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Hmmm, there’s just one more thing I need to check
1/9/02 6:17:09 PM Eastern Standard Time


Poetdude: Recent discovery: all women are little girls on the inside. It is
a truly rare woman who is sexually aggressive, knows what she wants or is
good in bed -- and one who is all three is practically nonexistent.  So it
is always, ALWAYS up to us to find them, lead them, demonstrate to them
what's been missing and show them a good time.  I just spent New Year's Eve
(and day) with this one cutie, and I found that at age 28, she had never
had an orgasm with a guy -- ooohhhh my God.  And I'm finding that this is
totally commonplace... so go get 'em, cowboy.  We've got what the other
boys, past and future, simply don't have.  To summarize: women are not
scary; *we* are. hehehe.


> MB: I have discovered, painfully so, that unfortunately women make the
decision as to whether they want you around for the long term and when an
AFC indicates that first he is toast.

JM: I'm confused. If you have choice with fucking women, are you really not
at choice for something long term when you want it, or am I misinterpreting
what you said?

MB: If you are fucking women then you are fucking them. Whether that goes
further than that I find is usually up to the woman and if she wants more
she will suggest she wants more, talk about more or imply she wants more in
some sort of way. Women seem to be more relationship oriented in general
and when they feel like you are a good candidate for one they will let you
know they want one and define the terms. Men tend to be more sex oriented
and are
expected to be the ones that express the want and desire for it. I feel
that reversing the roles and asking for a relationship first feminizes the
male and makes him look weak and desperate. Similarly, women feel that if
they express their sexual desire they will be labelled cheap, slutty and
easy. I feel that it's best to stay in the right role and express your
desire for her as a sexual being and allow her to express hers for you as a
potential relationship candidate if she is inclined that way as that is the
acceptable thing for her to do. If she does not then she never wanted one
anyway and only saw you as a fuck buddy. Go see "Vanilla Sky" and see what
I mean. Some
women will say they just do not want a relationship because in their mind
that implies some sort of a heavy time and effort commitment, but fucking
once in a while and seeing each other for a movie may be O.K.  In real life
on first dates whenever I discussed relationships, not even a
relationship of me with her but even just in general, I rarely saw the
woman again either because I did not want to be in a position where I felt
I had to be in one that fast or she did not want one so soon either. Every
woman I have ever boned my goal at the beginning was just to have fun with
her and see where things went without any expectations from one another for
beyond the moment. My two LTR's began this way actually. We just talked
about our jobs, what we like to do for fun, our values, etc. Even while
asking out an HB some say "I am not ready for a relationship right now" or
"I am not into dating right now" so it's better at least for me to imply
that I want to do something specific with her for the moment such as a
movie or a
club or go to the beach rather than "I want to go out with you" which in
their mind may mean "go out as in repeatedly" - not good. To suggest a
simple activity rather than "dating" or "going out" reduces your perceived
"need for a relationship" and actually increases your chances to see her as
you are not asking her for too much in terms of commitment.  So if they say
to me "I am not ready for a relationship" when I ask them out I say "who is
talking about one, let's go to see that movie together". After a few times
out together and a couple of good boning sessions she'll say "where is this
going and where do you see us in the future" - bingo. She is yours and will
justify why she agreed to one through some crazy chick logic.
This brings up an important point. Go to and read "What
a chick says is not what she means" and you'll see what I mean. Chicks will
use the craziest logic to justify their actions but in many times just a
slight variation on what they say can mean a world of difference. Once I
boned an HB who had an AFC for a BF. When I asked her why she cheated on her
BF, she said she was not really cheating because her relationship already
ended with him in her mind although she was still with him. Strange if you
ask me. This is where they will see you even if they say they do not want a
relationship when you can suggest that what you have is not really a
relationship but a casual friendship where you fuck. Then it's O.K. for
her, but really what the hell is the difference........


Mark B.:
> Ciz: I have been formulating a theory lately. Here goes. Chicks with low
self esteem need outside validation and are much too turned off by guys who
are too hot for them. These chicks seek to be surrounded by guys who are
less hot than they are in order to buttress their self image. Chicks with
regular self esteem accept guys on their level of looks. Chicks with an
inflated sense of self esteem, usually go for much hotter guys than
themselves and seek the ability to dominate the much hotter guys. So, how
does this apply to PU? We need to PU girls with low self esteem only if
they are intrinsically very hot, say 8-10. The girls with inflated self
esteem, we ought to bust their balls (ala Sis and Mystery neg hit), and if
we are comparable in looks to the average self esteemed chicks we should be
direct (ala Mark B). In the case we are less hot than a girl with average
self esteem, then we should bust their balls/neg hit. And, finally, for the
case of the low rating HB/UG borderline with low self esteem, we must
compliment them to build them up so that they can accept us being hotter
than them.

