sit at the far end of the bar. Doesn't
matter what you look like, just sit there and put on a warm, friendly
smile, nothing spectacular, and LOOK AT THEM. When they (if they) look at
you back, just maintain your friendly smile and keep looking at them. See
how long it takes for them to look away in TOTAL SHYNESS! You'll be amazed.
It's THEM who are shy, not you!! That's the lesson that you have to teach
shy people."):
Mys wrote: Here the advice is INTELLECTUALIZED.  We KNOW we don't have a
REASON to be
scared, yet it still happens.  The solution is not to accumulate longer
lists of REASONS, but to get out there so much that the feeling wears off
over successive experiences.  Wanna get rid of the fear of roller coasters?
Decide to ride 500 of them. That'll do it.  Your body will get so USED to
them that it becomes NORMAL. My cat used to be afraid of car rides.  Now he
sleeps in the car.  Think of THAT!

Stephane: The advice is NOT intellectualized.  I'm giving them a set of
instructions to
go out in the real world and learn something practical for themselves.  If
they actually follow my instructions outlined here they won't just have an
intellectual understanding, they will learn something of value on ALL LEVELS.
> Mys:"A person is gonna SIT DOWN and CHANGE? Please! The WOMEN problem is
far too important to mess around with TRICKING your brain to FEEL confident.

Stephane: You call it 'tricking', I call it learning.  All change is a
learning experience.  And
why do you emphasize SITTING?  I didn't know that you had to be standing to
> Mys:"Mere words will NEVER take the place of EXPERIENCE."

Stephane: Words create experience and actually DO affect one's neurology.
> Mys: "But the guys who are really good at
the game aren't good because they hypnotized the fear out of their head
(sorry, it's bullshit, gentlemen). They are good because they FOUGHT the
fear. They had it in them to keep FIGHTING because the rewards were worth
it. And then looking back they realized, they won the war because of
hundreds of little daily battles.

Stephane: I'd sure hate to be you!  See, I don't battle with myself,
EVER.  The battles
tend to reinforce the problem anyway...
> Mys:"See me work a room.  The girls don't know which girl I'm with is my
That MYSTERY is valuable to build curiousity. You see, that's the power of
NEG THEORY. A guy would NOT do a NEG on a girl if he LIKED her. This really
throws the girl off the scent. It's like, "the guy approached my group but
doesn't seem to be hitting on me."  This is a great position to build her

Stephane: If she can't handle my flirting with her and my showing sincere
interest in her, then
what the fuck do I want her for??  Why is she in the bar, if not to meet a
guy?  I'm
not manipulative, I'm not sneaky, I'm not trying to get her to think "the
guy approached my group but doesn't seem to be hitting on me."  I don't do
that shit.
> Mys:"I prefer having her wonder if you are there for your own
entertainment or
to hit on someone ... and confuse her even more by NOT hitting on her until
AFTER she is hitting on you."

Stephane: So you want to make them wonder things and confuse them and wait
for them to hit on you. Too much work.  I am sure you can make this work
for you, but that's all it is. See, I don't bullshit them like you do.

A message to Mystery:
Mys, I have read all your comments to me about hypnotherapy and NLP.  I
don't knock YOUR
business, and I don't insult you and tell you that your business is
completely useless.
I hope you can take what you dish out.

You take your students and send them out into the field without any mental
therefore I wouldn't recommend your workshop UNLESS they ALREADY knew how
to control
their state.  Then again, if they already know how to control their state
and be relaxed
and loose and charming around women, then they don't need you!  And that's
because when you can control your state of mind THE REST IS EASY.

I'm not intellectualizing the shyness away.  The brain in an archival
system -- it doesn't
have a delete button.  I'm not getting rid of shyness, I'm adding new
states.  I set
them up so that right BEFORE they have shyness they have the confidence
instead.  Of
course, they still know how to be shy, but they don't use that program
anymore.  I literally
get them at the level of cortical pathways, and if you'd like to challenge
that go ahead!
Bring me a healthy guy with a chyck-phobia and we'll hook him up to
brain-scan machines
and measure the changes scientifically.

I've done things with hypnosis and NLP that are so far beyond what I
thought possible
it's scary.  A human being really IS a learning machine and you really CAN
learn to
respond differently to any stimulus.  Practical, real-world experience is
important, but if
you can't control the disabilitating feeling of fear BEFORE you go out,
you're going to
get crushed in the real world.  And the point is that you don't need to get
hit by a bus

One of the nice things about being in a trance state... is that you can
dare to look at...
and learn things... that you WOULDN'T dare to look at in the ordinary
waking state....and
in the trance state you can know... that you have all the protections of
your 'unconscious'
mind... which has been protecting you... in your dreams.... allowing you to
dream what you
wish... when you wish... and keeping that dream for as long as your
'unconscious' thought
> Mys: Commenting on: ...cause it's bold. I like it. I think I'll try this
shit out and report back on the results. Of course, you have to do this on
a sexually mature girl.
> Greg Rasputin:"So you're gonna do an approach that only works on a
sexually mature girl? But if you've never approached her before how do you
if she's sexually mature?

