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2/5/02 11:05:09 AM Eastern Standard Time


Craig:  PUA Event:
For those of us who love college women, Spring Break is a great time of
year! After I spent last year's Spring Break watching everyone else have
fun on MTV, I decided that it was my duty to organize a Spring Break Trip
for 2002! My goal is always to have the most fun with the most women while
spending the least amount of money, and I have found the perfect place in
San Felipe, Mexico! This trip is guaranteed to be amazing, with nearly
every sorority girl from every San Diego college planning to attend (and
I'm serious!). Total cost is $350, which includes hotel, round trip bus
fare from San Diego, and admission to all clubs and parties. The
accommodations are beach front of course and the weather promises to be
amazing, with clear skys and water warmer than an HBs you know what after a
night with me! The dates are from April 1-5. Please check out for more info, and email me at vas***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] before you
sign up so I can make room and bus arrangements. Happy Humpin! A $60
deposit is due by Feb 14. This trip will sell out!


> Darren: Yes, I think there is certainly a place for listening to women
and actually talking to them, but in order to get there in a club or bar
setting, you often need to get past her friends, who may get jealous of
their friend, or who may simply not like you. Befriend the obstacles,
and  isolate the target, and it's smooth sailing from there. At this point,
you can run a few routines, do SS patterning (which includes asking
questions and gathering information), and so on.

Ross: I keep explaining to my own students that CONTEXT is very important.
What you can do and what will work best depends on the situation and the
individual. In the case of a club or bar, you WILL have to deal with
friends, AFC cockblockers and other interruptions.
I think there are some great ways around it that you can learn from Tom and
Kim at, such as getting non-verbal rapport with
the friends/blockers or, in the alternative, "smurfing" them. Maybe Tom V.
can jump in here and talk about this.
> Darren:By the way, magic tricks or other gimmicks DO NOT make the
approach; they are simply PART of it. In fact, I don't think I did ANY
magic (except for some mentalism, which failed anyway). I have never really
tried directly expressing interest or desire to a woman at the very
beginning. I am curious to how this will work. I have seen AFCs (some are
even quite good-looking) go up to HBs and say, "You are hot!" or "You are
so pretty" only to have them just smile and say "thank you" or laugh about
it with their friends.

Ross:  I think those kind of direct openers in a BAR or CLUB are more
likely to get you a negative result because of the built in
clickish/snotty/status/social approval factors.
>It still comes back to the challenge of getting past her friends to get
to your target. You didn't
have that problem in the scenarios you illustrated.

Ross:  Yes, it is a different CONTEXT. The equipment that works for hunting
bear would get you drowned if you used it to hunt a shark!
> MB: I am not good at canned speeches but I like to have themes in terms
of what I talk about. I will talk about sex, blowjobs, attraction, beauty,
romance, having fun but just not in a pattern type of way. This way women
feel free to express that side to themselves. I tell women that I play with
myself in the shower and they admit to also doing it, even at work. I'll
say "I am not at all inhibited sexually. In fact, I say that "I will do
anything in bed" to which they say "yeah, me too". BUT I still have to
initiate sex or kissing if I want to bone them a they rarely come out on
their own.

Ross: I hear you. I agree. Even with SS, I usually have to make the first
physical move.
> MB: You think I am that good looking but I do not believe that I really
am, maybe above average at best.

Ross:  Well, you have commented that women change their positive response
to you when you decrease your body fat or make minor changes in your
appearance that they notice right away.
> MB:  I have been experimenting with being a little bit more quiet and
subdued when I talk to  women and they are drawn to me much much more than
if I stayed loud and obnoxious. Irrespective of my looks, I feel that I
still need to use words as much as you to succeed and use them the right
way. In fact, what you describe above is almost exactly what I do as well.
I feel though that this process does not create attraction but helps to
bring it out of them. This  is where our respectful differences of opinion lie.

Ross:  Ok. I get you. In your mind, your are allowing the attraction to
come out and in my mind I am creating it. Let's meet in the middle and say
we are EVOKING it. And, I still say, out of the gate, you have a bit of an
advantage with the well-muscled body.
>> Ross: THEN I can express directly what I want from them. But I have to
do it in the right sequence and order, or I don't very often at all get
anywhere. Strong confidence/balls/directness impresses them sufficiently to
get them to listen and pay attention to the rest of it, which creates  the
attraction. I believe that the ways in which you talk and listen and ask
questions ARE patterns, and if I looked at a transcript, I could probably
break it down.
> MB: Maybe there are patterns there. I'll play Kiss' "Lick it up" in the
car and get them to sing along with me or "I was made for loving you baby,
you were made for love me" also by Kiss. They give me that "fuck me" look
and I know I am in.

