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"It could just be my devastating charm"

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It could just be my devastating charm
1/4/02 11:10:36 AM Eastern Standard Time


Here are a few seduction related sites to visit:


> Stephane: These days I've been having crazy successes by using a
'qualification frame'. I just boldly ask her you have a BF?
Do you live with your parents? What do you do for a living? etc. etc. and
then saying, "Have a drink with me." Actually, I don't ONLY do that, but
I'm giving you a bare skeleton. You guys are going to have to wait for the
book to come out (soon, I promise) to get to the good stuff : )

Ross: I think this is VERY powerful and useful, especially for girls under
25 and
> Stephane: A message to Mystery:  Mys, I have read all your comments to
me about hypnotherapy and NLP. I don't knock YOUR business, and I don't
insult you and tell you that your business is completely useless. I hope
you can take what you dish out.

Ross: Obviously, Mys has learned a style of confronting people that seems
so natural to him, he can't even consider doing anything else.  I think
that style of "MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY" will succeed in impressing people
with ZERO self-confidence and ZERO ability to judge or trust their own
thinking. So that is what he is going to attract, both in male "followers"
and in women.
By contrast, I do NOT claim to know everything. I welcome feedback and
encourage and reward participation from my students; that is why SS is
currently light-years ahead of anything else and will remain that way - we
are truly a group exploration of what can and does work.
I suspect Mys is imitating some figure in his life who walked through the
world this way, but it is very limiting. To anyone with any brains or
experience, I believe his approach comes off as insecure and defensive.
> Stephane: You take your students and send them out into the field
without any mental  preparation... therefore I wouldn't recommend your
workshop UNLESS they ALREADY knew how to control their state. Then again,
if they already know how to control their state
and be relaxed and loose and charming around women, then they don't need
you! And that's
because when you can control your state of mind THE REST IS EASY.

Ross:  Exactly, but looking at Mys' apparent map of things, if it isn't
difficult, it isn't worthwhile! What an extra sack of rocks to have to walk
with through this world.
>Stephane:  I'm not intellectualizing the shyness away. The brain in an
archival system -- it doesn't have a delete button. I'm not getting rid of
shyness, I'm adding new states.

Ross: Great distinction. Mys doesn't think on these levels so he doesn't
realize these distinctions.
>Stephane: Practical, real-world experience is important, but if you can't
control the disabilitating feeling of fear BEFORE you go out, you're going
to get crushed in the real world. And the point is that you don't need to
get hit by a bus to LEARN TO LOOK BOTH WAYS.

Ross: Bingo. Mys has some heavy parental messages, probably from a
about life being difficult and people basically being shiftless, weak,
lazy-bastards who need to be beaten into submission or bullied into doing
things "THE RIGHT WAY".


GameMaster (Comments from private email about online dating»): I know the
top 5% get deluged with mail and sometimes they don't have the time to
write back. I'm sticking primarily with the 34 and up crowd, I've found
that is pretty much the threshold to be able to appeal to their sense of
fair play when it comes to a reply. Lot's of very pretty girls on
down here just because the bar scene is so brutal and the nitelife in this
city has sort of lost it's luster with most people. Still a
pro-players town.

Anyway, I get a lot of no replies too but I've taken the Astrology route
lately and I only send when the moons in a water or fire sign. OK, go ahead
and take your shots!  : ) But it seems
to be working, these are the days they are the most sensitive and daring.
If they don't write
back I send them a note going "OK, here's the deal (blah blah)....if I
still don't hear back
I send them one final note appealing to their sense of courtesy. I'd say I
probably get thru
to 6-7/10 just thru persistence. The final final appeal is the "intuition"
route. That gets the
number up to 7-8/10. I've been busy. I just make a list of the girls and
copy their profile over
to Word and then edit it down and send it back to em'. Or it could just be
my devastating
charm : )?

(Part of a comment on a former Miss Louisiana who he met online:) Easy to
see that she wants to get me hooked first but that ain't likely to happen
anytime soon. She wants an exclusive and I'd give her the impression of
that if she had any hot friends but I met 'em all New Year's and they're
all dogs.

Cliff: You'd dangle the carrot to get the bunnies, hmm?

GameMaster: Is that bad?? : ) I've got a stack of business cards and email
addresses to mine when
the heat dies down from a couple of recent castaways. By now they have
heard without a doubt at least three things about me and 2/3 are good.
Prolly on top of their curiosity list is the "full body orgasm" routine.
It's an induction I use to get them to relax after I've already gotten them
off the first time and they become willing subjects for more. It's a simple
3,2,1-10, 9, 8 stairway thing. I get them to walk thru a door at the bottom
of the stairs where they see themselves having the most explosive mind
blowing orgasm they ever imagined...with me : ) Then I pull out the Triple
Play and fuck their world up.  Miss L won't let me do it to her anymore
cause it scares her too much. Women have a hard time letting go I
guess...not me!

