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Before I collected my thoughts she was gone
2/4/02 6:03:30 PM Eastern Standard Time


> MB: Indian Motorcycle Club is certainly a good choice of venue as it is
wide open and women tend to be a little older and more receptive to PUA. I
go there sometimes and always get good results. What I got out of this
report was more of what was not said rather than what was said. Using magic
and performing to attract attention? Fine but where is the expression of
actual liking and desire for the woman or some form of admiration or
fascination with her? The report mentioned that many times this went
nowhere and there
were disappointments or lukewarm disinterest.

Darren: The Mystery Method» is primarily designed for GROUPS. You do not go
in expressing interest in the target right away, because her friends may
later cockblock you. Believe me, I have had this happen. I am wondering how
YOU handle this issue. Does this not happen to you? You DO want to express
interest once SHE has expressed interest in you (through IOIs). Also,
understand that I was approaching groups -- meaning 2-sets to sometimes as
large as 6-sets -- so that most of the time, I was not actually talking to
the target, but to the obstacles instead. I am also just starting to learn
the Mystery Method», so my routines need more rehearsing and fine-tuning,
and I only had a handful of routines rehearsed, so it's quite
understandable that the obstacles may not have been gushing with interest
and excitement this first weekend. I will get better. Finally, I think that
in order to learn something new, sometimes, you do have to take two steps
backwards at first before you make a giant leap forward. With my previous
style, I might have been able to get more numbers, but that wasn't my
intention that weekend; my goal was to learn the Mystery Method».
> MB: Interesting since the method of expressing desire and what a woman
does to me produces three results - an immediate closeness and liking and a
close or immediate closeness and liking but "I have a husband or a
boyfriend" but they still stick around and even offer numbers regardless or
an outright "fuck off, asshole" which is usually a man hater or a very
insecure woman, one which I do not want anyway. But never or extremely
rarely are the indifferent or just lukewarm. I am amazed that with so many
walk ups and tries you did not achieve a greater level of success than you
did. But at one point in my lifetime I as
well had the same shit kicked out of me before I learned to genuinely
express my attraction and desire for a woman when I saw her. How about
listening to women and actually talking to them - all you relate was "your
performance" or "magic tricks." How about some good solid relating to her
not better tricks or whatever? Perhaps the error was not the lack of better
tricks but the lack of expression of actual liking of her verbally or non

Darren: Yes, I think there is certainly a place for listening to women and
actually talking to them, but in order to get there in a club or bar
setting, you often need to get past her friends, who may get jealous of
their friend, or who may simply not like you. Befriend the obstacles, and
isolate the target, and it's smooth sailing from there. At this point, you
can run a few routines, do SS patterning (which includes asking questions
and gathering information), and so on. By the way, magic tricks or other
gimmicks DO NOT make the approach; they are simply PART of it. In fact, I
don't think I did ANY magic (except for some mentalism, which failed
anyway). I have never really tried directly expressing interest or desire
to a woman at the very beginning. I am curious to how this will work. I
have seen AFCs (some are even quite good-looking) go up to HBs and say,
"You are hot!" or "You are so pretty" only to have them just smile and say
"thank you" or laugh about it with their friends. I know that is not what
you do. I'd like to watch you work a room sometime. Your approach intrigues
me, and I think it might be something that could work for me. Of course, I
imagine that your looks do empower your approaches more than for the
average guy. I'm quite close to Toronto (1.5 hours away) -- let's go
sarging together sometime. I can come up to Toronto, or you can come down
to Buffalo. I imagine that coming to Buffalo would be more interesting for
you, as the women and the dynamics here might be a little different from
those in Toronto, and you may learn something new.
> MB: I was busy and couldn't, so I backed off. She sometimes just waved
from afar after I asked her out or ignored me completely most of the time
but this time she offered me a kiss. This time she says "Mark, I'll come
back and talk to you when you finish eating". Now these girls know I never
get dances so their purpose was not to try and get dances. All I did was
just sit there quietly, focus on my food, let them talk and feel unjudged -
no magic, no performances, no other funny stuff. They are the performer and
I am the appreciative audience - entertain me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Darren: Again, I do think there is a place for letting them talk and
babble. Women love a man who can listen. But I think you have to intrigue
them enough, especially in a club or bar, to stay there and babble to you,
and you have to ask the right questions, and you can't just sit there,
COMPLETELY silent (we call that talking to a wall) -- you have to
DEMONSTRATE to them that you are ACTIVELY listening. It still comes back to
the challenge of getting past her friends to get to your target. You didn't
have that problem in the scenarios you illustrated.
> MB: I think you border on the extreme. But you just proved my point as
to what you need to do to succeed - knock on doors until you get one that
bites. My technique is really one of no technique really. The no technique
technique is really just paying attention to what is happening and then
just responding to that and gently moving the process along by being
upfront, honest, expressive and sincere. You adapt to what is happening -
you mention a blow job and if her eyes light up, you keep on the topic. If
she looks at you in disgust, you change gears and find something else to
talk about.