MB: I have found that complements work wonders in helping to make her
attach good feelings to you. However, it also seems that the more specific
they are the better rather than just a general comment on her beauty. I
like to say "I think you are stunningly beautiful. You have a great genetic
structure with pleasing lines and you exude vital amounts of feminine
energy." This
sounds like you made a great assessment of their looks and took time to
appreciate it. In fact while fucking I have been able to double or even
triple the number of orgasms and their intensity of women just by telling
them how good the feel and how great they look and how much I enjoy fucking
them. SO EVIL.
> Nightlight9: If a girl thinks you won't judge her she will feel free to
be free with her feelings and personal information. The easiest way to feel
she won't be judged is to share your feelings (this doesn't mean that's
always the right thing to do). If you are talking to a girl and you think
she smokes pot. You can say "Yeah, me and a friend were smoking pot".
You'll be amazed by the rapport you just gained because A) she sees you
have something in common and B) it takes balls and honesty to admit that
you do that openly to her.

MB: SO true,my man. When a new HB asks me why I am single I say "well so
far no woman has been able to match the abilities of my right hand, see
these calluses" (I have them from weight training) which I show her then we
share a good laugh. On the phone I say "You know while we talk I can't help
but think about your pussy and what it's doing" or "I just took a hot
shower, jerked off while thinking about fucking you" They usually will say
"yeah, me too, I
play with myself all the time, even at work I slip into the bathroom." This
way I show them that they can be just as free to express themselves and
they do. In fact, women tell me about their pap smear appointments,
menstrual cramps, vaginal odors, yeast infections, all sorts of crap but
all because I tell them first about myself. My favourite story is how I was
circumcised at
the age of 15 because I could not retract my foreskin (phimosis). This is
so private and intimate that after that they feel they can also share
anything with me. Hey, Nightlight9 send me a plane ticket to Seattle and we
can hunt together for a few days.
This weekend I went out with a couple of buds to a local bar/club just
outside of Toronto. We walked around the bar a few times and noticed
something interesting. While walking around we would say "hello" and
immediately women would smile, come closer, laugh and motion us to continue
as if they wanted to be taken. We parked ourselves (3 of us) in one section
with busy traffic. As HB's walked by we would grab their asses - we got
smiles, laughs and grins. Then a couple of babes walked by we just said
"hey, babes" they stopped and started talking. They stayed for the whole
night, made out with the three of us and asked to be fucked that night. We
declined the offer to fuck but took their numbers instead as we had decided
that we came together and we would leave together. Really all we did was
just look them in the eye, minimal talking, lots of touching and just going
for the kiss. We did was not really focus on the conversation but just the
holding of attention through deep eye contact and smiling. It seemed that
just noticing them and looking at them caused them to fill in the blanks in
the conversation and you just respond. Sometimes I think that we all make
it harder than it really has to be. Rent the movie American Beauty and
notice the guy with the camera. He barely says a word but just looks at her
and smiles and gets the girl.
This got me thinking and looking back some of my best pickup lines have
been "Hey, sexy" "Hi there", "Hello, gorgeous" and the classic "hi" and
then just allowing her to do most of the talking from there, allowing her
to fill in the blanks and responding to what she says, but of course
leading where you want to go. You create the frame, she fills it in. In
fact, trying to dominate
conversations seems to have a negative effect almost as if making it seem
that you do not care to listen to her and try to push your own agenda thus
turning her off.
On another note, in front of us at the club we noticed a fat Asian guy. He
was rather physically unattractive with oily skin and a fat stomach and no
ass and really no forehead but he looked like he was having the time of his
life. As HB's walked by, even 9's and 10's he would grab them and start
dancing. They would start laughing and some of them would actually stay and
dance with him. He had a huge smile in his face and seemed lots of fun.
Near the end of the night, he was all over an HB9 with long brown hair and
a killer body and she looked to be into him as well. We left so I am not
sure what happened but they looked close and comfortable together.


