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His arm is on the back of the couch not on her shoulder
2/7/02 5:57:24 PM Eastern Standard Time


> Ross: If YOU are still going to clubs when you hit 43, you've got a
problem. I've
found better ways FOR me, with my age and what I want to do with my health
and energy.

HitmanPT: I've seen many 40/50 year old guys in clubs, dancing almost all
night long. For example: last weekend I went to a new club that just
recently open; I was there with some friends and a guy came to my
attention: he must be at least 48 years old, was bold, not very attractive.
He tried to PU almost every single women in that club (I admit it wasn't
many). At first, he crashed and burned, but then there was a hot girl
(maybe 25 years old) dancing all by herself (I don't know who was she
with), he went there & started dancing with her, they
didn't say a word to each other, after a while they were making out and
left together! It wasn't the first time I see some guy in his forties go
home with younger girls in clubs, there isn't much to it, maybe just some
dancing skills.
Ross I rarely use your method on club girls, but I must admit it's the best
on girls I meet in the mall, street, library.  On club girls I often use
MM, but what I like the most is just go there and dance with them, don't
say anything, just a lot of eye contact and kino!
> Ciz (from private email):  Hey Mark B, what was it like in Europe
compared to North America? Did you notice the chicks being much more open
to sex and were you getting more and hotter girls than you currently have
in Canada???

HitmanPT: I've never been to North America so I don't know how is it there,
but on holidays (summer) in Portugal (more specifically in Algarve) all the
English, Dutch, & German girls are so easy to lay. Even when I was younger
and didn't know anything about this "philosophy" (for lack of better term),
I could easily go home with 2 foreign girls a night! Really, it's that easy.
The Portuguese girls are a little more difficult but I still get it anyway.
There are clubs here that it just takes a confident guy and a little eye
contact to get them to make out with you on the dance floor. Don't get me
wrong, I do not get laid only in clubs or because of my looks and
confidence (but that's an important part).  I'm not the best looking guy in
the world, I consider myself a little above the average. I do try almost
all of the techniques described here, I use them depending of the girl.
I've adjusted some of Ross' patterns to the Portuguese language and also
tried MM.  The Portuguese people are a friendly people by nature so it's
easier to do street
pickups. The best place for PU is the mall. There are lots of girls just
wandering around all or whatever.  One opening line I use
with success is:
"Do you know where can I get a decent cup of coffee in here?" and then just
her if she wants to join me. As soon as I get her to come with me, I start
kino right away. Usually I get #closes, never @closes, and rarely
f*closes.  Anyway, I encourage you all to try PU in Portugal, if you
already been here I would really like to know what do you think about it.


Hey guys, I'm doing a workshop in NYC on Feb 15 16 and 17. We have some
ADVANCED SS students signed up ready to take their game to the next level.
Join the fun. Oh and I have one in LA, Feb 28, Mar 1
& 2. Get your ass in gear and finally GET IT.
>ROSS Now, also, I keep getting emails from guys who claim I'm getting
bashed on Mystery's Lounge and why don't I jump in and defend myself, etc.

Mystery  No bashing happening in there, bro.  Just the typical SS vs MM
debate. I'm not bashing anything or anyone. The debate is basically the
diff between approaching SINGLES (or COUPLES) versus GROUPS. Your shit is
for SINGLES and COUPLES more and mine for GROUPS. The issue is, more
hotties are found in GROUPS (and hotter girls in general) and you get to
practice more where there are many GROUPS, i.e. clubs. BUT! Does this mean
I never approach singles or couples in cafes? No! It just means MOST
HOTTIES are in 3sets (just a statistical thing). And YES there IS a
difference in approach between GROUPS and COUPLES/SINGLES. A diff MO.
>Ross: I appreciate the support, but I have better things to do. If Mys or
others want to bash me, let them go to town.

Mystery:  No bashing happening. Just lots of questions ...
> Ross:  ****I**** know SS is light-years beyond what they think it is; it
has moved SO far away from canned patterns and towards creating a
hyper-responsive state for women where they can experience amazing feelings
that I think the boys slamming me haven't a clue as to where I and the
technology are TODAY. I've also got NO bone to pick with Mystery. I've
figured out the major aspects of what he does, it makes sense to me, I can
see how it might apply at approaching an entire party of women out at a
restaurant for girls' night out, as well as at a club or bar. I also know
that Chris P, one of his prime students, is to put it mildly, a HUGE
convert to Speed Seduction», and that Chris has seen me in action and has
let Mys know in no uncertain terms that I am the real item and that I can
do some amazing things.

Mystery:  Tru dat. I trust Chris' judgement and he says you have the goods.
For ME, it's a matter of marrying SS ideas into an MM framework ... the
ANALOG style NLP thing (full of metaphors) with the more DIGITAL "what to
say and when" technique centered thing. Right now, I'm working with the
concept of FRACTIONATING. It's tough to make this fit my model of reality.
But I'm trying now. Chris will help me when we hook up in NYC next week for
the workshop.
> Ross: So...let a thousand petals blossom and a thousand schools of
seduction contend, to quote Chairman Mao. I don't need to make anyone wrong
and anyone who is in ANY way actually helping guys dip their wicks with
better quality of women has my support, as long as what they are teaching
WORKS and they aren't bashing me to market their own product.

