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Can a fat, ugly, poorly dressed guy get laid by a mega babe?
2/6/02 6:12:56 PM Eastern Standard Time


> And Ross, at one point you were my hero! I want your old attitude back.
The one where you said looks don't matter with men. It's obvious that looks
don't matter, and I know many good looking guys who get NO attention from

Ross: I'm going to try to clarify this, because frankly, I have better
things to do and this keeps coming up. IF you are trying the conventional
"dating" game, without setting frames, capturing and leading her
imagination and emotions, eliciting her deep processes, etc., etc., THEN,
looks matter...alot.  The whole point of SS is to take you OUTSIDE
conventional dating and PAST a
woman's first, knee jerk response to your looks. LOOKS DO MATTER A GREAT
DEAL...IF you aren't doing SS. Do SS, and you just have to be basically
presentable without smelling like a truck of rotten fish on a hot summer's
day.  LOOKS ALSO MATTER if you are doing online dating», as chicks want to
see a picture. If you don't have a good pic, generally, you don't get an
answer.  When I finally had a pro photographer do a shoot that made me look
macho and dominant, my responses went WAYYYY up.
Ok? Please take what I teach in CONTEXT, as it is MEANT to be taken in context. your own hero...don't count on ME! I'm just a guy with 2 cats
making the world a bit better for us horny dudes.
> Mystery: You are assuming you have already isolated the target though.
When, though, do you ever see a woman of great beauty sitting alone? That's
quite rare. Besides, what is the story girls tell their friends when asked,
"how'd you meet your boyfriend?" The answer is almost  always, "through
friends." That is why you first befriend the peer group and then you get to
isolate the girl. As for the "fuck off asshole" comment, you are labeling
women as man haters or insecure if they use the BITCH SHIELD as a strategy
to get rid of guys. Thing is, most often it is the 10 that gets hit on so
often that they soon discover the BITCH SHIELD strategy an effective way to
counter all the losers bugging her in a day. Are they Bitches? No. Are they
"man haters"? No. Are they "insecure"? No. They are merely using an
effective strategy to get rid of  losers. So what does MM do? It EXPLOITS
the fact that HOT women are using this tactic and doesn't take it
personally and label the GIRL as defective. How does it exploit the fact?

Ross: This all depends on WHERE you approach. I agree with Mys, that in a
club or bar setting, with all the inherent and unspoken "status" rules,
approaching a hottie who is with a group of friends and directly talking to
her is not going to work UNLESS you somehow are perceived by the group as
being of higher status. Maybe if you are the owner of the club or some kind
of star.  But here in LA, I see beautiful women EVERYWHERE.
EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE. On the street, one on one, or even with a warpig
companion, there just isn't the same dynamic.
I think Mys has some valuable things to teach about clubs and bars. I think
we can boil down what he does to some simple axioms that apply in THOSE
contexts.  In other contexts, it isn't so important.  Example: I have
supported and continue to support a Cat/Dog rescue charity.
Almost all of the volunteers are very attractive women, 18-27/28 years
old.  I've been invited by the lady who runs the whole deal to a little
mixer at the home of a volunteer. She made it clear there will be over 30
very pretty young, single, female volunteers and only 3 to 5 guys. I'm the
high status guy going in, because I am the major donor.  In that setting,
***I*** have high status. I can do whatever the fuck I want. No obstacles
to disarm, etc. etc.  Similar deal in a Yoga class where there are about 35
very in shape women to 5 guys, and half the guys will be gay.  So, if you
are going to go to clubs and bars, study the Mystery methods. Combine it
with some of the non-verbal rapport stuff on the Essential-Skills products
and you will have great ways to insinuate your way into groups and then
isolate whom you want and also TEST for who is most responsive using MY
stuff. Once isolated, do SS.  Now, also, I keep getting emails from guys
who claim I'm getting bashed on Mystery's Lounge and why don't I jump in
and defend myself, etc. etc.
Please, stop emailing me. I appreciate the support, but I have better
things to do. If Mys or others want to bash me, let them go to town.
****I**** know SS is light-years beyond what they think it is; it has moved
SO far away from canned patterns and towards creating a hyper-responsive
state for women where they can experience amazing feelings that I think the
boys slamming me haven't a clue as to where I and the technology are
TODAY.  I've also got NO bone to pick with Mystery. I've figured out the
major aspects of what he does, it makes sense to me, I can see how it might
apply at approaching an entire party of women out at a restaurant for
girls' night out, as well as at a club or bar. I also know that Chris P,
one of his prime students, is to put it mildly, a HUGE convert to Speed
Seduction», and that Chris has seen me in action and has let Mys know in no
uncertain terms that I am the real item and that I can do some amazing
things.  So...let a thousand petals blossom and a thousand schools of
contend, to quote Chairman Mao. I don't need to make anyone wrong and
anyone who is in ANY way actually helping guys dip their wicks with better
quality of women has my support, as long as what they are teaching WORKS
and they aren't bashing me to market their own product. I have NOTHING to students are proving it FOR me and pushing the envelope of
persuasion and seduction so far that we are leaving the "competition" 20
years behind at least. And as for the full on rip-off imitators, as I told
Yates, I can CREATE faster than they can STEAL. The ultimate insurance and