> MB: If a woman has not had a dose of your personality what other basis
other than looks can she approach you on? Once the looks have sunk in, she
stays by virtue of one's personality. I have fucked up plenty of good
situations while women have approached me or with women who were very
responsive at first by not being fun or allowing things weighing in my mind
affect me.

Ross: MOST guys NEVER have a woman approach them first. You simply are not
able to acknowledge what having great looks will get you and what it will
allow you to SKIP OVER.
> MB: Yes, but wait right here and let's make a very clear distinction. I,
too, have said "HB you are the best, I want to be with you because you make
me complete as a man and I like you a lot and would like to be with you"
only to get the inevitable boot from virtually every woman I have ever said
this to. But when I have said "I think you are hot. You have stunning eyes
and are super sexy. I find you very attractive." No woman have ever, ever
walked away from that. The key difference is the first is a need for her
for the long term which is a sign of weakness and makes them run. The
second one is an appreciation of her in the moment and makes her
feel  wanted and desired but it is not a request to have her for the long term.

Ross:  I think that is an awesome distinction. WELL DONE. I agree. And
simply telling a woman that, absent having the looks she likes, won't do
much more than get your foot in the door, if that. YOU don't have to do
more than that. We guys who aren't so hot looking do. That is my only point.


Ross, from what I understand, you like to be pretty wild in your
introductions to and interactions with people, so keeping that in mind, I
think you should reframe the dull old portrait photo approach (nice double
entendre, Dolemite!). Even a good portrait can looked canned or somehow
"artificial," and they often aren't a good indication of how a person looks
in real life. After all, it was taken in a studio (can you say
retouching?), and some people's "natural" smiles during a photo session can
look really strained. Now I've never posted a personal ad, but I take a lot
of pictures, and over the years have noticed that women respond the most to
pictures that
have either a true feeling of closeness (people obviously in love) or some
kind of action/zaniness in them. Maybe a picture of you playing some sport
or doing some hobby would do the trick: skiing, surfing, boating, cycling,
hiking, etc. Whatever it is, it should be something that you TRULY enjoy.
An "action" photo should appeal to another's sense of adventure and
excitement, and women who like adventure and excitement are the are the
kinds of women
we want to be with, right? The picture doesn't need to be a close-up, in
fact it shouldn't be, but it should indicate what you look like. An
expression on your face like you're really going for it and having the time
of your life is a VERY powerful thing, and opening your mouth wide and like
you're whooping or laughing hard also has the added bonus of somewhat
distorting your face so if you ain't Brad Pitt, you can at least peak their
curiosity. There are other potential pluses too: hats and helmets can hide
receding hairlines, and team uniforms can look really sharp on many
people.  In addition, a shirtless beach pic, if you're in really good
shape, could
act as a sexual trigger, or at least tell your potential mate that you take
good care of yourself, but it's a gamble that has obvious risks. Another
risk is that they'll stereotype you with whatever activity you're doing.
For instance, hiking = granola head, surfing = dumb surfer dude, etc..
However, if you're responding to an ad, and have a pic of yourself doing an
activity they've
listed in their profile, you're in like Flynn! Hope this helps.


> NightLight9: I'd like to watch you work. I can't do what you described
because when I do, women say no. Maybe it's my looks, maybe it's my
personality or maybe it's something else, but it just doesn't work. I have
to be funny, interesting and create a connection first.
>Ross: Same here. You are missing the point; MB has said he's very good
looking and women often approach him first, based on that, when he hasn't
even said a word. If I had that degree of physical attractiveness, I could
do the same thing.