Ross:  Ha ha. Let the band do it for you! I don't own a single Kiss CD, but
have to find that one! Good suggestion!
>> Ross: So even you are doing more than you know. You may not be doing
trance demonstrations or reciting the blow job pattern, but I don't think
you need to; remember, women are getting hot just LOOKING at you before you
open your mouth, based on your muscles, etc. etc, etc. For many of us here,
we don't walk into it with that advantage. It makes me a bit frustrated
that this is such a hard point for you to get or accept.
> By the way, there is no such thing as gravity in the sense of earth
having some special pulling power on objects. What keeps us on earth is
that the earth bends space around itself thus creating a down special sort
of like slide that keep us on earth.

Ross:  Depends. Actually, gravity waves have been detected in space.
Gravity both describes how mass warps space and the attraction between
objects, depending on the frame of reference.
> Toecutter: So I ask you to be a little more long sighted with this
talking about how ugly you are and how easy it is for the good-looking guys
and not going to clubs, because there are people out here reading what you
say. And these words and behaviours are capable of changing beliefs and are
intimately linked with success with women. They are both bad beliefs. I
suggest you change them. Because being an attractive man is nothing more
than good grooming and self talk.

Ross: Let me clear it up. I do NOT think I am ugly. My belief about my
attractiveness is, "He's not what you would consider classically good
looking, but he is VERY attractive in his own way, in his own right". What
I HAVE said is that I will seldom turn heads just by walking into a
crowded room (unless it is a seminar room and I am teaching!). That, if you
took a PIC of me and a PIC of Mark B, women would pick Mark's pic as being
their pick...oh, stop nit-picking!
Attractive is as attractive does. On that score, given the right elements,
I can be EXTREMELY attractive. I don't think I'm classically good looking,
but so what?
> Clifford:  Looks are better to have than not to, but charm, a sense of
humour, the ability to take action and approach, and a warmth, I think,
will get you further overall than a guy relying only on his looks to succeed.

Ross: I agree. Unless you are doing or online..then you better
have a
pretty good-looking pic.


>MB: Ross, buddy, I do this as well. You think I am that good looking but
I do not believe that I really am, maybe above average at best. I have been
experimenting with being a little bit more quiet and subdued when I talk to
women and they are drawn to me much much more than if I stayed loud and
obnoxious. Irrespective of my looks, I feel that I still need to use words
asmuch as you to succeed and use them the right way.

Halbster: I believe that MB is correct. Even when a woman thinks you're
super hot, you still need to use words and other tools. However, the
process becomes much, much easier. Also, I think that what MB says about
being quiet has a lot to do with the fact that he is a huge, muscular dude.
The quiet creates a great balance. Done with his listening, questioning,
and other things that show that he isn't shallow, it really distinguishes
him from the stereotypical musclehead. I believe that MB has found an
excellent system of seduction for him given his appearance and other
factors. There are elements that other people can take from what he does
and it will work for them. There are also many things that need to be
modified to make them work for you. For example, IMHO a dorky looking,
outta shape guy can demonstrate balls, and confidence, but they need to
create rapport and some arousal before moving on too the sexual stuff. MB
is able to succeed by moving to sexual stuff much quicker.
> Clifford:  Alex, a PUA here in Montreal, has been asking women (as his
pick up line) how would they like to be approached by a guy and many of
them told him that they rarely get approached and it's even rarer for them
to meet someone they like.
Looks are better to have than not to, but charm, a sense of humour, the
ability to take action and approach, and a warmth, I think, will get you
further overall than a guy relying only on his looks to succeed.

Halbster:  This brings up a very interesting theme that can be used for
seduction, but it is much more useful just to discuss occasionally for your
own learning and the interesting conversation it creates. Sys has a similar
question along the lines of Do you think most men really understand what a
woman wants and needs? I've posted in the past about being in an apartment
shared by 3 strippers from Tens Cabaret (One of NY City's most upscale
clubs) and these girls and their friends are all talking about how
difficult it is for them to meet guys. They get approached by 1000's of
guys. However, they don't count because they don't know how to cross the
boundary line in a woman's mind where they step across into the secret core
as Ross and Major Mark call it. When you access this place you're in a
different ball game.