Clifford:  Anyone who has been to one of Ross' seminars knows the quality,
intelligence and effectiveness of what he teaches, and how he keeps pushing
the envelope and coming up with new material all the time.  Highly recommended.
> Mystery: BTW, I'm not performing mentalism and such on groups because
I'm a magician. I'm a magician because the performance of magic WORKS to
befriend groups. Again, not card and coin trick magic. Runecasting, PK
energy experiments, mind-reading, psychology tests, etc. Last night I
carried a WICCA book into the strip club and this was great

Ross: I agree, this is fantastic bait for the "trap" so to speak. Women eat
this up, but this is the very stuff another "expert" on this list dismissed
as "faggot shit". HIS words, NOT mine!
> Toecutter: The first behaviour is that he will not do clubs and bars.
Now, this is just plain ludicrous for anyone who claims to be a seductionist.

Ross:  Toesy, remember who you are talking to here. I'm 43 years old. Push
into your 40's and staying up til 3 a.m. isn't part of the lifestyle if you
are half-way sane and care about your health at all.  I don't do clubs also
because of the late hours. Call me a pussy or call me grand-pa...I've just
evolved better ways to meet women that don't put such a strain on me.  Want
an example of how I meet women AND actually improve my health? in So Cal, there are TWO hiking trails that are LOADED with
friendly, athletic, healthy women.  One is Runyon Canyon, in the Hollywood
foothills. On any given afternoon,
you will see literally dozens of hot women, mostly actresses and models,
strolling the trail, walking their dogs, etc. Most in great spirits, most
incredibly friendly, usually alone but sometimes in pairs. I get my
exercise in and I get to meet lovely ladies at a decent hour.
The other is the back trail in Temescal Canyon. Just SWARMING with girls. A
recent gal of mine introduced me to this trail, and I had a hard time
paying attention to her because of all the "scenery" if you catch my
drift.  Oh..did I mention the Yoga classes? Depending on which studio and
what level of class, anywhere from 20 - 45 women, and never more than 5
guys a class.  Again, working on my health, well-being and meeting
women.  Why, at 43, would I want to stay out to 3 a.m., exhaust myself,
battling for social proof amongst much younger guys?
If YOU want to do clubs, Toesy, then do so. At 43, I might go to a
neighborhood bar early in the evening, but I'm leaving by midnite. Forget
about trendy clubs UNLESS I am going with a VIP so I am VIEWED as VIP
already by virtue of being in that section. Or, unless I have a young lady
with me. I lost my 23 year old escort and am looking to replace her. She
looked like a young Andie McDowell...sob sob sob. Poor old fart I am.
> Toecutter: I personally feel that Mark B. measures his success
differently to me. There is no way that  Mark can isolate the club queen
from her entourage, for example. But, Ross, when you push Mark's claims as
if he can seduce any women with these methods you are not helping. Because
if Mark B. can get laid using those methods (or lack thereof) then everyone
has to believe that it is just on his looks. I understand that for the
short term marketing goals of having customers say "if Ross can get laid,
and he is the champion of the ugly guys (while Mystery and DD need no game
just like that Mark B. guy

Ross:  Wow, everyone is a critic these days. Poor little me. I feel SOOO
attacked. Slammed left and right. Look here, my man. I can't be responsible
for everyone. I create the tech, get it out there....people are going to do
what they will. I think this guy you are talking about needs to get up off
his ass, get past his fear, and work a club or two.  If YOU are still going
to clubs when you hit 43, you've got a problem. I've found better ways FOR
me, with my age and what I want to do with my health and energy. More power
to you Toesy..I like your posts. I don't ask my students to emulate me or
my life-style choices. Frankly, it's none of their bees-wax.


Ciz (from private email):
>Hey Mark B, what was it like in Europe compared to North America? Did you
notice the chicks being much more open to sex and were you getting more and
hotter girls than you currently have in Canada??? I have a friend who told
me wild stories of sex clubs, etc., in Paris and Amsterdam and Rottingdam
and how hot and easy girls were there... Is this stuff for real? Maybe the
list should organize a group tour. Also, the same friend is also into the
Russian women mail order scheme, and I've seen pictures of these girls and
they are also totally hot, as well. So, based on your 10 years in Europe is
it really all that it's cracked up to be -- so much
better than the USA? Maybe it's time to apply for a visa : ) What can
Americans do there for work? How can they get hired and which is the best
country, in your opinion???