Some tips on
Now that I boil my experience of the last 6 months down, I've found the
following to be a good road map:
1) if you're going to login to do a search do it in off hours, like early
in the morning or
late at nite. They have a feature where they show that you are "Logged in
Now" and
the girls have told me that's a turnoff when they find that we are cruising
for them
while they're surfing for us. Doesn't make any sense but these are women
we're dealing
2) they also have a feature that shows when you were last using the service
like 'in the
past 24 hours, the past 3 days, etc'. I try to limit my logon time so that
it won't appear
that I'm constantly trolling for pussy so I do my searches "offline" and
make a list of
possibles and then go do a name search which allows you full access to
their profile.
3) I cut and paste their profile to Word and then write a witty one
paragraph response
and mail them out once a week, or when the moon's in Libra : ))) With
I've gotten my hit rate up to 70-80% with a 90% close rate after meeting.
It's just
not fair.
4) keep making changes to your profile till you get it right and solicit
feedback from the
girls. I've pared mine down dramatically in the last two months and made a
of key changes that seem to be working based on what I hear back from the
5) get them on the phone and talking as soon as possible and make the most
of it. The
fucking email thing could go on forever with some of these chicks.
Oh yeah, and when they ask for more pictures I send them a pic of my dog
Elvis and
tell them that's what I look like today. It's really bizarre but they stop
asking for more
photos at that point and I usually get something back like "you're even
more handsome
than I thought".


Mark B.:
> Adam: This one guy paid over $2000 to go to the Speed Life seminar, I
asked him how his life has improved since then, and he said "The best thing
I learned,
is that you can control your state." Well, this guy can control his state
worse than anyone I've ever known, and he has no balls.

MB: It's interesting that there are really two types of guys that post and
generally write about women. The first group are guys that base their posts
on real life experience. The second group, which is almost always stronger
in their conviction, posts based on what they have read. It makes me laugh
when I hear things like "Never tell a woman she is beautiful" "You could
give a woman orgasms just by talking to her" "Do not call her for 5 days
after you meet her" - pure nonsense and obviously any who has had any real
life experience knows this advice is not real.

Clifford: You can give a woman orgasms just by talking to her and some
women shouldn't be called for 5 days after you meet her.  And, now that I
think about it, telling some women they are beautiful is the wrong thing to
do.  But none of these are absolutes -- they are all situation specific but
definitely not complete nonsense.
> Adam: I know a guy who's been to 2 Major Mark seminars, and has all
these Ross
Jeffries products. He's even got a certificate from Tad James to be a
hypnotist! He claims that you don't have to do so many walk-ups to get
good.  I go out with him, and he can't do more than 2 walk-ups a night
before he calls it quits. He uses excuses like "I don't feel like it, or my
absolute favourite 'I wasn't in state'.  I could name more people who have
gone to SS seminars, Essential Skills seminars, etc. who say they learned
all this valuable stuff, and they still
couldn't get laid if they were the last mammal on earth.

MB: Right. Being a hypnotist, Speed Seducer, PUA, a magician, a herbalist,
mind bender, a
sorcerer, an evil scientist will not get anyone laid unless ones goes out
there and asks for it. Over the holidays I spent the entire time, other
than with
family, with one HB who has become somewhat of a girlfriend it seems,
although I am still keeping my options open. Whenever I wanted to bang her I
said "hey, you look so hot and sexy right now, I want to make love to you"
and began kissing her and undressing her and slept with her every time. I
wanted her to do a strip show for me so I simply asked her "I would like you
to do a strip show for me" and she did. When I met her, I said "I would like
to take you out with me." Then just focused on being fun and easy, kissed her
on the 1st date, told her she was hot and that I wanted her. How much easier
could this be? Why fuck around with techniques when all it takes is a simple
direct expression of what you want while being focused on her, fun and
relaxed with a smile.

Clifford: While I agree that being direct (aka being honest) is the best
approach, it doesn't always work the way you are describing and a lot of
women do not give in so easily without some real warming up.