NightLight9: I've been thinking about what it's like to be really good
looking (as a guy). Here's why I think this is important. I'm an average
looking guy. Some women think I'm cute... some don't, but I work out
regularly, look better than average naked, dress well, wear an appropriate
amount of cologne, etc. The reality is that women's opinion on looks
changes as they interact with you. So being OK looking is plenty if you can
open well and attract. Anyway, I # closed an ex-model the other night who
has been talking to me on phone regularly (she's a little f-ed up so I'm
keeping my distance sarge wise).  She said she thought I was insecure about
my looks
(which I didn't think was true, but that kind of think is hard to say for
sure), regardless, it doesn't matter if I am or not. I gave out the vibe
that I was.  So the question is, how do you model being a (cool) good
looking guy (who has been one for a while)? I know much of our general PUA
theory is actually fairly similar to a model of this. Qualify her, assume
the sale, etc.
However, what about how good looking guys really think about themselves?
The closest parallel I could draw was how I feel about my intelligence and
my snow boarding. My whole life I've had to meter what I say because people
both respect but also fear and dislike intelligence given certain
situations (I'm sure almost everyone on this list knows what I'm talking
Similarly, good snow boarders like to go snow boarding with me, but not if
I brag that I'm great. Instead, I have to be cool about it and do/say
things that give away that I'm confident in my ability without coming off
as an asshole.
Being a good looking guy must have a whole set of similar problems and
pitfalls. One thing's for sure: good looking guys don't think about being
good looking. They think about getting what they want. They know how they
look is a feature of the terrain involved. You might want to start
incorporating this into your model of the world since you are a good
looking guy.
>Mark B.: Yes, but wait right here and let's make a very clear
distinction. I, too, have said "HB you are the best, I want to be with you
because you make me complete as a man and I like you a lot and would like
to be with you" only to get the inevitable boot from virtually every woman
I have ever said this to. But when I have said "I think you are hot. You
have stunning eyes and are super sexy. I find you very attractive." No
woman have ever, ever walked away from that.

NightLight9: I think you may be onto something. I'm beginning to piece this
(Mark's MO) together I think, and I also think I'm beginning to see how it
works. There is the Woody Allen AFC way most guys compliment a woman.  It's
like they dropped a bomb and now they are waiting for it explode. "You are
soooo beautiful." Sincerest puppy dog look. This does not work (until you
are in a relationship with them, even then I'm not sure how effective it
is). Mark is not doing this, I don't believe. His compliment is almost a
challenge (not an overt or intentional one). He doesn't sit there and gage
the reaction to see how she's taking it and to see if it "worked". He just
continues with his conversation like it was normal for him to say this (not
like he says it everyday, but like it wasn't some event). I don't know if
I'm doing a good job of explaining this. But this is what made me come to
this realization so maybe it will help you. I had an incredible first
meeting with this chick the other day that I picked up in the gym. It
lasted from 9:30 AM to 7:00 AM +1 day. By the end of the night she was
telling me how beautiful I am over and over (this was after a lot of
rapport building and connection building).
At first I was like "whatever". But after she did it a bunch of times it
became apparent to me that I was really enjoying it because she was very
sincere and she wasn't trying to get some sort of response from me. She was
just enjoying telling me. This was creating an incredibly powerful state in
me. I believe that this could be done to a woman, no problem.
>MB: [snip] Hell, even my mother slept with about 30 men [snip] simply
because they told her she was beautiful. I saw some of these guys and
frankly some of them make Jabba the Hut look like George Clooney. When I
asked her why she did what she did, she said "They made me feel desired and
attractive and I could not help but respond." Was their attractiveness an
issue? No. Was the way they made her feel an issue? Yes. Simply put, even
if you lack the look but can make a women feel desirable and sexy she will
respond to you.

NightLight9: I'm starting to think Mark is onto something.


> NEEDHELPBAD: On a touchy subject - has anyone out there ever had
problems getting it up? I'm a young guy but I've been having the disastrous
"erectile disfunction" problem quite often for some time. Is there anyone
who has experienced this problem before? Right now I use Viagra but I don't
want to get stuck using it for the rest of my life. Obviously this makes
entering a sexual relationship a BILLION times more difficult. On a few
occasions, women have dumped me point blank because of my "problem" and I
simply can't go on living like this. I've been to psychotherapy (I'm quite
confident that this is psychogenic and not physiological) before but it
wasn't useful (probably specific therapist related) and I really feel stuck
(and actually quite desperate for a solution). I would really appreciate
help with this.