MB: I lived in Germany and Poland for the first 10 years of my life but I
have very vivid memories of what life is like there. More so in Germany
than anywhere else I lived, women initiate sex and contact and are the
aggressors as often as men. My father worked as a locksmith back there for
3 years and travelled all around Cologne opening locked doors many times
visiting women at home. He is an average looking guy but got at least 2-3
invites for sex every week on the job, all without doing anything first
himself. But more so than anything there is a feel there that sex is normal
and natural, expected and not shameful and it's O.K. to want it and you
will not be judged if you express your desire for it - whether you are a
man or a woman. This makes people much much freer to act upon their
desires. In North America, there
seems to me a greater emphasis on the right conditions to exist before it's
deemed acceptable to sleep with someone. Women and men have probably equal
sexual desires but women tend to attach more shame to expressing their
sexual needs for fear not wanting to look like a slut, cheap or easy. For
this reason, I tend to focus on making sure that I express my sexuality first
thus making them feel like they can do so as well.
As far as where to go I would suggest France, Germany, Italy, Greece but
you can do your own research on those. But I hear that women in Hungary and
Romania are super hot and will fuck you at the drop of a dime - literally.
As far as what an American can do down there again you'd have to do your
own research on this, but maybe teaching English could be an option. But rest
assured that you do not have to play these dumb fucking ass bullshit games
down there. It's sort of like "hey, wanna fuck" "O.K. let's go" if she is
game rather than himming and humming even if she wants to bone but does not
want to look like a slut.


Mark B.:
> I have seen AFCs (some are even quite good-looking) go up to HBs and
say, "You are hot!" or "You are so pretty" only to have them just smile and
say "thank you" or laugh about it with their friends.

MB: Yes, very good start but what did you expect? Her falling at your feet?
These comments alone do nothing. You have to continue, talk to her, smile
and then ask her for something like a number, date. She is very likely to
offer nothing on her own simply by virtue of those comments alone. Follow up.
> Ross: I hear you. I agree. Even with SS, I usually have to make the
first physical move.

MB: Good because somehow I got the impression that SS expects her to make
it first. This rarely happens even with girlfriends.
> Ross: Ok. I get you. In your mind, your are allowing the attraction to
come out and in my mind I am creating it. Let's meet in the middle and say
we are EVOKING it.

MB: O.K. Let's agree to that.
> Ross: Ha ha. Let the band do it for you! I don't own a single Kiss CD,
but I'll have to find that one! Good suggestion!

MB: Almost every Kiss song has some deep sexual undertones and it's a great
way of affecting her indirectly. Make yourself a CD with their best hits of
Kiss off Morpheous.
> Halbster: I believe that MB is correct. Even when a woman thinks you're
super hot, you still need to use words and other tools. However, the
process becomes much, much easier. Also, I think that what MB says about
being quiet has a lot to do with the fact that he is a huge, muscular dude.
The quiet creates a great balance. Done with his listening, questioning,
and other things that show that he isn't shallow, it really distinguishes
him from the stereotypical muscle head. I believe that MB has found an
excellent system of seduction for him given his appearance and other
factors. There are elements that other people can take from what he does
and it will work for them. There are also many things that need to be
modified to make them work for you. For example, IMHO a dorky looking,
outta shape guy can demonstrate balls, and confidence, but they need to
create rapport and some arousal before moving on too the sexual stuff. MB
is able to succeed by moving to sexual stuff much quicker.

MB: It seems the key is to pay attention to what works for you and then do
more of it. But I also feel that there are general guidelines that are
similar along various approaches. This means taking the lead, being flirty,
allowing her to speak, etc.
>Mystery: I'm confused. Are you saying that you are able to express liking
and desiring a woman or some form of admiration or fascination with a
target who is sitting in a 6 set? How do you do this without FIRST
approaching the GROUP? Why would one walk straight up to the TARGET in her
group, thereby totally alienating her friends (including the guys, one of
which may be the brother or worse, boyfriend) and immediately express that
you want her?

MB: I tend to only focus on her but only after I make sure that there is a
lull in the interaction between her and her friends. If they are totally
engaged I wait for an opportunity where she is on her own for a bit or if
they are just standing around doing nothing. I pick my spots very
carefully. I have rarely had her friends interfere if I am talking to her
and if they do I say "I am talking to your friend here, please do not
interrupt" in a playful way.
> And yes, if you CANNOT successfully isolate the girl from the group, you
will NOT be able to talk with her and test for IOIs and then express your

MB: Sometimes they just isolate themselves when I approach her if she is
into me so I do not have to worry about this. If they do not I just try to
get their attention and sometimes they'll just see what I want and isolate
> You are assuming you have already isolated the target though. When,
though, do you ever see a woman of great beauty sitting alone? That's quite
rare. Besides, what is the story girls tell their friends when asked,
"how'd you meet your boyfriend?" The answer is almost always, "through
friends." That is why you first befriend the peer group and then you get to
isolate the girl.