MB: There is a guy in my office who has a beer belly the size of a spare tire
yet he brought to our office Christmas party a HB9 with huge breasts. I took
him aside and asked him how he was able to get her and he said "I was just
honest. I told her I was attracted to her and that I wanted to be with her."
But, like I said before, if someone came out and said that in a system it
would not sell because in order to make sales "the higher the degree of
perceived complexity the greater the perceived value and higher the sales".
First and foremost, systems are designed to be sold, be helpful second.
> Adam: I have been doing many walk-ups in clubs regularly every weekend,
and it's
no longer a scary thing for me. I have fun with women, make them laugh, I'm
not self-critical, and I don't focus on state. I always come home with a
phone #, and I'm actually getting laid sometimes. I've come a long way, and
I can only go further.

MB: Good for you. Over the holidays I went Christmas shopping to a mall
across where I work. I saw a HB10 with a low cut miniskirt and a tight top
that barely covered her breasts while wearing a big trench coat. She walked
right by me into a store with a female companion. I waited for her to come
out and then I touched her hand to get her attention. She looked at me and
then looked back at her female fiends and did not even respond and kept
walking without ever hearing what I had to say. Could have been a lesbian.
Undaunted I went on my way and decided to actually strike up friendly
conversations with women in close proximity, that is, in line for the check
out, while browsing in stores, anywhere - a frame of being easy to talk to
with lots to say, fun and outgoing with a smile. While in this frame, I
talked to about 5 HB's and actually had 2 approach me because I first looked
at them and smiled. Although my intent was not to get numbers but just be
free and easy, I had great responses from all 7 women I talked to. (I already
have one relatively steady one and another 2 on the go and given a few more
on the go with work and the gym would be too much to handle.) But it never
hurts to stay sharp so just conversing would not hurt. So we talked about
how busy the mall was, our plans for the holidays, who we are buying for,
how much we were spending. The funny thing happened was that while talking
to one woman another one would join in the conversation just by virtue of
the two of us having a conversation. The key was just smiling at them and
generally being fun, easy and relaxed. No need for hypnosis and some
artificially induced states.
Regarding hypnosis and autosuggestions, I have tried to get women that I have
slept with to initiate sex just by creating a blow job pattern or a wild and
passionate sex pattern. The result - I would get them to think about sex but
never to actually initiate anything even though these women were ones I
already slept with before. Even when I said " feel the desire to
initiate a passionate love making session and you feel like asking for
it..." nothing happened, ever. My initial thought that autosuggestions or
hypnosis could work came as a result of being able to get women to think
about sex or a blow job but when it came for them to act upon it, my use of
the systems fell hopelessly short. In fact, some of the time women who I
did not know well but would try to do some heavy SS on would say "what are you
trying to do here, are some kind of a weirdo?" It did not take too long for
me to realize something was wrong. The simpler the better.
I work in the investment/money management industry. Over the last 50 years
if you just bought the S&P 500 index of 500 stocks you would have done
better than 98% of all active managers over the same period. All other
complicated strategies for trading, asset allocation and other nonsense
hopelessly under perform. Buying the index is simple, it makes more money
over time than virtually all other investment strategies combined yet
because it's so simple and relatively slow and unexciting and most people do
not buy it in favour of something more complicated for the promise of better
and faster results. The reason this happens is that sometimes one type of
strategy over a short time grossly over performs all others based on some
random economic phenomenon - remember the tech boom 2 years ago, people are
still talking about it and trying to buy the next hot tech stock even though
the conditions that existed back then are no longer present. People get
hooked on their short term high end success and think they have found a
panacea for quick results. However their high end results were a short term
statistical aberration with little long term consistent potential.
I see the same parallel with women. Once in a while someone will achieve
extraordinary success over a short time with some technique -
autosuggestion, hypnosis, herb extracts whatever and assume that this is the
answer to all their problems. They create a whole system around it and
market it with zeal to unsuspecting hopeless victims hoping to catch them on
their vulnerability. All the while their success was really random and
based on
very quick results on a small number of women. Think about it. What if
someone comes out and says that bin Laden will be found in June and it does
happen that person will be perceived as being some sort of a guru yet their
prediction was purely random. People will come to them for advice even
though their accurate prediction was just luck. I feel it's important to
have a healthy dose of skepticism to those who try to overcomplicate the
Being simple and just asking for what you want seems simple, almost too
simple to work and there will be times when it will not and sometimes it
will take longer to get a woman in bed than some other techniques. There
will be systems out there that will get some women into bed faster than the
simple direct approach but this number of women will be smaller than if one
just goes out there and asks for it normally. However, I believe that over
time although it may take a little longer to get women into bed, one will
actually get more women over time by being direct and simple and the women
that one does get are far more likely to stay than ones that were captured
using some other "get rich quick method."