Stephane: Too much education is a leading cause of erectile
difficulties.  Based on your writing style, I'm willing to guess that
you're not the most exciting and confident guy in bed.
Milton Erickson once cured this married couple that hadn't been able to
engage in the intimacies of the marital union and produce any children
because the husband suffered from erectile disfunction.  Both the husband
and wife expressed fully and regretfully the pain of not being
able to ....
Milton listened to their stuffy and proper account of the problem which was
by the husband in a most educated manner.  To this account Milton
responded, "Why don't you just fuck for fun and pray to the devil that she
doesn't get knocked up for a few months?!"
A monkey looks at a banana and says to himself,"eat it."  He sees a female
monkey and says to himself, "Fuck her now."  The monkey never asks,"What if
I can't get it up again?  Maybe she'll laugh and tell everybody!"  That
shit doesn't ever happen with monkeys...they don't have as much
consciousness as we humans do. Only humans can screw up something as simple
as fucking.  You don't see an impotent monkey or a bashful dog.
It's not that God didn't give you a good enough brain or a good enough
dick.  You have a great mind (and I'm sure) a great schlong.  So what's
your problem?  This: God gave you JUST ENOUGH BLOOD to run one OR the other!
The point I am trying to make is that you impotent guys really need to give
yourselves permission to be a sweaty horny hog and stop the pre-sex
worries.  If you were making the pictures in your mind that I make in my
mind during intercourse (what I call 'fucking') then you wouldn't be
impotent : )
Dick control is like mind control only easier.  Guys who are impotent
(psychologically) are trying to solve the problem in such a way that it
reinforces it.  If your brain is working overtime when you should be
sweating and pumping, then you'll go limp.  Remember -- it's one or the
other.  Either you are running the brain OR you are running the penis.
The secret to getting over any difficulty is in educating yourself to go
beyond it....except for with impotence.  Keep your education and your
conscious mind out of the bedroom and turn on the Old brain for a while.
What kind of sounds and pictures do you make in your mind as you are
getting all naked and ready to slide your hard cock deep deep inside her
until she feels more deeply fucked than she has ever felt before?  What
kind of pictures did that bring to mind?  I bet you could learn the art of
dirty-talking too.  Go to the supermarket and pickup a cheesy paperback
porno book and read it out loud a couple of times until you can describe to
someone what it feels like to experience your hard cock as it slowly slides
out of a woman's hot wet mouth and it slowly pulls out some of that excess
saliva which hangs between her tongue and the tip of your cock until it
finally snaps and lands on your balls and inner thigh and when it does your
body jerks ever so slightly because the saliva is cold and wet and sends a
shiver up your spine.

I bet you're afraid to talk like that to women.  I hope you'll be as
surprised as I was when I discovered that 99.999999999999% of the women out
there all love to be dirty-talked.  Sexnosis will help you.
If you have a girlfriend now and she knows you can't get it up without
Viagra then perhaps you should consider finding another girl to help you
get over your impotence, such as a prostitute.  Don't fuck the prostitute,
just hire her to come in and suck your dick for a few hours.  When you're
with a prostitute you might find it easier to learn how to shut off your
brain and turn on your dick because you can't possibly care what a
prostitute thinks.  You should even be able to tell the prostitute what you
are doing.  Just be sure to have 2 or 3 shots of your favorite hard liquor
before you begin.  Can you send me a Viagra pill in the mail in exchange
for the free advice? (joking)
Of course, I'm just talking out of my ass right now and having a little
fun.  I don't know you or your situation and erectile dysfunction can be
caused by many factors, including diet.  Good luck and try not to take it
too seriously.  You've always got Viagra to back you up anyway...
>Stephane: Mark, it never ceases to amaze me how comfortable you are in
talking so deeply about sex with your sister. She is lucky to have a bro
like you. Could you please explain to the rest of us insecure/immature dumb
asses HOW you are able to talk so freely about sex with your little sister?
I mean, you even recommended to her that she should get into the porn
business! What are your views on this?
> MB: I am not sure how to take this question from you? What do you mean by
"insecure/immature dumb asses" and why do you find it amazing? Regarding
your question we just have been very open with each other as far back as I
can remember.

Stephane: I know ALOT of guys that would NEVER talk like that with their
sisters. It's taboo to most guys, I would think.  I agree that one should
be able to discuss sex issues with one's sister as frankly and freely as
you do with your best friends.  And it's amazing because it's rare and
valuable. OK?
> Ross: However, we KNOW from very painful experience, what happens when
we tell a
girl how WE feel, when SHE feels little or NOTHING for us. When has this
EVER changed a girl's mind?