MB: Well, I have never boned an HB and only had one date with a HB through
friends. All others were cold approaches. This is my preferred method. I
never worry about being on good terms with her friends, that comes later.
How I meet her is totally irrelevant. But how many times will a woman admit
she met a guy who "picked me up while I was drunk in a bar" does not look
good on them so they lie.
> Thing is, most often it is the 10 that gets hit on so often that they
soon discover the BITCH SHIELD strategy an effective way to counter all the
losers bugging her in a day. Are they Bitches? No. Are they "man haters"?
No. Are they "insecure"? No. They are merely using an effective strategy to
get rid of losers. So what does MM do? It EXPLOITS the fact that HOT women
are using this tactic and doesn't take it personally and label the GIRL as
How does it exploit the fact? NEG THEORY.

MB: I have rarely met a woman who, even if she was married or had BF did
not appreciate some form of positive attention. But sometimes she just
hates men. I tried to pick up this one HB8 once who said "I just want to be
left alone. I was just divorced and am seeing a new guy who is just my
young toy for now and do not need any other man bullshit in my life". She
had a total bitch look on her face and seemed very cold. I saw about 20
guys - good looking average and ugly try to pick her up only to walk away
with a shot down look on their face. Even if she was not into any of them
at least she could have had some fun for the night but she shot all of them
down and left with her girlfriend alone that night. You're right, though,
when you suggest
that sometimes it's just a bitch shield but again she will cut you some
slack by somehow inviting you to crack it open for her if she is into you.
> Mystery: Again, I'm confused. Are you suggesting we approach the target
directly? You can't "genuinely express your attraction and desire" to a 10
who is sitting with 3 guys, dude.

MB: I always approach a target directly. Yeah, I know if she is there with
3 guys I can't so I look for a break in the action or another young gazelle
that has broken off from the heard and then pounce on her. Besides is she
really the only one there or is she really that hot that you need to have
the one that's with 3 other guys?
> Befriend the obstacles, and isolate the target, and it's smooth sailing
from there. At this point, you can run a few routines, do SS patterning
(which includes asking questions and gathering information), and so on. By
the way, magic tricks or other gimmicks DO NOT make the approach; they are
simply PART of it. In fact, I don't think I did ANY magic (except for some
mentalism, which failed anyway). I have never really tried directly
expressing interest or desire
to a woman at the very beginning.

MB: This is a new way of looking at this. It seems to make a lot of sense.
> I am curious to how this will work. I have seen AFCs (some are even
quite good-looking) go up to HBs and say, "You are hot!" or "You are so
pretty" only to have them just smile and say "thank you" or laugh about it
with their friends.

MB: They'll laugh if you just stand there and expect something. I always
follow that up with more conversation and then a request or offer.
> I know that is not what you do. I'd like to watch you work a room
sometime. Your approach intrigues me, and I think it might be something
that could work for me. Of course, I imagine that your looks do empower
your approaches more than for the average guy.

MB: Forget looks. If I feel nervous or anxious or if I am not in the mood
my supposed looks mean nothing to me and do not empower me in any way.
>Mystery: Are these cold approaches? I mean, over there in the corner is a
5 set with 2 hot girls, one a 9.2 the other an 8.8. you select your target.
How do you get the 9.2 to WANT YOU? Sure, you could approach her right away
and express interest but that doesn't work. The friends will think you are
a complete loser. We know you aren't doing that. So, what do you do in that
situation? You won't get a chance that night to talk with her alone and
besides, before you hit on her, shouldn't you find out if one of those guys
is the brother or bf? Also, her girlfriend there is going to be judging
you, too. If you choose the target, the girlfriend will think you are just
liking her friend for her looks and cockblock you hardcore with a "let's go
dance" to the target and you lost her. I'm teaching complex maneuvering in
my workshop. It's ADVANCED stuff and that's why I caution people not to
sign up unless they have SOME experience under their belt. Darren had that

MB: All my approaches are cold. I watch for a while and see how she
responds to her environment. How she talks to her friends and other stuff.
When I do approach her and I find that if she is not into me then I can't
do much about it but if she is then she'll usually cut me some slack and
give me room to manoeuvre and even keep her friends at bay.
>Mystery: I view it this way, PRACTICE knocking on doors until you start
noticing MOST of the doors begin to open. If the chances were only 1 in 100
then you'd be knocking and knocking til you found the 1 total slut in the
100. But if you tried different knocks and over time the ratio changed to 1
in 3 or 4 doors, then you would know it's not because there were simply
suddenly more sluts but because your evolving knocking technique was
responsible. "Do what works more and what doesn't less."