Cliff:  The reality of "systems" is that everyone's skill levels are
different.  I have seen guys pick up SS over the course of a weekend
seminar and have massive immediate success, and others who have studied
everything and couldn't get their act together if their life depended on it.
So I don't agree with your comment that simplicity is better than
techniques - it depends on the individual, what works for them, how they do
things, etc.  I have seen guys get great results doing something that
another guy tried and totally bombed with.  There are no absolutes in this.
I don't think there is only one way to do anything -- that's part of the
reason this list exists because I know that the collective intelligence of
guys out there working on the universal challenge of getting successful
with women has resulted in a very wide range of ideas, concepts,
strategies, etc.  And I just happen to love reading about that.


> Deadeye: "Well, you aren't doing a very good job, anyway," I laughed. We
had a great hour or so with my mother, and at one point HB Italian
commented (with a small smile) "Your son is really persistent." HB Italian
said earlier she was going to a party at a friend's house. When I walked
her to her car, she made it clear she was not going to invite me to go
along. I shrugged, once again conveying "no big deal." Told her I'd call
her in a day or so, and left without going for a kiss--the vibe was wrong.
HB Italian is the most interesting of the girls I'm seeing, but her current
behaviour has me scratching my head. I know several things:
1. It is counterproductive to try to reason with a woman about why she
should be attracted to you ("We had great sex and you wanted to make all
sorts of plans with me, what's changed?") So is sounding like you're
pleading. I've kept the "Bratty little sister" frame firmly in mind at all
times. Also always used my most seductive voice (Caucasian Barry White) on
the phone since day one.
2. She is sad about the time she wasted with the ex, as he had obvious
problems. She does NOT want to get back together with him. I'm at a loss as
to what I should do to recreate the attraction on her part. Is this just a
"Christmas holiday after breakup" funk that hits some women really hard?
Should I
a) Keep doing what I'm doing -- calling every few days with some small but
specific thing I want her to do with me? (i.e. coming over and cooking
dinner with me)
b) Not call at all for a while? How long?
c) Tell her (with a smile) "Hey, I met this really great girl, and we
really hit it off. We were making plans together, and we had great sex that
was about to get even better. Now she's vanished, and I need your help to
find out if she's just away for a little while, or if she's dead. I'd like
to have this girl back, but If I know she's dead, then I'll stop thinking
about her."
d) Tell her, the next time she says something about how she wasted two
years on ex-bf and she doesn't want to waste another two, "HB Italian, NO
time you spend with me will ever be time wasted."
e) Tell her it's obvious to me she's no longer interested and ask her to
introduce me to some equally hot friends. (I don't think I'm at this point
yet, BTW)
I know I've got other irons in the fire, but this one has (or had) LTR
potential that the others do not. At age 44, I'm perhaps more interested in
self-sufficient, smart women than some of you PUAs. Suggestions from anyone
would be appreciated. I'm especially interested in what Ross would suggest.

Ciz: I bet the bf hit the gf after she confessed to getting fingered in the
car with you... Anyways...
I think, similarly to guys who get into the exclusive relationship,
engagement, marriage sort of thing, there are also guys who get, "type
casted," into the adventurous, one night fling, multiple girlfriend, sort
of thing. Maybe girls can sense this. Sort of like the movie audiences that
only accept Arnold always in action movies. We need to somehow becomes guys
like Robert De Niro, who can play tough guys, eccentric guys, mentally
deranged guys, Mafioso, CIA agents, etc. Somehow, something we project
sends out the, "not for relationship!" vibe. I do not know what it is. This
may give certain advantages to getting the quick fuck, and maybe there is a
reason why certain guys unconsciously exude this.
What to do about this? I think one of the things of girls knowing that you
have other girlfriends or have a wild sexual history is that it attracts
the younger, sexually adventurous girls, such as the girlfriend who later
got the black eye. It makes them know that you are not going to pressure
them into a relationship and that they can relax. Whereas the older girls
in their late thirties, who are not married/ and/or want kids, see red
flags at the sort of guy with the sexual history above average. These sort
can get temporary excitement out of the sexually adventurous guy, but are
socially programmed to see an awful marriage/dating relationship with this
type. Similarly, younger girls who are not sexually adventurous, share the
view of the older girls.
So, it's kind of like sickle cell disease. It protects you from malaria and
is useful in that respect, but anemia is no party.  So, can you expect to
have it both ways??? Maybe this is as good as it gets. Or, is there some
way to design a frame wherein the girl can accept a "player/reformed
player/PUA" in a long term relationship. Hey, guys have married
prostitutes, just watch the Jerry Springer show. Maybe the answer lies in
getting one of those famed bisexual girls... Or just move on to the next
hot young chick to keep your mind off of this 37 year old...