Stephane: I can appreciate your point but I know a sexually mature girl
just by looking at her.
The way she moves, talks, speaks... I'm just trying to say that if you
learn to trust
your intuition...
> Alan: "Now, I still have a shyness problem: last night, Porn Girl asked
me what
sort of porn stories I most liked to read, and I was a bit shy about
telling her. When I see her next, I'm going to "Feel the Fear and Do It
Anyway." Curse this shyness :-)

Stephane: Consider, for a moment, the notion of 'secondary gain'.  Because
shyness really IS cute!
USE your shyness...if they think it's cute, then they think it's cute.  I
don't want you to 'get over' anything, I want you to master it.  I want you
to be able to know how you engage in the activity of 'being shy', and what
triggers it.  There's a funny thing that happens when I work with
shyness.  As soon as they realize exactly how they go about creating and
maintaining it they learn to control it.  Good luck to you and don't get
mad at yourself for having 'shyness'....learn how it works and the rest
will take care of itself.

Oh, and by the way...learn to actually be PROUD of the kind of porn you
read  :-)


Mr. Mctoothbucket:
For the computer dork in all of us:
10 Feel not very confident
20 Be afraid to talk to people
30 Feel lonely as a result
40 Feel even less confident
50 Be even more afraid to talk to people
60 Feel even lonelier.
70 IF Do something about it THEN GOTO 80 ELSE GOTO 40
80 Let people know you're alive
90 Let people know what you think and feel
100 Notice that people are becoming more interested in hearing what you
have to say