MB: Right. I am constantly paying attention to what is happening right
there and then and do little tests to see at what she'll bite. I am always
making adjustments to my flight path as I go along. If or when I find
something that bites then I'll run with it. One date recently I had we
talked about back and forth stuff without any real direction. Then I
mentioned I live down the street from the House of Lancaster in Toronto - a
famous strip bar. This diverted the topic to sex for the next 2 hours where
she told me how much she likes to fuck, her fantasies and how she likes to
swallow. So I try to do more of what works and less of what does not all
the time.
> Mystery: Who would you be talking to in this scenario? The TARGET? How'd
you get that far into the group to already ISOLATE her? I'm so intrigued I
would love to see you work a room (not a challenge or judging thing, just
an educational observing this, ya know).

MB: Yes, the target. I never really gave much thought to the need to
isolate anyone as it never really came up as something that needed to be
done or ever really presented an obstacle. Like I said, if she is into me
then she'll cut me lack and keep her friends from interfering.
> Mystery: And what if she starts talking to her friends again and turns
your back to you? See, the entire MM thing is to get the target wanting you
from within her peer group and to do it in 25 minutes or less. In fact, I
landed a stripper in a strip club in about 15 minutes ... with my workshop
student watching (sorry, only lounge members get the full outing report as
the details are not for the public - it'll be posted within the week.

MB: If she turns away then she is not into me and if try harder I look like
a fool. I have landed a few strippers under 60 seconds "You know I loved
your show. You looked great out there. A hugely imaginative routine. I have
to run but I would love to get an opportunity to get to know you outside of
the bar" and gotten numbers and then gotten laid.
> Darren: I think Mark actually has quite a bit of technique. He is paying
attention to what the woman says, calibrating, and finding what really
excites her and puts her into positive states and keeping up those topics
of conversation. This is what you want to do in SS, as Ross pointed out. I
imagine that Mark could be more successful if he learned more SS, because
it seems to fit with his style; I suspect that he thinks of SS right now as
just canned patterns, which is an outdated model of the technology. Mark is
also able to adapt and flow, using what the woman gives him and working
with it to his advantage.

MB: Yes. Keep throwing out your hooks until you get one that bites and then
pull like hell. Maximize your opportunities and minimize your losses. Get
them on what gets them going, find what it is and then blow it up. I have
to re-listen to my SS tapes again.
> Mystery: My curiosity pulls me to ask, "How is mark able to isolate the
target in order to first qualify her and get IOIs before expressing his

MB: I never give this isolating thing any thought. When I see a break in
the action, I pounce. In other words, rather than approaching the herd and
trying to get one to stray away I wait until she strays from the heard and
then make my move. This is how animals hunt in the wild.
> I find it a little disturbing that you are egging him on by getting so
much fun out of this conversation with Mark B. Mark B. has very little
game. And it is obvious (no offence, Mark ... this is beyond the discussion
about your game that goes nowhere). I personally feel that Mark B. measures
his success differently to me. There is no way that Mark can isolate the
club queen from her entourage, for example. But, Ross, when you push Mark's
claims as if he can seduce any women with these methods you are not
helping. Because if Mark B. can get laid using those
methods (or lack thereof) then everyone has to believe that it is just on
his looks. I understand that for the short term marketing goals of having
customers say "if Ross can get laid, and he is the champion of the ugly
guys (while Mystery and DD need no game just like that Mark B. guy)

MB: Once again I cannot stress enough how looks may help you get a girl to
approach you initially or make the initial intro easier but looks very,
very quickly lose their appeal or power once you begin to interact. If Ross
gets laid, then it's because of his verbal skills and his personality. For
me, looking better makes the initial approach easier but as time progresses
it takes skill to make it happen. I have never, ever just stood there and
had a woman approach me and say she would like me to fuck her on the basis
of my looks (well, no, it happened once in November of 1994 and she was
older and drunk). Those that have said they would like to
fuck me first always did so after an exchange of laughter, confidence and
feeling easy with me. Whatever having this so called "game" is, it is
really irrelevant to me. Are you more concerned about being a certain way
or getting results like getting laid?


>Ross: > Darren: Yes, I think there is certainly a place for listening to
women and actually talking to them, but in order to get there in a club or
bar setting, you often need to get past her friends, who may get jealous of
their friend, or who may simply not like you. Befriend the obstacles, and
isolate the target, and it's smooth sailing from there. At this point, you
can run a few routines, do SS patterning (which includes asking questions
and gathering information), and so on.
> Ross: I keep explaining to my own students that CONTEXT is very important.