Stephane:  It's all in the delivery.  Alot of guys really don't know how to
make themselves
vulnerable and sincere AND be the bad boy simultaneously.  I've stopped
trying to change their mind.  Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good NLP
session but I'm just not trying to elicit and evoke her processes of
attraction these days.  That's because I'm at a point in my life where I
have to focus on my own decisions for a while.
> Stephane: These days I've been having crazy successes by using a
'qualification frame'. I just boldly ask her you have a BF?
Do you live with your parents? What do you do for a living? etc. etc. and
then saying, "Have a drink with me." Actually, I don't ONLY do that, but
I'm giving you a bare skeleton. You guys are going to have to wait for the
book to come out (soon, I promise) to get to the good stuff : )
> NightLight9: You can't just ask questions like this without framing them
and contextualizng if you hope to close. You can ask these if you have
rapport and have established that you are someone she wants to converse
with. The reasons are two fold. 1) it indicates a great deal of interest in
her personal life (you really need a transition to start this type of
questioning); 2) if she hasn't decided that she wants to talk to you, this
line of questioning doesn't change that in a positive way, and by taking up
conversation time it's closing the window on your opportunity to change
that in a positive way. It seemed like this would be confusing to newbies
(unless I'm the one who is confused and you do just start peppering them
with questions, if so, explain).

That's why I wrote "Actually, I don't ONLY do that, but I'm giving you a
bare skeleton."  So I wouldn't have to write more than that.  Of course, I
interject directness with humor and rapport.  And they don't always
appreciate my humor or my rapport. Actually,NL9, you just wrote my answer
for me:
> NightLight9:  "I want a back massage, will you give me one?" Add
"please" when necessary. I don't ask for sex. I just do stuff to them until
they rip my clothes off, but still the attitude is very similar. The other
day I said to a women, "I am in more dire need of blowjob than any man in
the free world." She happily obliged. Right before she started she said
"You are so spoiled" and I said "Maybe." Anyway, I agree that you should
set your relationships up in such a way that you are being blunt in your
commentary and the expectations you have from her. It makes life much easier.


Dwacon (Vom feuer schmeckt es besser
> SWINGGCAT: However, if you look like a complete dork, it is going to
make life a lot more difficult.

Dwacon:  Very good point... but it is not only about being stylish
however... it depends on the crowd.  What works great in one instance will
kill you in another.  I met this HB in a bar and she organizes these social
events in the DC area... and she gave me an invite to her party with a note
"wear leather."  So I show up wearing leather head to toe and walk into a
room full of suits, ties and gowns.  Well, I at least had fun doing the
sheepdog thing... move to one side of the room and watch everyone move to
the opposite side... then repeat.  Later, I went to a club where the invite
said to dress fashionable so I wore suit and tie.  The majority of guys getting
action were wearing jeans and street clothing... I (and the other similarly
dressed guys) got liquid nitrogen.
> SWINGGCAT: ...many hot little girls go there TO HAVE FUN

Dwacon: Amen.  When I was out for New Year's Eve, I saw this HB with a very
interesting gown on... the top was kind of like an open drawer or shelf
that her boobs were laying in.  Just laying flat in this open shelf.  My
challenge was to keep my eyes above the bridge of her nose... which I
pulled off.  I asked her if her dress made her feel naughty.  This got her
and while she was mentally processing that I led her (and her married
friend) into some fun patterns... weaving in some bits of reconnaissance I
pulled from them, then turned back on them so as to make them feel they
knew me.  She was receptive to a lot of kino and things were going great...
but I was catching too many other HBs in my peripheral vision so I asked her to
meet me in the large ballroom while I got a drink.  I never saw her after
that, D-OHH...

Later, I noticed that one of the ballrooms (the Salsa/Merengue room) was
empty and this HB 7½ was standing around... apparently her date left her to
do something... so I asked her to lambada with me.  She said "I'm such a
bad dancer" so I looked her in the eye and with perfect tonality said,
"tonight, I will teach you."  Well, we were dancing the night away and she
forgot all
about her borefriend (who hadn't come looking for her) but at 5-minutes to
midnight the DJ (thinking we were a couple.. given how she was like 100%
into grinding into me and feeling my lips on her neck) said we should go to
the large ballroom for the midnight kiss.  That snapped her into reality
and she bid me a hasty adieu as she ran off for her borefriend.

I hung around and danced the forbidden dance with several other women.
> what you initially say is not as important as how well you calibrate;
that is, get outside your head and notice what is going on with the girl
you are talking to.

Dwacon:  I stopped by the café this evening where I heard the distinctive
sound of German being spoken by two cute young HB9's.  I observed that one
of them was reading a small stack of sexually-related books.  I turned to
them and asked, "Deutchlanders?"  We got into a nice conversation about
their homeland and I did a number close.  Let's see where it goes from there...