Deadeye:  Been a while since I posted. Some updates: On the mother-daughter
thing, they had dinner at my house, along with daughter's bf. I
concentrated on tonality, mirroring, and kino with mother but not
daughter because bf was there, and frankly, she didn't need it. At
about midnight, they all wanted to ride in my old Corvette convertible.
I took them riding in turns, mother first, who kept saying "you're so
easy to talk to." On the road, I said "Take off your top." Mother (who
was having a good time) grinned and said "No, I shouldn't".  I smiled and
said "Okay." Three seconds later the top comes off (no bra) and stays
off until we're a block from the house. Daughter's next, and in the car
I tell her what happened. She grins and says "Well, then I have to, too."
Shirt and bra come off. At a stoplight we kiss. GREAT kisser. Drive
around and then take bf for his ride. Then they want rides in the Viper
(a coupe.) Mother first again, and this time, without a word from me,
when we clear the driveway she takes off ALL her clothes(!).  I just smile
and drive around as if I do this every day. (Started to finger her, but
she didn't want that.) Next, I tell bf to hop in, figuring I'll let mom &
daughter talk for 10-15 minutes. Drop him off, and when daughter gets
in, she says "Mom told me what she did!" and proceeds to do exactly the
same thing. She, OTOH, liked being fingered and positioned herself to
permit easier access.
Daughter heard HB skater (a bisexual) was coming to visit last week for
the holidays and wanted to get together with us but scheduling never
worked out. HB skater was fun as usual except she took two Valium before
Christmas dinner and made an absolute fool of herself to my family. On a
happier note, daughter kicked bf out of her apartment last week after
he gave her a black eye. I introduced her to one of my co-workers as
"Sort of my girlfriend." She laughed and said "ONE of his girlfriends."
Good attitude.
Now for the question: A few months ago, I met HB Italian when I was with
HB skater. HB Italian was with her bf of 2 years, who I had met once at
the racetrack, and he recognized me and called me over. We all talked
and had drinks, then HB Italian took me aside and asked if HB skater was
my serious gf, as she had a friend in mind she thought I would like. I
told her HB skater lived 1000 miles away and we had no delusions about
exclusivity. She told me about the woman and said she'd call with the
number, which she did a few days later. When I tried it, it was not a
working number. I called HB Italian to say she'd gotten the number
wrong and she said "Let me get my address book and I'll get us on a
3-way call right now and introduce you." She did, and the woman said,
"Well, I'm in a very committed relationship but we could be friends." I
immediately said "No, I've got enough friends. Thank you for being
upfront so neither of us wasted our time." This, I found out later, blew
HB Italian away. She thought it was an amazing attitude.
I ran into HB Italian when I was out having dinner with friends a few
weeks later. She informs us she's broken up with bf after he became
upset over the fact that she had 3 different kinds of soap, and shoved
her against the wall to make his point (where do women find these
morons?). I mention I'm about to meet HB skater for 4 days in the
mountains but the night before on the phone she got in a snit and said
"Maybe I shouldn't go." HB Italian laughs and says, "Hell, I'll go if
she doesn't want to." We all laugh. HB Italian calls me when I get back
in town & wants me to meet her and two of her friends for drinks. I do &
we end up necking in the car. We go out a few days later and we spend
the whole night snuggling together on the couch. We go out to dinner a
few days later and she has stomach trouble and asks me to take her back
to her house afterwards. When I get home, the phone is ringing and it's
her, saying "I really wanted to spend the night in your bed, but I
didn't think you'd appreciate it if I got sick." I laugh and thank her
for sparing us both.
She calls the next night and wants to come over, order food, snuggle
and watch a Grace Kelly movie on video. Of course, I agree. She talks
about cooking for me, and us taking a yoga class together. I like this
because HB Italian (age 37) is the smartest and most interesting of all
the girls I've been seeing, she has her own business, and is financially
very savvy. We end up in bed, having exceptionally good sex. "Oh God, I
just KNEW you were a "diver" when I met you!" and "When did you know
that I was going to go to bed with you?" I told her I knew the night we
met, which is the vibe I got at the time. She blushed and was very
pleased. In the morning she was ready to go at it again. Before she went
home, she left a silk nightshirt and a toothbrush at my house, joking
that she was hiding them in my bureau so no other girl would put them in
the toilet.
So now the problem: The night we spent together was less than 2 weeks
before Christmas. When I called her the next day to make plans, she
seemed depressed and distant. She had family obligations for the
holiday, so I tried to drum up enthusiasm for something a few days
after, then New Year's. She went on about hating New Year's, another
year gone, etc. I remained upbeat and with a no-big-deal attitude.
Remember HB skater was scheduled to come in town on the 21st for 5 days
(planned since before I ever met HB Italian) and this meant less juggling
for me.
She called on the 23rd and I was upbeat, busy, and asked her advice on
where to get an XBox for my daughter. I dropped by her house on the 28th
with a few little gifts I had gotten her for Christmas: Two kinds of
soap, because of her ex's attitude, and a gangbang video, which she had
earlier confessed was her favorite adult genre. She liked the gifts and
tilted her face up for a goodbye kiss when I left.
We talked yesterday (New Year's Eve). Knowing how HB Italian is very close
to her widowed mother, I told her to meet me at my Mom's house, I
wanted her to meet my mother (widowed and age 86), and see the 250-lb.
Christmas tree I put up for her. She agreed after some good-natured
ribbing when she tried to put me off, but asked "Why are you so
persistent?" I laughed and said, "Because I like you and I know this
whole pretending-you-don't-like-me bit is just some weird temporary
phase you're going through." "I've never acted like I didn't like you!"
she protested. "Well, you aren't doing a very good job, anyway," I
laughed. We had a great hour or so with my mother, and at one point HB
Italian commented (with a small smile) "Your son is really persistent."
HB Italian said earlier she was going to a party at a friend's house.
When I walked her to her car, she made it clear she was not going to
invite me to go along. I shrugged, once again conveying "no big deal."
Told her I'd call her in a day or so, and left without going for a
kiss--the vibe was wrong.
HB Italian is the most interesting of the girls I'm seeing, but her
current behaviour has me scratching my head. I know several things:
1. It is counterproductive to try to reason with a woman about why she
should be attracted to you ("We had great sex and you wanted to make all
sorts of plans with me, what's changed?") So is sounding like you're
pleading. I've kept the "Bratty little sister" frame firmly in mind at
all times. Also always used my most seductive voice (Caucasian Barry
White) on the phone since day one.
2. She is sad about the time she wasted with the ex, as he had obvious
problems. She does NOT want to get back together with him.
I'm at a loss as to what I should do to recreate the attraction on her
part. Is this just a "Christmas holiday after breakup" funk that hits
some women really hard? Should I
a) Keep doing what I'm doing -- calling every few days with some small but
specific thing I want her to do with me? (i.e. coming over and cooking
dinner with me)
b) Not call at all for a while? How long?
c) Tell her (with a smile) "Hey, I met this really great girl, and we
really hit it off. We were making plans together, and we had great sex
that was about to get even better. Now she's vanished, and I need your
help to find out if she's just away for a little while, or if she's
dead. I'd like to have this girl back, but If I know she's dead, then
I'll stop thinking about her."
d) Tell her, the next time she says something about how she wasted two
years on ex-bf and she doesn't want to waste another two, "HB Italian,
NO time you spend with me will ever be time wasted."
e) Tell her it's obvious to me she's no longer interested and ask her to
introduce me to some equally hot friends. (I don't think I'm at this
point yet, BTW)
I know I've got other irons in the fire, but this one has (or had) LTR
potential that the others do not. At age 44, I'm perhaps more interested
in self-sufficient, smart women than some of you PUAs.
Suggestions from anyone would be appreciated. I'm especially interested
in what Ross would suggest.