(My first MSN chat.  Comments, please)
[21:27] Me: Why do people whenever I say sailing is better than sex always
say I'm crap in bed?!
[21:27] Me: You can't base it on one outing, you have to get good, and try
all conditions.
[21:27] Me: Sometimes it's crap. Like sex I guess
[21:27] Me: But other times you get such a high you want to live off it
[21:28] Me: Like there are some bits if I even think of it my heartrate
[21:28] Her: Sounds amazing actually
[21:28] Her: And I'm sure u r great in bed
[21:28] Me: You know that feeling? When you think of something, and play it
in front of you and relive it and everything just goes boom inside?
[21:29] Her: Yes I do
[21:29] Me: With me, that's cool and that's what you look for in a sport, or
in anything
[21:30] Her: After u telling me all that I feel like I haven't lived now !
[21:30] Me: Ahh, come on Her
[21:31] Me: I'm sure you can think of a situation where you felt confident
and great about yourself and everything came together and everything was
[21:31] Me: You just have to relive it!
[21:31] Me: I can name a few of those times, and feel great just thinking
about them.
[21:32] Her: Yes, I suppose I can
[21:32] Her: But not many unfortunately lol
[21:32] Her: I suppose I will have many more to come
[21:32] Me: It doesn't matter how small the event was, it's just the
beautiful feelings you can feel about, now.
[21:34] Her: Suddenly u don't sound like someone who would cheat on his gf


> Cliff: I dated a stripper last year who
said that a guy with a tan was a huge attraction.
Those who know me know I am Mr. Pale and stay
out of the sun like poison (it is the number one cause
of making people look older) so while I appreciated
the advice, the trade off isn't worth it to me.

Dean: Commenting on getting a tan, coming from an Aussie and
as you should all know, Australia has the highest
incidence rate of skin cancer in the world, you can
get a tan. You just don't get a tan from the sun,
that's all. A tan really does makes you look healthier
and is more attractive to women. The best and safest
way to get a tan is to use the solariums/sunbeds.
When you expose yourself to the sun you are exposing
yourself to both UV A & B rays, one gives you the tan,
the other gives you sunburn and puts you at risk of
skin cancer. The Solariums/Sunbeds only expose you to
the UV B rays and thus eliminate the risk of skin
Constant tanning though, even from a sunbed, can age
you faster. A good Aloe Vera moisturizer is
recommended, this also helps in relieving sunburn.
Also, a tan from a sunbed doesn't prevent you from
getting burnt, unlike a real tan and you still need to
use sunscreen.
An alternative is to use the fake tans, a bit messy
and have a more yellowish appearance but it beats
glowing in the dark and looking like Casper the
Friendly Ghost.
Another thing to point out is that skin cancer seems
to be the most prevalent in people that expose
themselves to the sun irregularly. Studies in
Australia have proved that people who work outside in
the hot Australian sun on a regular basis don't seem
to get skin cancer, because they are constantly
exposed to it and their bodies are used to the harsh
effects of the sun.


> Cultleader: Right again. These shy guys usually understand the problem and
the solution, restating it doesn't help, they have looked at their problem
at more angles than others have.--But Mystery in a sense makes the same
error as Stephane. Like Stephane, he offers good
advice, but as I said these shy guys already know that they should take
action, restating it in more illustrious ways will not make them do 48
pickups a week.

Stephane: 'restating it in more illustrious ways', as in 'reframing' really
DOES make a big
difference physically AND mentally.  People's model of the world determines
their emotions and how they operate in the world.
> Cultleader:"Light parlor hypnotism and NLP swish techniques are too
mild, these guys need some hard core KGB brainwashing, I propose that they
come to me and for no fee up
front I will transform these nerds with Pain/drug hypnosis, bring them to a
state of transmarginalization, wipe the slate clean and then input the new

Stephane: Cute.  NLP swish techniques always work insofar as the person
doing the 'programming' is able to tailor the swish to that particular
individual.  And I have rarely met
a master practitioner that really knew how to build a decent swish!  The
swish pattern
in NLP is by now archaeology and there have actually been more developments
in the
field of NLP since 1982, including DHE and the new NHR.  With that said, a
good swish
ain't mild if you know how to build it.
Could you explain a little more about KGB brainwashing?
> Mark B: My little sister called me today and admitted that she slept
with her
new boyfriend for the first time. This is the same guy who she told not to
call her again because he talked too much about his other women. He kept on
being persistent and finally scored. When I asked what finally changed her
mind she said he was free and easy with her and that turned her on. She
said that he said he wanted to sleep with her and she said she was unsure
but he went ahead began undressing and kissing her anyways and she did not
resist him. Instead of asking he just took charge, went for what he wanted
and scored. She also said that he was not as well hung as her previous
boyfriend but that he knew how to use what he had and that made up for any
difference in size and actually exceeded anything the previous boyfriend
ever did.  I asked what finally turned her she said that he just took
charge and took
what he wanted and that took any and all uncertainty away from her. She
said being with him sexually was the best experience she ever had because
he took charge and was a leader throughout the experience - she just laid
back and had fun. Good for her.........."