Mystery:  What IS this context? What you can do and what will work best
depends on the situation and the individual. Having said that, to explain
when to use what (in which type of situ) is in my view very helpful. To
know that certain rules apply for a 2set (which approach model will work
and why) but don't in a 3set for instance.
> In the case of a club or bar, you WILL have to deal with friends, AFC
cockblockers and other interruptions. I think there are some great ways
around it that you can learn from Tom and Kim at,
such as getting non-verbal rapport with the friends/blockers or, in the
alternative, "smurfing" them. Maybe Tom V. can jump in here and talk about
> Darren:By the way, magic tricks or other gimmicks DO NOT make the
approach; they are simply PART of it. In fact, I don't think I did ANY
magic (except for some mentalism, which failed anyway). I have never really
tried directly expressing interest or desire to a woman at the very
beginning. I am curious to how this will work. I have seen AFCs (some are
even quite good-looking) go up to HBs and say, "You are hot!" or "You are
so pretty" only to have them just smile and say "thank you" or laugh about
it with their friends.
>Ross: I think those kind of direct openers in a BAR or CLUB are more
likely to get you a negative result because of the built in
clickish/snotty/status/social approval factors.

Mystery: Yes, now I understand. When you are approaching a woman who is
alone (a 1set for lack of a better term) what you are saying is that a
SINCERE COMPLIMENT OPENER works. I can see how it could as she has to act
nice to you since she is alone. She is also not expecting to get hit on
(like in a bar where her BS will be on full alert). To open with "you are
stunning" in a club would bomb miserably but would get a "thanks" from a
girl sitting alone in a cafe. Thing is, why lay your cards on the table
like this even in a 1set? Why not open like you would a couple or 3set with
"hi ... do you think spells work?"  It initiates the chat without conveying
100% that you think she is beautiful. Once you give her THAT, you are at a
disadvantage. I mean, the "beauty is common" thing just doesn't have an
impact later ... unless you are using it right about your beauty opener.
>It still comes back to the challenge of getting past her friends to get
to your target. You didn't have that problem in the scenarios you illustrated.
>Ross: Yes, it is a different CONTEXT. The equipment that works for
hunting bear would get you drowned if you used it to hunt a shark!

Mystery:  So the context we are referring to is the SITUATION. And the
different situations we are referring to is a girl sitting alone and a
group set. THAT is the context. We can't use certain openers for girls who
are alone but can for groups, and vice versa. I understand. And here lies
the difference between SS and MM. (And this is in no way a MARKETING
distinction, people haaa). SS is geared more for the "approach the target
straight up and wow her with your sincerity" and MM is geared more for the
"approach the group, disarm them and isolate the target so you can then wow
her with your sincerity" way. Obviously both situations (groups and girls
alone) are out there. Thing is, you have to ask 2 questions: which is
easier (at first glance you'd think approaching the girl sitting alone) and
which situations happen more often.  In my experience (and yes this
includes cafe's and books stores and stuff.  I DO get out in the day, too
LOL), you will find worthy targets MOSTLY in 3sets. Some 2sets, some 4 and
5 sets, but MOSTLY in 3sets. And most rarely the single set. Why is it
rare? Because MOST guys sarging don't do it in LA, where it is POSSIBLE to
see a worthy girl sitting alone once in a while. Even certain 2sets are
very similar to a 1set in many respects (you know, 2 girls sitting there
and they are both hot - you can approach the target directly there but if
the obstacle is an UG, you better not alienate the obstacle this way or you
WILL see your target pulled away from you). SS is geared to a particular
geographic location: the cafe scene in LA in particular. I've travelled to
MANY places. MM seems to hold up quite nicely. In fact, I'd say my methods
(the cognitive model), once molded with the help of trial and error
(natural selection) have become pretty resilient in different environments
(from strip clubs, to Florida to LA to Europe). One thing is almost always
the NORM: hotties are found in GROUPS. Now, if a girl is in fact alone and
I want to meet her, I actually find this a burden. Why? Because I have to
completely restrain myself, fake in shyness in a big way, downplay my
skills. I approach her and she has no clue that I am a man with social
acceptance. She doesn't know that I have women falling for me. So the only
way to convey that is through the photo routine or I dunno. You know what
it sorta reminds me of? Exploiting the weak. HOT QUALITY girls don't sit
alone - they have a large social group. They have friends. If I'm trying to
hide and wait only for the ones sitting alone, I feel like I'm preying on
the meek. My ego gets satiated when I get not only the good looking, but
the good looking AND social center. Like a gogo dancer, a bartender, model,
actress, dancer, hostess, etc. to get the quiet girl sitting alone studying
to become a nurse with her little books at a cafe is ... too easy.  And
then you have a chick who is quite likely sexually repressed, doesn't enjoy
being your arm jewelry, etc. She needs to be asleep by 10 p.m. because she
has to work at CINNABUNS at 6 a.m. I'm not looking for the quiet bookworm
to pounce on as she sips her herbal tea or hot chocolate.  I'm looking for
the REAL HOT women, the social center of her peer group - the challenge -
that when won is by far worth the effort. Ross, since you've never been in
my lounge (I invited you once but you declined), you haven't seen the women
I 'date'.  They certainly aren't bookworms ... but at the same time they
aren't the far opposite of the spectrum, the sluts. They are beautiful
university grads who model and shit. I'm VERY selective.  Ask my former
students what type of women I close. Then ask them if they think I woulda
closed them if I hadn't adhered to GROUP THEORY.  Ask them if I could have
even APPROACHED them and had a chance to conduct SS patterns on the target
as she is sitting deep within her 8set.
> MB: I am not good at canned speeches but I like to have themes in terms
of what I talk about. I will talk about sex, blowjobs, attraction, beauty,
romance, having fun but just not in a pattern type of way. This way women
feel free to express that side to themselves. I tell women that I play with
myself in the shower and they admit to also doing it, even at work.