Mike P.:
> MB: I have been experimenting with being a little bit more quiet and
subdued when I talk to women and they are drawn to me much much more than
if I stayed loud and obnoxious. Irrespective of my looks, I feel that I
still need to use words as much as you to succeed and use them the right way.

Mike P.: You are disregarding what people tell you and bullying your point.
You don't need to use your intelligence as much as Ross. Ross is no where
near attractive to average people. I guess I have to throw up the


>Insider: I checked out that site
POSSIBLE CONCLUSION ONE: These vids are fake, simply acted out; and acted
out rather well. This would include the so-called "reject" vids to give the
effect of realism on the site....

GoneSavage: I read an on-line convo between this guy and another
pornographer. The pornographer had worked with many of the girls before.
But the netvideo guy's whole point was that he used language and anchoring
techniques to fuck the girls WITHOUT paying them, as the other pornographer
had. I haven't seen his videos, but at-hand I would have no reason doubt
him. Although I can accept that seeing them might in itself arouse doubt.
But I do believe that I could pull this off given HIS location and MY game.
Check this out. Last week, I put an ad in the student center at the
university selling a textbook. A girl calls about the book and she has a
nice voice. I engage her in generic small talk...where are you from, what
do you study, etc. We pick a time and place to meet, she tells me what she
looks like and what she is wearing. I say I'll find her. She turned out to
be really cute. Since she has no clue what I look like, I approach her
cold, and play around as if I am not the person she is supposed to
meet...I'm just someone that HAD to meet her. Just when she convinces
herself that I am not the person she is supposed to meet, I pull out the
book. She loved the ploy and our interaction. I sell her the book and say
"The book will cost you the original $20, plus there is an extra tax...your
phone number." She smiles and rolls her eyes. I say "Wait, I already got
your number when you called, so you'll have to come to dinner with me
instead." We had dinner; and she paid, as I suggested, with the money that
she saved by not buying the textbook at the bookstore. I'm leaving out
vital conversation, demonstration of personality, ways we
connected, etc., but long-story-short, she ended up at my place in my bed.
If I can do this selling a book, you bet I could put an ad "wanted:
calendar models" and bone just about all the respondents. It's an idea that
I toyed with long before I learned of this site, of which I
cannot even afford to explore further. It's really a great idea because you
already know are getting highly sexual women and the best part is, they
come to you. It's during the "interview" that you create/enhance
attraction, use your charm, takeaways, sexual accelerators, whatever. But
I've got even wilder real-life videotaped PU ideas! Simply put, I don't
have the equipment, or the $ for equipment. If anyone wants to combine our
mental and financial resources, for outrageous filmed PU, get in touch.


> MB: Indian Motorcycle Club is certainly a good choice of venue as it is
wide open and women tend to be a little older and more receptive to PUA. I
go there sometimes and always get good results. What I got out of this
report was more of what was not said rather than what was said. Using magic
and performing to attract attention? Fine but where is the expression of
actual liking and desire for the woman or some form of admiration or
fascination with her? The report mentioned that many times this went
nowhere and there were disappointments or lukewarm disinterest.

Mystery: I'm confused. Are you saying that you are able to express liking
and desiring a woman or some form of admiration or fascination with a
target who is sitting in a 6 set? How do you do this without FIRST
approaching the GROUP? Why would one walk straight up to the TARGET in her
group, thereby totally alienating her friends (including the guys, one of
which may be the brother or worse, boyfriend) and immediately express that
you want her? Of course, there is the expression of interest in the target,
but not until to GET THERE.  There are steps that must be taken to
successfully isolate the girl and do so in such a way that you not only
have her full attention, but you don't get the shit beaten out of you by
one of the guys. And yes, if you CANNOT successfully isolate the girl from
the group, you will NOT be able to talk with her and test for IOIs and then
express your interest. One does not express his interest in a girl until
she PROVES HERSELF to him.
> Darren: The Mystery Method» is primarily designed for GROUPS. You do not
go in expressing interest in the target right away, because her friends may
later cockblock you. Believe me, I have had this happen. I am wondering how
YOU handle this issue. Does this not happen to you? You DO want to express
interest once SHE has expressed interest in you (through IOIs). Also,
understand that I was approaching groups -- meaning 2-sets to sometimes as
large as 6-sets -- so that most of the time, I was not actually talking to
the target, but to the obstacles instead. I am also just starting to learn
the Mystery Method», so my routines need more rehearsing and fine-tuning,
and I only had a handful of routines rehearsed, so it's quite
understandable that the obstacles may not have been gushing with interest
and excitement this first weekend. I will get better. Finally, I think that
in order to learn something new, sometimes, you do have to take two steps
backwards at first before you make a giant leap forward. With my previous
style, I might have been able to get more numbers, but that wasn't my
intention that weekend; my goal was to learn the Mystery Method».
> MB: Interesting since the method of expressing desire and what a woman
does to me produces three results - an immediate closeness and liking and a
close or immediate closeness and liking but "I have a husband or a
boyfriend" but they still stick around and even offer numbers regardless or
an outright "fuck off, asshole" which is usually a man hater or a very
insecure woman, one which I do not want anyway.