Stephane: Mark, it never ceases to amaze me how comfortable you are in
talking so deeply
about sex with your sister.  She is lucky to have a bro like you.  Could
you please explain to the rest of us insecure/immature dumb asses HOW you are
able to talk so freely about sex with your little sister?  I mean, you even
recommended to her that she should get into the porn business!  What are
your views
on this?

We've had this debate before with Mys. He gets on his high horse,
and goes off on his "Hypnosis is bullshit" rant. Then we all
respond to him, and it goes back and forth a few rounds and then
it all settles down ... until it starts back up again.
He's got one point, and he makes it well: the only way to develop
a skill is via practice. But Ross, Major Mark, and Vizzini have
been singing that song for longer than anyone else on this list.
And then this other guy weighs in about some guy who's spent all
this money on Ross/Tom/Mark products and then can't control his
state. Guess what guys: state control is a skill! You get skills
by practicing. You don't practice, and you don't get the skills.
By gosh he's right about the other guy's lack of skills. He's
probably got those UC tapes, listened to them once, or stopped
halfway through, or maybe even learned what's on them so he could
impress other people by talking about them but is too lazy to
Hypnosis and NLP are not about to turn some drab dweeb into a
vibrant walkup machine. That's not the point. It's not intended
to. What they can do really well is give that drab dweeb the
proper frame of mind to go out and learn to be an operator, if
his beliefs and attitudes are stopping him from walking out the
He reminds me of those doctors, who having spent several years
desperately short of sleep to get their jobs, aren't about to let
the next generation have it any easier, even if it kills a few


>Chrisonic: I will post here the approach which got me the hottest girl I
ever kissed. I never read about a similar approach on those seduction
sites, so I would like to see your comments. I was in a club with a friend
drinking some beers. After 6 or 7 cans of beer, we decided to approach 2

Sergio: This is sounding bad already. Guys that go up approaching girls
drunk off their arse are the kinda guys I blow out of the water. But as I
read on it just gets better...
> Chrisonic: Both were 6 or 6,5. Mine had a nice face, but her body was a
little flat. I used the well known AFC approach: "You are nice, What's your
name, where do you live," and all this old shit... After 7 or 8 minutes of
talking, I succeeded and kiss closed. I think it happened because she liked
my look. My friend succeeded with the other girl also.

Sergio: Good work. Purely AFC but who honestly gives a fuck? You closed.
There's a hell of a lot of people reading all this seduction shit, learning
how to elicit values and reading up about how to be a alphamale that just
don't close. You closed. Congrats. All the old fat smelly 40 year old SS
students will come back spouting bitterly about how you're a "young
attractive guy, yadda, yadda, yadda...." So? If you've got it use it!
Before I discovered SS I used to use the same sorta approaches with
unpredictable results. Go up with a mate to a two-set or three-set when I'm
a little tanked up. Spout some fluff and try my luck. Sometimes it worked,
sometimes (most of the time) it didn't.
> Chrisonic: At some point I needed to pee, so told my girl I was going to
the bathroom and she said ok. When I came back, I noticed a girl who I
thought was the same girl I kiss closed some minutes before (actually it
wasn't the same girl. The girl was an HB10 with a similar face and a super
hot body! The club was very crowded and I was kind of drunk, so I couldn't
realize that).