Darren: I think Mark actually has quite a bit of technique. He is paying
attention to what the woman says, calibrating,and finding what really
excites her and puts her into positive states and keeping up those topics
of conversation. This is what you want to do in SS, as Ross pointed out. I
imagine that Mark could be more successful if he learned more SS, because
it seems to fit with his style; I suspect that he thinks of SS right now as
just canned patterns, which is an outdated model of the technology. Mark is
also able to adapt and flow, using what the woman gives him and working
with it to his advantage.


Mark B.:
> Ross: Now, I think this is a good place from which to start. Assume
women ARE sexual beings, enjoy sex, want to be with men, etc. This is one
of a few key understandings/cognitions that leads to great success. It is a
necessary understanding, and, by itself, probably isn't enough.

MB: And sexual beings they are. Just think back to the last time you boned
a girl. Did you look at her eyes, her face, her mouth, her body, the way
she moaned, the way she screamed and tell me she is not a sexual being.
Every woman I look at I assume that she is just waiting to express herself
sexually and this makes my job of getting her 1,000's of times easier.
> Ross: So out of 70, you got 35 to go out, and of those, about 17 you
nailed. I'm trying to see if that is right.

MB: Yeah, just about right. Now many of those were one or two dates where I
either did not like them enough for a second date or third date or they
decided they did not like me that way. Most of the ones I boned were only
maybe once or twice because either the sex was not good or they were too
much to handle or I did not like them enough to pursue any further. But a
few I saw more often and boned regularly which made up the bulk of the
120-150 times I fucked last year. The old 80/20 rule I guess. Now, remember
that I initiated conversations with about maybe 225-250 women all year and
many times they went nowhere and I did not even bother asking those out so
the 35 out of 70 is not 70 women I approached I got to date 35. Out of the
say 250 the 70 were women I thought I had good enough of a chance to see but
only about half agreed.
> Ross: No, I don't think this is AFC at all. In fact, if you were to
video the ways in which you listened to them and talked to them, I bet you
would find within, many aspects of seductive patterning. Perhaps not canned
speeches, but that is now a VERY small part of Speed Seduction». A huge part
is knowing how to pay attention, ask questions, get the right information
and use it. That IS "patterning".

MB: I am not good at canned speeches but I like to have themes in terms of
what I talk about. I will talk about sex, blowjobs, attraction, beauty,
romance, having fun but just not in a pattern type of way. This way women
feel free to express that side to themselves. I tell women that I play with
myself in the shower and they admit to also doing it, even at work. I'll
say "I am not at all inhibited sexually. In fact, I say that "I will do
anything in bed" to which they say "yeah, me too". BUT I still have to
initiate sex or kissing if I want to bone them a they rarely come out on
their own.
> Ross: I would really like you to get that I am not arguing with you,
Mark. From your perspective and experience, every word you say is true. But
like a fish, so used to being in water, you have no concept of "dry", you
are so used to walking through the world in a body that looks good enough
to attract women on sight (you've mentioned how women compliment
your looks and body), it is hard for you to see or comment on what is
required for guys who aren't so blessed. Yes, I display my balls when I
walk up and openly express that they don't know me, but I think they are
very attractive and I wanted to meet them. This IMPRESSES them, but alone,
will not create attraction. I, personally, except for a few rare cases,
must use how I listen, talk, pay attention, touch, use my energy and voice
and will and intent..all of that working together, to create the attraction.