Mystery:  You are assuming you have already isolated the target though.
When, though, do you ever see a woman of great beauty sitting
alone?  That's quite rare. Besides, what is the story girls tell their
friends when asked, "how'd you meet your boyfriend?" The answer is almost
always, "through friends." That is why you first befriend the peer group
and then you get to isolate the girl. As for the "fuck off asshole"
comment, you are labeling women as man haters or insecure if they use the
BITCH SHIELD as a strategy to get rid of guys.  Thing is, most often it is
the 10 that gets hit on so often that they soon discover the BITCH SHIELD
strategy an effective way to counter all the losers bugging her in a
day.  Are they Bitches? No. Are they "man haters"?  No. Are they
"insecure"? No.  They are merely using an effective strategy to get rid of
losers. So what does MM do? It EXPLOITS the fact that HOT women are using
this tactic and doesn't take it personally and label the GIRL as defective.
How does it exploit the fact? NEG THEORY.
> But never or extremely rarely are the indifferent or just lukewarm. I am
amazed that with so many walk ups and tries you did not achieve a greater
level of success than you did.

Mystery:  In 3 days? Dude's gotta SEE it work first, THEN, internalize the
PACING and TIMING of an evening. He definitely GOT IT. He has the
principles I sure firmly lodged in his head. Now it's a matter of
internalizing the routines that were always available online but never
believed. There was no understanding of how exactly the material should be
applied. I teach practical APPLICATION. It took Chris Powles about 6 weeks
to go from OK to AWESOME. I believe, if Darren works with the same pacing
as seen, he will start living a new lifestyle in 6 weeks. And yes Darren,
that is my challenge to you haaaa.! : )
> But at one point in my lifetime I as well had the same shit kicked out
of me before I learned to genuinely express my attraction and desire for a
woman when I saw her. How about listening to women and actually talking to
them - all you relate was "your performance" or "magic tricks."

Mystery:  Again, I'm confused. Are you suggesting we approach the target
directly? You can't "genuinely express your attraction and desire" to a 10
who is sitting with 3 guys, dude.
>How about some good solid relating to her not better tricks or whatever?
Perhaps the error was not the lack of better tricks but the lack of
expression of actual liking of her verbally or non verbally?
> Darren: Yes, I think there is certainly a place for listening to women
and actually talking to them, but in order to get there in a club or bar
setting, you often need to get past her friends, who may get jealous of
their friend, or who may simply not like you. Befriend the obstacles, and
isolate the target, and it's smooth sailing from there. At this point, you
can run a few routines, do SS patterning (which includes asking questions
and gathering information), and so on. By the way, magic tricks or other
gimmicks DO NOT make the approach; they are simply PART of it. In fact, I
don't think I did ANY magic (except for some mentalism, which failed
anyway). I have never really tried directly expressing interest or desire
to a woman at the very beginning.