Sergio: This is bad. I used to get so slaughtered that sometimes I'm making
mistakes like that, but this isn't helpful at all. Some people say you
shouldn't drink at all when out on the pull. That's cool. A lot of those
guys could probably whip my arse in a club and get more girls and get
hotter girls than I can. I don't see a problem with drinking, but I do see
a problem where you drink so much you're losing control. I always want to
be in control. I might slur my words, but I still know what I'm saying and
doing. Obviously you KNEW what you were doing, just going up to the girl
you had just closed but drink had caused your brain to become a little
sloppy and lazy. Not good.
> Chrisonic: An AFC was hitting on her (HB10) and she was laughing, so I
became angry and very aggressive (thinking HB10 was the girl I had already

Sergio: OK this is where I start to get pissed off on my own. I don't know
but from this entire account you sound like the guy I wouldn't want to go
out for a night on the town with. I hate aggressive drunks. Some guy was
talking to her? Shit man, sort him out straight away! Oh but it gets
worse.... she was laughing? I'm not even 20 so I don't wanna sound like an
old man dishing out advice from my days in World War Two or anything but
lose the aggression. Not only is it not cool, it gets you into trouble.
> Chrisonic: I tapped the AFC's shoulder and said to him:  Me: Hey man,
this is my girl. Don't bother her. AFC: Ok. I was just talking to her... So
I bypassed the AFC and went to the girl in a very aggressive-ultra
confident way and with an angry look in my face (don't forget I WAS NOT
pretending I was angry. I was, in fact, angry!):

Sergio:  If you were sober would you react this way? Or had you drunk so
much you had lost control? I don't wanna go on and on about the perils of
drinking - fuck I like to drink like a motherfucker! I'm from Europe where
we've been drinking with our family since we're 5 -- I just don't like it
when I lose control. So I don't drink so much I lose control. If you would
be like that when sober (and remember what happened -- you left a girl to
go to the loo and when you came back she was talking to a..... GUY!) then I
feel sorry for you. You'll get yourself into a hell of a lot of fights. You
might work out, you might be able to get out of them no problem, but
personally I prefer to avoid them all together.
> Chrisonic: Me: What are you thinking!? You can't do that to me, cause
I'll kick your butt if you try!

Sergio: Nice communication skills.
> Chrisonic: HB10: (looking puzzled but with a little smile in her face)
Are you crazy? What did you say to the guy (the AFC)I was talking to?

Sergio: OK you talk a lot about this smile of hers. I don't want to jump to
any conclusions (he says before he quickly jumps to a conclusion) but was
this a "Hey, this guy is sooooo funny smile!" or was it a nervous "This guy
is fucking weird.... what the fuck is he going to do to me?" Although if
you're drunk you probably can't notice the difference.
> Chrisonic: Me: Yeah, I am crazy, so what!? (I think at this moment I put
my 2 hands on the wall, so she couldn't go away, if she wanted.) That's not
the way things are if you are with me!!

Sergio: Me Tarzan, you Jane.

Deadeye said at another point in Cliff's e-mail:
> Deadeye: She informs us she's broken up with bf after he became upset
over the fact that she had 3 different kinds of soap, and shoved her
against the wall to make his point (where do women find these morons?).

Sergio: He said it -- not me!
> Chrisonic: HB10: (still with a smile in her face) Are you crazy? Me: I
am crazy, and you won't get out of here without kissing me! No way! (I
tried to kiss, she turned her face. Notice that at this point I'm still
thinking she is the same girl I kiss closed before!)

Sergio: Notice that at this point you are a drunk "moron" sexually
harassing someone. She's turning away as you try and kiss? So you try again?
> Chrisonic: HB10: (she simulated a reaction pushing one of my arms, but
it was obvious she didn't want to get rid of me, cause she was still with
that smile on her face)

Sergio: What are you doing?  "She simulated a reaction pushing one of my
arms." Well it's good that in your drunken state WHERE YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE
you can still tell the difference between a girl that's just pretending to
be scared and one that actually is. I can imagine you telling the cops
later 'She wanted it really, she was just messing!'
> Chrisonic: Me: I am telling you, you won't get out of here without
kissing me! (I tried to kiss her again, she turned her face a little bit,
but I reached the side of her mouth. She had the same smile, still. I'm
still thinking she is the girl I kiss closed before! I thought that her
resistance was BS/test)

Sergio: OK, let's say it was the girl you had kiss closed before. Let's say
you had chased off a suitor hitting on YOUR girl. I still wouldn't be too
comfortable about this BS Test. What's she sorting her guys for -- rapists?
> Chrisonic: Me: (I say something along the same lines, hug her tight and
tongue her this time.) When I looked down to her body I realized she wasn't
the same girl and instead a super HB10. I thought to myself: What the
fucking heck!!

Sergio: Was this before or after puking up all over her?
> Chrisonic: I couldn't believe I had just kiss closed an HB 10 in less
than 5 minutes!!! My friend couldn't belive it also. He saw me kissing this
girl that every guy in the club wanted and sort of froze.