MB: Ross, buddy, I do this as well. You think I am that good looking but I
do not believe that I really am, maybe above average at best. I have been
experimenting with being a little bit more quiet and subdued when I talk to
women and they are drawn to me much much more than if I stayed loud and
obnoxious. Irrespective of my looks, I feel that I still need to use words as
much as you to succeed and use them the right way. In fact, what you
describe above is almost exactly what I do as well. I feel though that this
process does not create attraction but helps to bring it out of them. This
is where our respectful differences of opinion lie.
> Ross: THEN I can express directly what I want from them. But I have to
do it in the right sequence and order, or I don't very often at all get
anywhere. Strong confidence/balls/directness impresses them sufficiently to
get them to listen and pay attention to the rest of it, which creates
the attraction. I believe that the ways in which you talk and listen and
ask questions ARE patterns, and if I looked at a transcript, I could
probably break it down.

MB: Maybe there are patterns there. I'll play Kiss' "Lick it up" in the car
and get them to sing along with me or "I was made for loving you baby, you
were made for love me" also by Kiss. They give me that "fuck me" look and I
know I am in.
> Ross: So even you are doing more than you know. You may not be doing
trance demonstrations or reciting the blow job pattern, but I don't think
you need to; remember, women are getting hot just LOOKING at you before you
open your mouth, based on your muscles, etc. etc, etc. For many of us here,
we don't walk into it with that advantage. It makes me a bit frustrated
that this is such a hard point for you to get or accept.

MB: I think that also body language» is extremely important - more so than
looks, actually. I make sure that I smile at women with that "I just want
to fuck you like an animal" look. This is where you smile but you raise
your lower lip above your upper teeth but you keep your lips together, you
tilt your head down and slightly to the side and sort of let your eye lids
somewhat for those bedroom eyes and look at them directly in the eye when
you are talking to them. This is what I do when I am with them and many
have said "Mark, you look like you have sex in your eyes." On the flip
side, women that are not attracted to me find this very uncomfortable so
this is a good test whether they are open to boning.
> Ross: YOU do not create attraction. YOU do not need to. Your body is
your calling card. I can and DO create attraction. We can go into debates
about multiplying zeros, but here is my point: I might initially get SOME
curiosity..intrigue...etc. But to get a woman to feel the feelings in her
body...her tummy feeling butterflies, her pussy feeling physically hot and
wet...I have to DO something with my words, touch, etc. YOU get that just
walking up, so of course, you don't need to do as much. Yes, a woman has
SOME initial interest in what I say, by virtue
of my confident approach. BUT..and this is the BUT..that interest does NOT
include the physical feelings of sexual attraction. I have to create that.
I know, because I debrief my women and virtually NONE have told me they
felt those feelings for me when I first walked up. Impressed, intrigued,
yes. I will say it one more time:
I...HAVE...TO....CREATE....ATTRACTION. So do most guys. You don't. You are

MB: O.K. Good point, Ross. Let's not argue over this again. I have my view
on this and so do you.
> Ross: Congrats. You are sarging her. You are taking the initial physical
attraction based on your looks alone and amping it up by how you pay
attention and using her responses. Get it out of your head that SS is about
a series of recited speeches. That is the model from 1993.

MB: I am beginning to see that attractiveness is more a way of behaving
rather than a way of looking. When I am cool, calm, collected, quiet,
hushed, my face is relaxed and I move very deliberately I have found new
interest from women that previously would not even look my way. So much for
physical attraction as being the dominant factor for attraction.
> Ross: If you are really great looking and they get hot and wet just
looking at you, you have to do less work. This is my only point. I don't
see why I can't get a simple agreement on something that is as common sense
and a part of everyday life as gravity.

MB: No woman has ever said to me "You are hot. I want to bang you". They
have never expressed a desire to fuck me on the basis of my appearance. It
is always on the basis of emotions that I have been able to elicit from
them. By the way, there is no such thing as gravity in the sense of earth
having some special pulling power on objects. What keeps us on earth is
that the earth bends space around itself thus creating a down special sort
of like slide that keep us on earth.
> Gregory Rasputin: You're right on, Mark. This is exactly how I feel.
Because I am open with girls they want to be open with me. If a girl turns
me on, I'm not gonna be ashamed of it. My emotions are who I am, I'm gonna
tell her. Girls can tell when you're using a line to get results, and when
you're being yourself.