Mystery: Yes, magic tricks are not essential. They are good ROUTINES for
disarming a group but we aren't talking about card tricks here. I think the
most powerful routines in the beginning are ENTHUSIASTIC STORIES. Talking
within the two topics of interest that women respond to (relationships and
the unknown) within these stories are the way to go especially if you are
conveying enthusiasm. For instance, if you do graphology or runecasting,
you don't have to use it to disarm the group. You may use it as the EXCUSE
to isolate the target. "Hey I want to show you something I've been
experimenting with."
> I am curious to how this will work. I have seen AFCs (some are even
quite good-looking) go up to HBs and say, "You are hot!" or "You are so
pretty" only to have them just smile and say "thank you" or laugh about it
with their friends. I know that is not what you do. I'd like to watch you
work a room sometime. Your approach intrigues me, and I think it might be
something that could work for me. Of course, I imagine that your looks do
empower your approaches more than for the average guy. I'm quite close to
Toronto (1.5 hours away) -- let's go sarging together sometime. I can come
up to Toronto, or you can come down to Buffalo. I imagine that coming to
Buffalo would be more interesting for you, as the women and the dynamics
here might be a little different from those in Toronto, and you may learn
something new.
> MB: I was busy and couldn't, so I backed off. She sometimes just waved
from afar after I asked her out or ignored me completely most of the time
but this time she offered me a kiss. This time she says "Mark, I'll come
back and talk to you when you finish eating". Now these girls know I never
get dances so their purpose was not to try and get dances. All I did was
just sit there quietly, focus on my food, let them talk and feel unjudged -
no magic, no performances, no other funny stuff. They are the performer and
I am the appreciative audience - entertain me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mystery: BTW, I'm not performing mentalism and such on groups because I'm a
magician. I'm a magician because the performance of magic WORKS to befriend
groups. Again, not card and coin trick magic. Runecasting, PK energy
experiments, mind-reading, psychology tests, etc. Last night I carried a
WICCA book into the strip club and this was great!
> Darren: Again, I do think there is a place for letting them talk and
babble. Women love a man who can listen. But I think you have to intrigue
them enough, especially in a club or bar, to stay there and babble to you,
and you have to ask the right questions, and you can't just sit there,
COMPLETELY silent (we call that talking to a wall) -- you have to
DEMONSTRATE to them that you are ACTIVELY listening. It still comes back to
the challenge of getting past her friends to get to your target. You didn't
have that problem in the scenarios you illustrated.

Mystery:  Are these cold approaches? I mean, over there in the corner is a
5 set with 2 hot girls, one a 9.2 the other an 8.8. you select your target.
How do you get the 9.2 to WANT YOU? Sure, you could approach her right away
and express interest but that doesn't work. The friends will think you are
a complete loser. We know you aren't doing that. So, what do you do in that
situation?  You won't get a chance that night to talk with her alone and
besides, before you hit on her, shouldn't you find out if one of those guys
is the brother or bf? Also, her girlfriend there is going to be judging
you, too.  If you choose the target, the girlfriend will think you are just
liking her friend for her looks and cockblock you hardcore with a "let's go
dance" to the target and you lost her. I'm teaching complex maneuvering in
my workshop. It's ADVANCED stuff and that's why I caution people not to
sign up unless they have SOME experience under their belt. Darren had that
> MB: I think you border on the extreme. But you just proved my point as
to what you need to do to succeed - knock on doors until you get one that

Mystery: I view it this way, PRACTICE knocking on doors until you start
noticing MOST of the doors begin to open. If the chances were only 1 in 100
then you'd be knocking and knocking til you found the 1 total slut in the
100.  But if you tried different knocks and over time the ratio changed to
1 in 3 or 4 doors, then you would know it's not because there were simply
suddenly more sluts but because your evolving knocking technique was
responsible. "Do what works more and what doesn't less."
> My technique is really one of no technique really. The no technique
technique is really just paying attention to what is happening and then
just responding to that and gently moving the process along by being
upfront, honest, expressive and sincere. You adapt to what is happening -
you mention a blow job and if her eyes light up, you keep on the topic.

Mystery:  Who would you be talking to in this scenario? The TARGET? How'd
you get that far into the group to already ISOLATE her? I'm so intrigued I
would love to see you work a room (not a challenge or judging thing, just
an educational observing this, ya know).
> If she looks at you in disgust, you change gears and find something else
to talk about.

Mystery:  And what if she starts talking to her friends again and turns
your back to you? See, the entire MM thing is to get the target wanting you
from within her peer group and to do it in 25 minutes or less. In fact, I
landed a stripper in a strip club in about 15 minutes ... with my workshop
student watching (sorry, only lounge members get the full outing report as
the details are not for the public - it'll be posted within the week.)
>Darren: I think Mark actually has quite a bit of technique. He is paying
attention to what the woman says, calibrating,and finding what really
excites her and puts her into positive states and keeping up those topics
of conversation. This is what you want to do in SS, as Ross pointed out. I
imagine that Mark could be more successful if he learned more SS, because
it seems to fit with his style; I suspect that he thinks of SS right now as
just canned patterns, which is an outdated model of the technology. Mark is
also able to adapt and flow, using what the woman gives him and working
with it to his advantage.