Dean: Commenting on Aggressive openers- Ass grabbing, breast fondling, the
much discussed Kiss openers here on Cliff's list:
I have to tell you about an aggressive opener, if you can call it an
aggressive opener, that I used with this chick a few weeks ago. The actual
opening line wasn't that aggressive at all, but it got my hand on her tit
I was at this club with one of my mates and I was in the zone, nothing
could have phased me.
Anyway, I saw this group of 3 chicks dancing on the dance floor. Two were
blonde HB7's and the other was a Spanish looking beauty, HB9 tanned with a
body tight as fuck. This chick had a six pack! You could tell as she was
wearing one of those tight t-shirts which expose the stomach. Anyway, on
the front of the T-shirt had the word 'Perfect.'  Ok, 3 chicks, so I
decided to strut my stuff and danced close to them with my back to them, so
as it didn't look as though I was trying to do a PU. Dancing close to them,
I casually glanced over my shoulder and looked at the chick, them turned
away at which stage I did a double take and turned around quite quickly
looked at her and pointed at her chest and said the word "Perfect". She
looked at me and replied "Do you think so?". I replied " I don't know, I'll
have to check."
With that I closed the distance between from her left and put my right arm
around her, placing my left hand on her right tit. I left my hand there for
about 5 seconds, pondering whether or not she had good tits. I then took my
hand off her tit, looked at her and said "Hmmm, not bad at all". To this
she replied "Not bad for someone with two kids". My jaw nearly hit the
ground. "Two kids, you've got to be joking, you've got a six pack" at which
stage my hand started to caress her exposed stomach. My other hand at this
stage was feeling her arse. "There's no way you have got two kids with a
stomach like that." She replied "Yes I have". Her friends at this stage
were watching in disbelief. They had that stunned mullet expression on
their faces. I then looked at her in the eye and said "Hmmm, there's just
one more thing I need to check."
She said "what's that?" and I just pulled her close and kissed her.
The whole scenario must have lasted two minutes tops, and I didn't even get
her first name.
I've done similar approaches to other chicks as well. I approached one
chick once that had a jacket tied around her waist. I approached her and
said "You know why women tie their jackets around their waist?" and she
said "no, why?" to which I replied "To hide their
fat arses". She said "do you think I have got a fat arse?" I said "I don't
know, I'll have to check" to which I then placed my hand on her arse and
had a good feel. I ended up taking her back to her place that night.
I think the secret of these approaches is to be totally bold and act with
some ownership, as though your hand belongs there, as though it is your
right. I have had some women say "are you right there?" when I have done it
but I usually reply "Why, do you want me to stop?" and keep going anyway
and they let me.
When a woman wants you to stop, she'll make sure you know about it.  These
type of openers are the easiest ones to do, they just take confidence and
balls. You really do have to be in the right frame of mind.


> Ross: Well, I get ya...but they aren't going to give a rat's ass about
fair play if they don't like your pic in the first place. When you needle
them a bit about not writing back, have you considered they just don't like
your looks?
This is my big sticking point and maybe I am not making it clear: once I
get them on the phone I can pattern them, use my energy/voice..but from a
lifeless photo, I don't often get that chance.

GM: Yeah, that is a problem. Have you thought about going to the "success"
ladder? I'm using this as an intro now, lots of BS about the company I just
started and how I'm busy opening offices in Dallas and Boston and shit, all
about half true and I can back it with a website that has a pic
posted.  This can be a good tool as most of these women are looking for
stable and they all agree they've had it with "losers". But even then the
odds are stacked against us and I don't think there's a solution to
consistent success.  For example, I just did a search on Match to check out
the competition....using the same age criteria the ratio of guys/girls in
my city are 3-1. Those numbers probably increase exponentially in a larger
city. (Fuck it, I think I'm
going back to walkups : ) Layer that with a survey I read recently that
indicated that less than
10% of the girls using these services "ever" meet anyone else in person,
the figure for the guys was around 30%. So I guess that means 10% of the
girls were getting 30% of the guys. Then there's the stigma of having to
explain to your friends that you're fucking a guy that you met online! A
good headline might read "I'm looking for someone who's willing to lie
about how we met".
> Ross: Ok. Could you give us an example of one of your follow up
"persistent" letters that gets them to email back or call you after they
have previously failed to do so?