MB: Yes, I do this all the time. In fact, I call it the first thought
response. I get a thought and then I externalize it for myself. This is
where some of you may think that it's not right to compliment a woman but
if that is my thought at the moment then that is what I say. If I am riding
in the car with her and I want to hold her hand I will and then tell her
how good it feels for me to hold it. No canned lines or any other crap.
>"You know, society teaches you to pursue love, and talks about how
glorious it is. And society also teaches you from the age of 12 that sex is
some sort of a forbidden sin that you have to be extremely careful about.
But if love and sex are the same thing, then how can this make sense?" Get
it guys? I bombard women with things like this, and use all my patterning
skills to let them grow wings, strong, powerful wings, that allows them to
just break
away from the chains that society imprisoned them in, and do what feels
right, with me.

MB: I'll tell her "sex between two people is so wonderful but sometimes you
are single so you have no recourse but to do it with yourself. In fact, I
have been playing with myself since the age of 12." They love this and
frees them to open up about their sexual preferences. I also tell them how
North American society restricts sexual freedom and how it is different in
Europe where I lived for 10 years of my life. I guess there is some sort of
a pattern there "....feel free to express your sexuality......let go of
your inhibitions........allow yourself to your desires....."
> I used to be afraid to approach girls, to flirt with girls, to normally
talk with girls, and especially to lay down any sexual moves with girls.
Thanks to,» I learned how to approach and got the
confidence to know that I can do it. So I began
approaching girls. Thanks to SS, I learned some amazing things I could do
with words, and so I became confident in talking with girls, but the sexual
department still gave me trouble until I realized this: I am not the
clothes I wear, the car I drive, the job I have, the friends I hang out
with, or the girls I'm after. I'm not the language I speak, I'm not even my
name. I am the emotions I feel, the thoughts I think, and the actions I do.
That's all I am, and I'm very fucking proud of it.

MB: Women are not that scary. Since I have gone out there I am surprised by
the variety of responses from women. From downright total rigidity to total
sexual openness but you never know that until you open your mouth first and
steer the conversation that way. And when you do sometimes you open up
something that "blows you" away.
> That's why if I want to say something, I'll say it. It entered my head
I'm not gonna suppress it, and if I want to DO something, then I will just
know when it's right to do it, and I will do it. At this point in my life,
I don't think about how I'll approach a girl, I don't think about the
pattern I'll use. I approach them naturally, because what an approach is
for me, is me giving them a chance to taste my personality, and I'm proud
of my personality, so I have no trouble approaching. I never think about
what pattern to use because it became part of who I am. I normally speak in
patterns, and always create very, very vivid images just with my words, and
I'm proud of that, too.

MB: We can only be what we are. I believe David from Montreal says this -
just express your immediate thoughts. Last week, I was in a mall and a
super hot blond HB10 walked right across from me. I was lost in thought and
it happened so fast that before I collected my thoughts she was gone. I
hoped to find her later but I could not. What I should have done is got her
attention and said "You know, I have been walking here and I noticed you
but I was lost in thought and not in the frame of mind to say anything of
meaning but I noticed and you I would love to have an opportunity to talk
to you again" or something of this sort. But what works really well is to
just have a clear mind and let things just come out on their own. Not only
is this very relaxing and easy but it also seems natural and uncontrived -
because it is.
> Gregory Rasputin: Mark, you're describing me here. I have no objection
with telling a woman that she is very beautiful to me, and that I care for
her, but I also have no objection with telling a woman to stop bothering me
if she gives me bullshit. I don't see this as a game (I used to). I'm nice,
if she deserves it. I let my girlfriend hear my deepest poetry, I make her
feel so appreciated sometimes her eyes tear up and she can't let go of me,
but if she's late, for example, to something then I just won't call, and
let her chase me and make it up to me. If my girl always deserves a good
treatment, I'll always give her a good treatment, without being afraid that
she'll get bored, because 1) I KNOW I'm the only guy who can make her feel
this way (because she tells me) and 2) people never say to themselves "You
know, all these incredible feelings sure are nice, but I'm getting kinda
bored, I think I'll go find a way to feel shitty".