Sergio: Hey man, I've got a great technique! I've got one where you can
fuck close a HB10 in less than 5 minutes! You just get a long piece of rope
and an iron bar and hang around a deserted parking lot late at night...
anyone on list can ask if they want further details!
> Chrisonic:  That happened in 1999. Back then I was a complete AFC (I
still am kind of an AFC, but I'm trying hard to get out of AFCness). Now I
am trying to figure out how to systemize this kiss close and repeat this

Sergio: OK in all seriousness man. I don't know if I've pissed you off or
anything, I don't really think you're a complete moron or anything. I don't
mean to offend I'm just trying to look out for you. Good luck getting out
of AFCness. I don't pretend to be an expert. A lot of the time I still use
AFC techniques. The biggest things I've learned from all this online
seduction techniques and SS is a.) Attitude. That will take you sooooooo
far on it's own. b.) when talking elicit positive states. Talk about how it
feels for great stuff to happen. I don't worry too much about binds and
anchoring, because if I'm there and she's feeling great it will be anchored
to me anyway. I've tried some "aggressive" moves. Pulling girls over to me
in clubs, I've pinched arses as they walk past and come up right behind
them for a grind and all that shit. I don't do it so much now. I don't like
the percentages. The amount of people that get pissed off -- and not just
the girls! There are sluts this will work with. There are sluts who if you
go up and squeeze their titties in a club WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING if they
don't find you too unattractive they will make out, possibly screw with
you. And they are sluts. That doesn't really bother me. I don't mind making
out with sluts too much occasionally. But a lot of other girls.... and I am
primarily talking about youngish girls18-25 here it may well backfire. I've
never got in serious trouble. Just dirty looks and "Fuck offs!" and
occasionally some boyfriend/protector wanting trouble. In fact, I tell a
lie when I say I don't do it so much now, I don't do it at all now! The
only arses I squeeze in clubs are those belonging to girls I know, who
might do an offended face but squeeze mine twice at first if I'm walking
past them at college! But that's enough of my life story. You can look into
this "approach" more. You can get down a technique, I'll help you out
buddy. If you want to do it probably every time you don't wanna be that
drunk, but you wanna seem drunk, so pour a pint of beer down your top and
get some booze on your breathe. Find a girl being "talked to" by an AFC...
only one who looks weaker than you, (the HB and the AFC that is!) and go up
and do your thing. Let us
know how it goes. Try it 20 times and see if it gets you 20 kiss closes or
20 years! It's not really my cup of tea.
> Chrisonic: I think It will only work with HB 8, 9, 10 or the ones who
like male aggression.

Sergio: Yeah, probably. Can you tell that though? Can you tell she's not
the girl who knows the bouncers and gets all finicky about
anybody even thinking about touching her? Dangerous approach. I see links
with the anchoring video people have been talking about, pressurizing
people into what they don't wanna do. I prefer to covertly persuade people
it's something they do wanna do. Where she will think it's her idea. I
don't wanna force myself on girls.
> Chrisonic: What do you think? Perhaps Nightlight9 has similar approaches...

Sergio: I don't wanna comment for Nightlight9 but his approaches seem to
me...... less aggressive. You can tell if someone's not open to them
straight away. In yours, even if they're there screaming "LET ME OUT YOU
CREEP!" you carry on with your Stanley Kowalski impression and don't let
them go. Good luck with your ascent from AFCness and keep us posted on
other novel ideas. This sorta thing happens in clubs alot and it's good to
discuss. I mean jeez, everyone might think it's a cool idea! Sorry if it
sounded like I was biting your head off but I'd tread very, very carefully
using techniques like that.


> Mark B: Better to say "I want to make love to YOU"
rather than "I love to fuck." Saying you just want to
fuck makes it seem that you want to use her as a piece
of meat. Many guys think they are appealing to her by
being "open" to sex when in fact they turn her off. I
have never had a woman slap me, run away or otherwise
turn away when I told her I wanted to make love to
her. In fact, after indicating my sexual interest in
her, women tend to come close and develop a greater
contact with me. To me, this seems to be the ultimate
compliment to woman as long as the focus is on YOU
MAKING LOVE TO HER, not just making love or fucking in
general. Subtle but important

B.L.: This is great stuff. I've actually tried this before,
and while I didn't get to fuck this girl, she totally
seemed to get into me. She didn't react badly at all.
She basically just said, "Really? Why is that?" No
slap, no running away...It was a pure 100% positive
result. She opened up to me after that. I didn't
even realize the value in it until now. What I want
to know is when do you usually use this? It seems to
me to be too strong for an opener, but maybe quite
soon after starting conversation? Do you use this at
a certain point in your pick up? What about on
younger, more immature girls, have you had the same
results with them?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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