GM: In my humble opinion, all these women are fucked up wasteoids with
serious issues, why else would they retreat to the internet...and my field
work over the last 12 months has verified this. They ask for "sweet and
sensitive" they want someone to care enough to pull their hair out by the
roots while you're fucking them in the ass. I always take the opposite
approach of what they "say" they want. They're all freaks. How many women
have you written that said they cherished a sense of humor and then you sit
down and write the funniest shit since rocks were invented and you get no
reply? I just switch gears on em, send something sensitive, something
stupid and outrageous, etc. until they cave in or put me on a 'block' list.
The difference is it's all
playtime for me, I could care less if I ever meet these women. And the 5
that I've bagged since Nov. 1 are no longer in my phone directory. I think
it's a lot like a walkup where you take the attitude "I'm going to have
fun" and then just let your imagination take over with these girls. I've
got a lot of good material I can rely on in a pinch but nothing that's slam
dunk that is reliable
for every occasion. I've used it all from how to pan-fry a cobra, to
bowling theme parks, to how to hot wire a bulldozer....some bite, some
don't. But one of the better lines I've used is "I've always thought that a
woman's consideration and kind heart are more important than her age or
what she looks like". Sort of a neg hit I guess but I've gotten good
response from
it. And some respond to a challenge i.e. "have you ever made a really good
> Ross: unanimous were they in picking that pic with your Mom? I
actually had a new pic done that did better than the old one, but still not
NEARLY what I'd like. A student of mine who is a professional photographer
said the current pic is very good, but the problem is it
portrays me as warm, friendly, happy....instead of dominant and "Alpha
Male»" I am going to have some new ones taken, using the current cover
of Details with Ben Stiller as the model(this is what the photog
suggested). As for the quality...I've met a couple of ladies through and both of them have been seriously dinged, on the edge of being
insane, the other just depressed and of flat affect. Hmmmm...

GM: Everybody likes the pic with my Mom. I hate it! Good example, but that
reminds me.....several months ago I had a two separate photos of me and
Clint Eastwood morphed together as if we were drinking a beer and talking
about politics and shit. I may go back up with that one.
> Ross: I DO like my current pic; the chicks don't. Point..set..match. I
hate to give up on because it sure SEEMS like a great source of
poontangus, and this internet stuff is the ONE form of Sarging I can't seem
to get down, since my ugly mug gets me blown out of the water instead of
being blown. I also think any woman who takes the time to put into writing
who she is looking for is hypnotically programming herself to seek a very
specific fantasy that is MORE likely to get a guy eliminated on his looks
than in the non-internet world, but that's my own frustration talking....

GM: I think some of these women are on here not to meet guys, but because
they have an agenda. It may include their ex-boyfriend, their current
boyfriend, or they're gluttons for attention, or they may be emotional
wrecks and just aren't available for some reason. I've had everything work
and I've had everything fail and all I can say is there is no true fix on
the compass for these neurotic fucked up Prozac ridden airheads. And they
don't deserve a
break.....a temporary or on-call home entertainment center is all they are
good for. And I think there's a lot of support for the 'fantasy" theory.
I'm sure a ton of these girls are looking to meet the next Brad Pitt on
these services and when they set the bar that high it's a no-win situation.
> GM: You're not talking to them, you are MindFucking the shit out of
them. And yes, it can be done. No touch orgasms, squirting, orgasms while
they're blowing you....only your imagination limits your results. And never
tell a woman she's beautiful, Bro! Make them feel beautiful and hold the
> MB: O.K. how do you make a woman feel beautiful without telling her?
This I sincerely would like to know. Let me in on the way.....

GM: You don't have to tell a woman she's beautiful for her to 'feel' it.
Are you the best lover she's ever had, are you a master of non-verbal
communication, are you sensitive to and able to anticipate her needs
without the need to supplicate? When you "tell" a woman she's beautiful you
have given up ground in the battle of the sexes, and although you may get
positive feedback her subconscious screams "GOTCHA". Women don't 'need' to
be told their beautiful.....they WANT it! My rule of thumb has always been
to give them 100% of what they need and 1/2 of
what they want. I don't know, haven't thought about it, it's just something
you do. Be bold, be
a man, say the shit nobody else has the balls to say....especially in bed,
but make her feel she's special in the process. Could be an instinctive
thing-help me out guys ....anyone able to put this into words?

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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