MB: You sound just like me as well. I tell women they are special to me,
that I love them and love to be with them, that I am happy to be with them
and they make me feel good inside. At the same time if she gets out of
line, I will let her know right away. And if I do not feel like fucking I
will not no matter how much she begs me. Or, if I feel like being alone I
tell her, or
if I do not feel like calling I will not call her. I treat them like
princesses but I never, ever tolerate bullshit and if it happens I let them
know right away.
> MB: But ultimately, what makes an AFC - how he does what he does or the
results he gets? Gregory Rasputin: What makes an AFC? The fact that he has
no pride in his thoughts, his emotions, or his actions, but instead his
pride comes from the car he drives and the career he has.

MB: I threw this question out as a rhetorical one but your answer is
interesting, nonetheless. I feel that the implied definition of AFC in the
seduction community is one who acts a certain way irrespective of the
results he gets. To me, an AFC is one who cannot express his emotions and
his desires and as result does not get laid. I am not normally an emotional
guy but I was watching a biography on NFL great running back Walter Payton
on A&E that did something to me. This guy wore his emotions on his sleeve,
he showed great caring for his team-mates often hugging them and showing
great affection, he showed his sadness on the field and cried in public
when he was dying. After his death, many of his team-mates cried during his
eulogy. I never cry about anything I see on TV, but this time I cried after
seeing this outpour of emotions toward this man. And I have nothing but
respect for him and those that are able to show how they feel openly. An
AFC is the ultimate at hiding his emotions and the F frustrated part of AFC
is the struggle that is between his emotions and thoughts wanting to come
out and his suppression
of them in fear of being rejected.
> Gregory Rasputin: How I love hearing those words, Mark. That's true,
women do want to be taken. I mean, I do believe that they all get aroused
from the thought of dominating their super-confident hunk in bed, but
anywhere else they want to have the decisions made for them by someone
who's confident. AFC's are never confident, so when they make their
decisions the
women think that they don't know what they're doing. When I tell a girl
something she says things like "Somehow, I know that in the end, you're
right", because I KNOW I'm right, too. I wanna make the decisions in the

MB: I noticed there is a huge difference between what women say and what
they do. Now this distinction does not bother me anymore as I found that
just paying attention to body language» is more important than the words
they say. For example, they'll say "no, stop kissing my neck" but do it
very playfully and not push me away that is a sign to keep going, but if
they freeze up and get serious you know they want you to really stop. When
their words do not match their body language», I know that this is where
they want you to step in, assert control and make a decision to continue.
This is where it's critical to not drop the ball as this is a test where
they are looking
to you for guidance and it's up to you to show it to them. This is where
they want the men to be men and many AFC's unfortunately not know any
better and drop the ball here.


Dwacon (Diamonds Aren't a Girl's Best Friend...
> AdamK: "There's a guy who does a web site called"

Dwacon: We discussed this guy on both Mystery's PUA and also on Mindlist
and the conclusion was that these are staged. Just thought I'd share ;^D


I checked out that site ( because I think it would be
very helpful to have video documentation of actual seduction processes
happening in the real world. After giving this website a looksee, I suspect
that there is one of three conclusions, and am not completely sure which
one, though further investigation would warrant here.

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION ONE: (which I am leaning towards): These vids are fake,
simply acted out; and acted out rather well. This would include the
so-called "reject" vids to give the effect of realism on the site. State
laws require every model in such a production to sign release forms, so I
am not certain how he could obtain one from the "reject" actresses that
don't want to participate. I also am assuming that the powers-that-be would
simply shut him down unless he was operating within the umbrella of the
law.  The other indication to me was noticing how the most of the chicks
who show up at his door go from being very shy school-girl-esq, to sucking
cock like veteran porn actresses. This shows they've been around the block
a few times, brother! Newbie women don't suck cock that good, so the chycks
that I saw from the site do not seem so "innocent" to me. With some of the
chicks, it's just blatantly obvious when they show up wearing no underwear.