Mystery:  My curiosity pulls me to ask, "How is mark able to isolate the
target in order to first qualify her and get IOIs before expressing his
> Dwacon (Diamonds Aren't a Girl's Best Friend...
> AdamK: "There's a guy who does a web site called"
Dwacon: We discussed this guy on both Mystery's PUA and also on Mindlist
and the conclusion was that these are staged. Just thought I'd share ;^D

Mystery:  How does one get these videos? They aren't available (yet?) on
> Toecutter: Ross, I met a guy from Cliff's list who e-mailed me to meet
me the other week. He was an SSer and studies your stuff religiously. He
claims he is getting really good, but he is not regularly getting laid. And
he emulated a couple of your behaviours that I felt were unhealthy. The
second of them was this one of calling himself ugly and talking about the
good looking guys like me. I hope he won't mind me talking about him here
since I leave him anonymous and I said most of this to his face also
(although that was a private discussion and this is public. I am mind
reading here a little bit ... no offence if I am a bit off base, eh?)
First, let's go back to the first behaviour. The first behaviour is that he
will not do clubs and bars. Now, this is just plain ludicrous for anyone
who claims to be a seductionist. It is like a ice-hockey player refusing to
play NHL hockey and only playing in the Mexican League. Why? It is where
the game is played. It is where the girls go hoping to meet a man. It is
efficient. All the girls are grouped together, and although they have bitch
shields, they are there because perhaps, maybe they just MIGHT meet their
Prince Charming. Married women don't go (unless they want to meet a man).
It is all single women. So a club puts a PU into context. It is in the
correct context. So why doesn't this guy work clubs and pubs really? I mean
he says it is because of the noise and the alcohol, but I could tell that
he has shyness issues. He pretends to be full of bravado, and all it was
some extreme aversion he had to drunk people and the noise. He said these
were the only things, but I don't believe him. Because you can always find
bars where it is not SO noisy, and within those bars you can always find
girls who are not drunk. Especially before midnight when none of them are
drunk. So this guy has the same shyness issues that you have and I have and
everyone has. But this guy won't get over his. He walks into a club sober,
and walks around to see what is there. Everyone is there in groups and he
is there alone. My first approach for the evening is difficult alone, too,
and I understand how this can be intimidating. But the only answer is to
beat the fear. And everyone there is in groups. And he sees a 3 set with 2
beautiful girls and a smooth well dressed guy, and he wimps out. He feels
out of place. He feels as if everyone is a member of a club, and he is not
invited. He feels like everyone knows each other and they are all looking
at him. He leaves without approaching a single set, and tells himself that
either of those 2 girls would be easier to approach if they were alone in a
coffee shop or shopping mall. And he is right. If you don't have a group
set opener, they would be easier to approach. And they wouldn't have bitch
shields. So he has not beaten his fear of approaching IMO. It is the only
explanation that I can come up with to validate the behaviour. And
certainly because of this behaviour he does not do bulk approaches. And
that means he does not practice and get better. The next thing that I
noticed is that he is always calling himself the ugly unattractive guy who
can speak to women. Now, since he is seldom getting laid then this must
really fuck with his self esteem. I mean in his self talk, as well as in
public talk he is calling himself ugly all the time. This changes his
interaction with a girl. I find it a little disturbing that you are egging
him on by getting so much fun out of this conversation with Mark B. Mark B.
has very little game. And it is obvious (no offence, Mark ... this is
beyond the discussion about your game that goes nowhere). I personally feel
that Mark B. measures his success differently to me. There is no way that
Mark can isolate the club queen from her entourage, for example. But, Ross,
when you push Mark's claims as if he can seduce any women with these
methods you are not helping. Because if Mark B. can get laid using those
methods (or lack thereof) then everyone has to believe that it is just on
his looks. I understand that for the short term marketing goals of having
customers say "if Ross can get laid, and he is the champion of the ugly
guys (while Mystery and DD need no game just like that Mark B. guy)