Mystery:  Trust building. cool.
> MB: I'll say "I am not at all inhibited sexually. In fact, I say that "I
will do anything in bed" to which they say "yeah, me too". BUT I still have
to initiate sex or kissing if I want to bone them a they rarely come out on
their own.
>Ross: I hear you. I agree. Even with SS, I usually have to make the first
physical move.

Mystery: I hear BOTH of you. : ) I'm the guy dealing with last minute
resistance, not them haa. Of course I TRY to give a little struggle haa.
> MB: You think I am that good looking but I do not believe that I really
am, maybe above average at best.
>Ross: Well, you have commented that women change their positive response
to you when you decrease your body fat or make minor changes in your
appearance that they notice right away.
> MB: I have been experimenting with being a little bit more quiet and
subdued when I talk to women and they are drawn to me much much more than
if I stayed loud and obnoxious. Irrespective of my looks, I feel that I
still need to use words as much as you to succeed and use them the right
way. In fact, what you describe above is almost exactly what I do as well.
I feel though that this process does not create attraction but helps to
bring it out of them. This is where our respectful differences of opinion lie.
>Ross: Ok. I get you. In your mind, your are allowing the attraction to
come out and in my mind I am creating it. Let's meet in the middle and say
we are EVOKING it. And, I still say, out of the gate, you have a bit of an
advantage with the well-muscled body.

Mystery:  I feel like I am CONVEYING specific personality traits (alphamale
characteristics) by DEMONSTRATING them through the use of MATERIAL. Then I
look for IOIs. She COULD be attracted from the getgo for all I know but
until I see IOIs, I won't know this. So BOTH of you are right. She has to
become ATTRACTED to me and THEN has to CONVEY that interest before I know.
I do ATTRACTIVE THINGS (in the group), create challenge (NEGs) and then
isolate to look for IOIs.
>> Ross: THEN I can express directly what I want from them. But I have to
do it in the right sequence and order, or I don't very often at all get
anywhere. Strong confidence/balls/directness impresses them sufficiently to
get them to listen and pay attention to the rest of it, which creates the
attraction. I believe that the ways in which you talk and listen and ask
questions ARE patterns, and if I looked at a transcript, I could probably
break it down.
> MB: Maybe there are patterns there. I'll play Kiss' "Lick it up" in the
car and get them to sing along with me or "I was made for loving you baby,
you were made for love me" also by Kiss. They give me that "fuck me" look
and I know I am in.
>Ross: Ha ha. Let the band do it for you! I don't own a single Kiss CD,
but I'll have to find that one! Good suggestion!

Mystery: Agreed. Here's what I've done: when you get the girl to your
place, turn off all the lights and kneel towards each other on the
bed.  Then listen to the music and sing it - for yourself.  Get into the
music. She will empathize with you and the music. She will be allowed to
get into it, too.  Music can stir emotions. Let the music set you free : D
>> Ross: So even you are doing more than you know. You may not be doing
trance demonstrations or reciting the blow job pattern, but I don't think
you need to; remember, women are getting hot just LOOKING at you before you
open your mouth, based on your muscles, etc. etc, etc. For many of us here,
we don't walk into it with that advantage. It makes me a bit frustrated
that this is such a hard point for you to get or accept.
> By the way, there is no such thing as gravity in the sense of earth
having some special pulling power on objects. What keeps us on earth is
that the earth bends space around itself thus creating a down special sort
of like slide that keep us on earth.
> Ross: Depends. Actually, gravity waves have been detected in space.
Gravity both describes how mass warps space and the attraction between
objects, depending on the frame of reference.