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION TWO: The vids are real, however, the chicks who answer
the ads probably realize in the back of their mind that they may need to
put out for some dork in order to get through the first door into modeling.
The "guy" behind the camera certainly seems likable and he speaks nicely to
them, but it's all basic fluff shit convo that, to me anyway, unlike SS,
does not seem to have anything that would induce a trance state that would
allow him to just simply start fondling and then fucking these brawds
within minutes of meeting them.

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION THREE: That simply holding a video camera in front of
these chycks triggers an "exhibitionist" quality in them, and after a
certain point, they go completely wild. This possibility seems to be far
fetched though, maybe this is what placing an ad for calender models
attracts. If that be the case, then it might be worth it if any SS bro wants
to duplicate this same experiment himself. There may also be cultural
differences here. I come from the Northeast U.S. and perhaps Southern
California chycks are just simply sluttier and easier.

I do see the value of viewing seduction in the real world as it happens,
yet I question whether or not this site is genuine in terms of what we, as
PUAs would be looking for. To quote Mystery: "Get OFFLINE for a bit. Go
IN-FIELD. Get back INTO the game. The game is played IN-FIELD not online.
This is your call to action." and I think that's what I'll do.


> Ross: I would really like you to get that I am not arguing with you,
Mark. From your perspective and experience, every word you say is true. But
like a fish, so used to being in water, you have no concept of "dry", you
are so used to walking through the world in a body that looks good enough
to attract women on sight (you've mentioned how women compliment
your looks and body), it is hard for you to see or comment on what is
required for guys who aren't so blessed.