Mystery:  What I find so curious about this statement is that it doesn't go
with my reality. If I just sit there, I will NEVER get a girl to approach
me. I will NEVER get a girl by my looks alone. If I come in with 2 hotties
on my arm, I may have attracted some interest and curiousity but girls will
NEVER show IOIs if I don't express some alphamale behaviors fast. This
debate "looks over skill" is so old. and the truth is, the only ones who
bring it up are those who aren't getting laid.  There are ugly guys getting
laid all the time ... they just have the knowledge to look like they are
getting laid and therefore they don't look so ugly.  Try this experiment
today and whenever you remember to: next time you are out somewhere, look
around.  Look at the guys. Look at ONE guy. Ask, "is this guy getting
laid?" Yes or no. Do this one by one with all the guys you see. You will
likely say yes to some and no to others. Then you'll notice you say yes to
those with girls or smiling more and no to those who are alone, not
smiling, unshaven, etc. Then after all this, ask yourself a question: "Do I
look like I'm getting laid?"  This is a great exercise. You may not exactly
know WHY you answer yes rather than no or vice versa, but you will get a
'feel' for the difference. Then you can apply your observations upon
yourself to change your image to appear like you are getting it. Funny
thing is, you know how you can judge whether some guy is a fucker or not?
Well, so can girls. And they do. (Refer to copycat mating topic).


Reviews of products mentioned here previously:
> 1) Seduction Program  "The ULTIMATE Guide to Getting Women" The
successful eBook.
Angel:  Never bought it, but some friends have. They shared it with me.
Purely straightforward stuff of a common sense nature. If you're already an
average guy with average confidence, you don't need this.
> The Ugly Man's Guide To Picking Up Beautiful Women
Angel: I'm average looking, I have the book and it sucks. Give me Ross
Jeffries over this one. Talks about humour and wit as keys. Duh. Don't we
all know this.
> 7) The Master Dater:
Angel: It's not so thick, but is stuffed with well written chapters on how
to get a date, what to do on the first date, and dating etiquette.I like
the guide on how to meet people on the internet and how to place an
effective personal ad.
> 8)
Angel: This is better than Essential-Skills (which, I also love). Even
first timers to DHE and NLP can immediately apply the rudiments of
persuasion. He teaches great "magical presuppositions" that really, really
> V. The Secrets of Penis Power & Sexual Stamina Introduction to PC
(Kegel) Exercises
Angel: This is that penis enlargement book, right? It's the BEST I've ever
read on the topic of sex positions, and stamina gain. I've learned how to
last at least two hours with his "tantra sex" thrusting positions. I say
this is worth the investment.
>16) Ph.D of Persuasion:
Angel: It's the barebones of the persuasion genre. Great stuff on body
language», socializing and hypnotic patterning. Actually, this was among my
first books in my foray into the NLP world. I immediately learned how to
set the stage for perfect persuasive meetings, not just for romance, but
also for those sons of bitches who just don't want to listen to me. A good
to this excellent book is Kenrick Cleveland's.
> 17) Psychic Seduction 5:
Angel: This is the KING of all them psychic influence/control manuals. It
beats MindControlManual hands down. Lots of techniques and no fluffy
theories. I love the instant applications written by the author. Great
discussion on scores of etheric energy transfer techniques. This book is
really for dummies coz if you can't understand it, you must have no brain.
> 18) Magnetic Attraction:
Angel: Similar to Attract Women Now, but much better. Good insight into how
to converse with women and get them wet.
> 19) Attract Women Now
Angel: Has excellent treatment of the dating process, from beginning to
getting them to spread their PU*. It's common sense, but you really need to
be reminded of these occasionally.
> 20) Psychic Command/Matronix/Hypnotech/Hypnotic Seduction by Mojo
Angel: Now this is pure hype, pure shit. You should really ban him from
your list.GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRR! I wasted my moolah on this scum


> Toecutter: Ross, I met a guy from Cliff's list who e-mailed me to meet
me the other week. He was an SSer and studies your stuff religiously. He
claims he is getting really good, but he is not regularly getting laid. And
he emulated a couple of your behaviours that I felt were unhealthy. The
second of them was this one of calling himself ugly and talking about the
good looking guys like me.

Primoman: Thanks Toecutter for the new, healthy mindset. That ANYONE can be
good looking with the right style and attitude. You just got rid of any
insecurities I used to have. And Ross, at one point you were my hero! I
want your old attitude back. The one where you said looks don't matter with
men. It's obvious that looks don't matter, and I know many good looking
guys who get NO attention from women.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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