>Ross: I met Sin last week. Sin saw ME do some stuff that opened his did your buddy Chris/Neal. Stop assuming you know everything. You
don't. Is it too good to be true that I got a girl hot and bothered in
under 5 minutes asking her TWO simple questions without even putting a
finger on her? AND did the same thing to the hostess, telling her what I
was doing while I did it?

Christos: So are you going to spill the beans and tell us what these magic
questions were?
I enjoy reading this list very much but am often frustrated by the stuff
that is left unsaid.
I have read a lot of references to the cube and Riker's 3 rules but still
haven't managed to find out what these are yet.
Cliff, please could you include some pointers on basics like this so that
the threads are a little bit easier to follow?

Cliff: The cube was posted here some time ago and I don't remember if
Riker's 3 rules were or not - but if not, that would be up to Riker to
allow them to be posted here.  I don't think it would be a good idea to
repost the details of these type of references everytime something comes up
(this list is long enough as it is) but I do think it would be a good idea
to have a place where you can find out such things (eg. an FAQ - Frequently
Asked Questions - area on a website.  A website is something I am giving a
lot of thought to and hope to have under development shortly -- I would
hope to have the archives of all the old posts there and you would be able
to do a search to find anything that you wanted).  Keep your eyes on this
list for new developments.
> Suzy Licorice: My bf said "I'm going to read the palm of an accountant"
and took her hand. She was very intrigued and asked "You know how to read
palms?" My bf said "Yes. I learned palm reading as a way to get to know
someone quickly, and see if this is the kind of person I might like to get
to know better." She was pleasantly surprised and then said "A psychic read
my palm once. I'll see how you compare to her." My bf said "Your life line
and your head line intersect at the edge of your palm." She said "The
psychic said my life line was short, so I won't live long." My bf said "The
lines on your hand cannot possibly predict your future, that's bullshit.
But they do predict how you will respond to events in your life, because
they are your lines." She said "Yes, that makes sense!" He said "You could
very well enjoy a very long life." That really eased her. It also diffused
a cruel time bomb that the psychic had planted. (Like Major Mark says
"Leave 'em better than you found 'em.") She then became eager to know more
about herself. My bf said "Talking about psychics, you have a square palm,
which means you are not psychic. Psychics have long narrow palms. You are
not psychic, but you are intuitive. You can think about someone and then
the phone will ring and it will be them." She said "Oh yes! That is so
true." He said "You have the intuition to be a quick judge of character.
You can know, right when you meet someone, that this is a person who has a
positive energy, and this is someone you would like to get to know better."
She enthusiastically agreed. He said "Your heart line is very curved. This
means you are a very passionate person. You are not only passionate about
passion, you are passionate about the things you believe." She agreed. Then
he said "But what is interesting is, see here, the end of your heart line
is forked. That is a sign of sexual adventurism. Are you bi-sexual?" She
said "Welllllll...." and looked down with a big smile. My bf said "You
don't have to answer that." She said "Well, I partially experimented with
that once." I said "It is very natural." My bf went into Rick H's "Sexual
Nurturing" pattern. She kept looking at me for my approval, trying to see
if I was bi-sexual. She asked me if I believed that. I said "Yes I do." I
explained to her that it is a very natural thing. She said "Why is it
natural for two women but not two men?" I said "It's all about energy" and
I went into Rick H's "Ying and Yang energy" pattern. Once she got my
approval and knew that I was into it, she became very comfortable. I got
kino on her and she reciprocated. I had to keep the kino toned down because
my brother was also at the club. His presence was really cramping my style.

Christos:  Good writing combined with very useful techniques.  I also like
the Bluffer's Guide to Fortune Telling book but I am not sure that it is
still in print. I like to use the following lines to loosen girls up in
this kind of scenario:
You are going to have a new experience
You need to be more adventurous
I see a missed opportunity, try something while you have the chance,
otherwise you may not have a similar opportunity
You have a lot of tension and you need a release
You will live to a very old age but you will have lots of serious illnesses
in later life
Of course, I always leave them wanting a little more and then drop in that
I have a tarot deck at home if she is really interested.
I got laid a lot thanks to Rider Waite. Crowley was not so helpful. Is
there a better, more salacious deck that I should be using?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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