Toecutter: Ross, I met a guy from Cliff's list who e-mailed me to meet me
the other week. He was an SSer and studies your stuff religiously. He
claims he is getting really good, but he is not regularly getting laid. And
he emulated a couple of your behaviours that I felt were unhealthy. The
second of them was this one of calling himself ugly and talking about the
good looking guys like me. I hope he won't mind me talking about him here
since I leave him anonymous and I said most of this to his face also
(although that was a private discussion and this is public. I am mind
reading here a little bit ... no offence if I am a bit off base, eh?)
First, let's go back to the first behaviour. The first behaviour is that he
will not do clubs and bars. Now, this is just plain ludicrous for anyone
who claims to be a seductionist. It is like a ice-hockey player refusing to
play NHL hockey and only playing in the Mexican League. Why? It is where
the game is played. It is where the girls go hoping to meet a man. It is
efficient. All the girls are grouped together, and although they have bitch
shields, they are there because perhaps, maybe they just MIGHT meet their
Prince Charming. Married women don't go (unless they want to meet a man).
It is all single women. So a club puts a PU into context. It is in the
correct context. So why doesn't this guy work clubs and pubs really? I mean
he says it is because of the noise and the alcohol, but I could tell that
he has shyness issues. He pretends to be full of bravado, and all it was
some extreme aversion he had to drunk people and the noise. He said these
were the only things, but I don't believe him. Because you can always find
bars where it is not SO noisy, and within those bars you can always find
girls who are not drunk. Especially before midnight when none of them are
drunk. So this guy has the same shyness issues that you have and I have and
everyone has. But this guy won't get over his. He walks into a club sober,
and walks around to see what is there. Everyone is there in groups and he
is there alone. My first approach for the evening is difficult alone, too,
and I understand how this can be intimidating. But the only answer is to
beat the fear. And everyone there is in groups. And he sees a 3 set with 2
beautiful girls and a smooth well dressed guy, and he wimps out. He feels
out of place. He feels as if everyone is a member of a club, and he is not
invited. He feels like everyone knows each other and they are all looking
at him. He leaves without approaching a single set, and tells himself that
either of those 2 girls would be easier to approach if they were alone in a
coffee shop or shopping mall. And he is right. If you don't have a group
set opener, they would be easier to approach. And they wouldn't have bitch
shields. So he has not beaten his fear of approaching IMO. It is the only
explanation that I can come up with to validate the behaviour.
And certainly because of this behaviour he does not do bulk approaches. And
that means he does not practice and get better.
The next thing that I noticed is that he is always calling himself the ugly
unattractive guy who can speak to women. Now, since he is seldom getting
laid then this must really fuck with his self esteem. I mean in his self
talk, as well as in public talk he is calling himself ugly all the time.
This changes his interaction with a girl. I find it a little disturbing
that you are egging him on by getting so much fun out of this conversation
with Mark B. Mark B. has very little game. And it is obvious (no offence,
Mark ... this is beyond the discussion about your game that goes nowhere).
I personally feel that Mark B. measures his success differently to me.
There is no way that Mark can isolate the club queen from her entourage,
for example. But, Ross, when you push Mark's claims as if he can seduce any
women with these methods you are not helping. Because if Mark B. can get
laid using those methods (or lack thereof) then everyone has to believe
that it is just on his looks. I understand that for the short term
marketing goals of having customers say "if Ross can get laid, and he is
the champion of the ugly guys (while Mystery and DD need no game just like
that Mark B. guy) then using SS I can, too", but also privately it
validates within the guy's life the fact that he can not get laid. He is
able to externalize the blame for his current situation from himself to his
looks that he has less control of he feels. (In fact, looks in a guy is
about image more than anything and nearly every guy is capable of being
attractive. The pity is that this guy I am talking about even with his
current misplaced image is not that ugly.)  And as he does that, it fucks
with his self esteem. It is a self defeating belief as well as extremely
limiting. Because after he has said that so often, and most definitely
believes it, when he goes up to a girl believing that he is ugly and
disgusting, that absolutely is telegraphed through his channels of
communication (body language», posture, facial expressions, muscle tension,
voice speed, voice tempo, voice tonality, words, etc.). And if he can not
believe that he is an attractive, desirable man, how can a woman? So a move
that might be sexually bold for me because I believe I am attractive, and
am thus playing with her and flirting, when he watches and tries to emulate
and model it, his belief makes him telegraph that he is a dirty little
deviate of a slimy man because he is doing the same move but believing that
he is unattractive. So this belief changes the ENERGY between him and a
woman. And it in itself ensures that he will not get laid regularly. Add
this belief to the fact that he is not doing mass approaches in nightspots
that may change that belief through trial and error and the success that is
accumulated through knocking on more doors, and he is doomed to have
evolution take care of his sorry arse. Which is a pity really. Because with
the thought and work he put into this, and the good system he is using, he
kind of deserves to breed. It is sad IMO.
So I ask you to be a little more long sighted with this talking about how
ugly you are and how easy it is for the good-looking guys and not going to
clubs, because there are people out here reading what you say. And these
words and behaviours are capable of changing beliefs and are intimately
linked with success with women. They are both bad beliefs. I suggest you
change them. Because being an attractive man is nothing more than good
grooming and self talk.


Cliff, many months ago you wrote in a newsletter that by your observation,
the "direct approach" used by Mark B. and others was not based on looks.
Ross appears to disagree. What are your comments on this?

Clifford: It's been my experience that looks alone are not the whole
story.  Sure, some really good looking guys are going to get preferential
treatment.  No question about it from some women.  But many have been
burned by good looking guys and they will tell you (and they could be
lying) that if a guy is too good looking they won't give him the time of
day.  I used to hang around with Dr. Ray who is a very good looking guy and
many women wanted nothing to do with him (he was pretty successful with
many because he was very good at SS and he approached a good number of them
- but my point is that looks alone did not make the sale).

I used to go out with Orly who you may have read a lot about a long time
ago on my emails.  She told me about a year and a half after we broke up
that after going out to clubs and bars very frequently since we broke up
that there was "not one" guy who approached her as a real gentleman that
attracted her in all that time.  I had a date last week with a stunning
model who hasn't been with a guy in two years (yet she's 23 and works as a
bartender in one of the most popular clubs here).  Women have a different
problem than we do - many of them find it hard to find a guy that they want
to go out with.  Alex, a PUA here in Montreal, has been asking women (as
his pick up line) how would they like to be approached by a guy and many of
them told him that they rarely get approached and it's even rarer for them
to meet someone they like.

Looks are better to have than not to, but charm, a sense of humour, the
ability to take action and approach, and a warmth, I think, will get you
further overall than a guy relying only on his looks to succeed.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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