Mystery:  Good point. in given situations, one model holds true and in
others, the other. Same with MM and SS. SS (to me) is more WAVE FUNCTION
while MM is more QUANTUM. Of course, BOTH models work, but only in certain
situs. What are those situs? SINGLES vs. GROUPS. I guess when people are
choosing when to use which model, they also have to ask the question:
"which model fits MORE situs?" because I'd say like 65 to 75% of the worthy
targets are in 3sets. Isolate the target MM style and drop some SS on her.
> Toecutter: So I ask you to be a little more long sighted with this
talking about how ugly you are and how easy it is for the good-looking guys
and not going to clubs, because there are people out here reading what you
say. And these words and behaviours are capable of changing beliefs and are
intimately linked with success with women. They are both bad beliefs. I
suggest you change them. Because being an attractive man is nothing more
than good grooming and self talk.

Mystery: Agreed! Strongly agreed! Look at rhett butler. That be an ugly
man. But you'd never know it by his demeanor.
> Ross: Let me clear it up. I do NOT think I am ugly. My belief about my
attractiveness is, "He's not what you would consider classically good
looking, but he is VERY attractive in his own way, in his own right".

Mystery:  "If you can't fix it, feature it."  Ross is highlighting his
'ugliness' to help market his products, since it's not a feature that is
going away. I suppose that's fair. He's not THAT ugly, but he can say, "if
'I' can do it, you can." In a different way, I guess I find that some
people say, "Well, Mystery, you are tall, that must help." and I guess I
downplay it because I personally know that if I didn't shine out my
personality, I'd get nowhere! They don't though. They see TALL and think,
THAT is the reason. They don't live in my (big) shoes. So in my situation,
I MINIMIZE the objection. So in your debate, I see both sides. ONE is
FEATURING and the other MINIMIZING. "YOU have good looks and that helps"
says one and the other says, "you'd be surprised just how little it helps."
> What I HAVE said is that I will seldom turn heads just by walking into a
crowded room (unless it is a seminar room and I am teaching!). That, if you
took a PIC of me and a PIC of Mark B, women would pick Mark's pic as being
their pick...oh, stop nit-picking! Attractive is as attractive does.

Mystery:  Yes, MM in a nutshell.

On that score, given the right elements, I can be EXTREMELY attractive. I
don't think I'm classically good looking, but so what?
> Clifford: Looks are better to have than not to, but charm, a sense of
humour, the ability to take action and approach, and a warmth, I think,
will get you further overall than a guy relying only on his looks to succeed.

Mystery:  Hear hear.

Ross: I agree. Unless you are doing or online..then you better
have a pretty good-looking pic.

Mystery:  True dat haaa.


> Darren:   4. I wish we had gone to a higher-class, more exclusive, and
more beautiful-people place for at least one night. I felt there were not
quite enough HBs at the places we visited, so I didn't feel as motivated
to  approach and to close.

Leo:  It's the same everywhere in Toronto, man.  You want to see tons, and
I mean *tons* of hottest women here? Go to the Guvernment on a Saturday
night. Don't go through the main room though, go through Drinks or
Charlies, then you can walk around the whole complex. (I'm
not sure it's a perfect place for your game though).


Gold Dragon Phoenix:
This ongoing conversation about looks is interesting. One thing I noticed
is that it generally seems to be guys who are handsome and/or muscular who
are pushing the "looks don't matter" theory. They back up their claims by
saying "I will NEVER get a girl by my looks alone" or some other straw man.
That sounds like one of the Rockefellers saying that family money didn't
matter because he succeeded in business as an individual, and they never
create wealth just sitting at home. It's true, but it misses the point.
Looks are important to picking up women. Anyone who disagrees is encouraged
to post two personal ads online, using the same info in
both profiles but use a pic of a buff guy for one and a pic of a Dex
lookalike for the other, and let us know your results. For extra credit,
post the same profile info with no picture. When I
did this, the hot guy profile got email from at least 20 times as many
women as the fat guy. Even the no pic ad got a few more responses than fat
guy profile. But looks don't matter, right?
Maybe it is true Erik will NEVER get a girl by his looks alone, like a
Harvard graduate will never get a job by his Ivy League degree alone. Would
it help you get the initial interview? Does
it open doors? I think the answer is yes. Can you get a job if you
graduated from Podunk State? Can you get laid if you are an average looking
guy? Of course, but you may have to work harder.  Can a high school dropout
get a job with top consulting firm and can a fat, ugly, poorly dressed guy
get laid by a mega babe? I think it's still possible, but is going to take
A LOT of work.
One last thought on this from me..the guy from Podunk State, or even the
high school dropout, has a better chance of getting the job if he applies,
than does the Harvard grad who doesn't apply.  The moral of the story?
Whatever you look like..go out and meet women..apply your MM/SS/PUA
skills..and you WILL get laid more.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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