Mystery:  It's so funny cause this debate is so old and its not between
Ross and I. One guy shoots down SS and I defend it. The only thing I still
can't get is how to take analog ideas and make them more digital, more
PRACTICAL in their application. We had a debate about LINEARNESS. Ross is
(or was) notoriously NON-LINEAR. Because the approach is so DYNAMIC and
there are many different approach situs, it seemed like it had to be.
However, over time, he began to put more structure to his seminars (so I
heard). And over the years, my model evolved to have greater
predictability. Now, I'm pretty much always on fire and the model is quite
linear. The model is working amazingly. For those interested in the model,
fuck it. Here it is:
Here is the basic format to most approaches (3sets+):
1. Smile when you walk into the room.  See the group with the target and 3
rule it. Say HI. *smile*
2. Recite a memorized opener, if not 2 or 3 in a row.
3. The opener should OPEN the group. When talking, ignore the target for
the most part. This is ACTIVE IGNORANCE.
4. Neg the target with one of the slew of negs we've come up with.
5. Convey personality to the entire group (using stories, SEX MAGIC,
anecdotes, humor), paying particular attention the UGs. During this time,
the target sees you are the center of attention. You may do various
memorized routines like the photo routine to an obstacle and say to the
target when she wants to look at the pix, "Wait your turn. Wow, is she
always like that?"
6. Neg the target again if appropriate. "Pull my finger."
7. Ask "So how does everyone know each other?" if the target is with one of
the guys, find out how long they've been together.  If a long time, eject
8. If she is not with one of the guys, say to the group, "I've sorta been
alienating your friend (target). Is it alright if I speak to her for a
couple minutes?" They always say "Uh, sure, if it's ok with her."
9. ISOLATE her from the group by taking her 1:1 to sit with you. As you do,
do a hand kino test (does she squeeze back when you hold her hand,
directing her through the crowd?).  Start looking for IOIs.
10. Sit with her and do SEX MAGIC, like a runecast, for instance. That's
your REASON for isolating. Or an ESP test where you hold her hands (again
looking for IOIs). Then do the digital photo routine. See if you can kiss
her with it.
11. Tell her beauty is common but rare is great energy and outlook. "What
do you have inside that would make me want to know you more than a mere
face in the crowd?" If she begins to give qualities, this is a positive IOI.
12. STOP TALKING. Does she reinitiate the chat with "So ..."? If so, you've
seen 3 IOIs and can ...
13 KISS CLOSE. Right out of the blue. "Would you like to kiss me?" if this
is impossible to perform due to the situation, then time constraint
yourself and say, "I have to go but we should continue this." # CLOSE, give
phone rules and leave.
> Ross: I have NOTHING to students are proving it FOR me and
pushing the envelope of persuasion and seduction so far that we are leaving
the "competition" 20 years behind at least. And as for the full on rip-off
imitators, as I told Yates, I can CREATE faster than they can STEAL. The
ultimate insurance and protection....

Mystery: That's how I've been feeling lately. haa. cool.
> Mystery: BTW, I'm not performing mentalism and such on groups because
I'm a magician. I'm a magician because the performance of magic WORKS to
befriend groups. Again, not card and coin trick magic. Runecasting, PK
energy experiments, mind-reading, psychology tests, etc. Last night I
carried a WICCA book into the strip club and this was great
> Ross: I agree, this is fantastic bait for the "trap" so to speak. Women
eat this up, but this is the very stuff another "expert" on this list
dismissed as "faggot shit". HIS words, NOT mine!

Mystery:  Moving objects from a distance with your mind may be considered
faggot, but you know what?  It completely disarms a group and allows you to
neg the target and get her to chase you. I love women enough to be a faggot
then : D *big faggot grin* BTW: I have used your, "Too bad I'm gay ..."
routine. It's great! I have black nails after all.
> Toecutter: The first behaviour is that he will not do clubs and bars.
Now, this is just plain ludicrous for anyone who claims to be a seductionist.
>Ross: Toesy, remember who you are talking to here. I'm 43 years old. Push
into your 40's and staying up til 3 a.m. isn't part of the lifestyle if you
are half-way sane and care about your health at all. I don't do clubs also
because of the late hours. Call me a pussy or call me grand-pa...I've just
evolved better ways to meet women that don't put such a strain on me.

Ross:  It's one thing to say, "I don't do clubs cause it's not part of my
lifestyle" (that's completely understandable) but it's another to say, "Why
go to clubs and get fast paced experience under your belt when you can pick
on the shy weak girls sitting alone drinking their little hot chocolates".
YOU don't do clubs because it's not YOU, but you are missing out on the
experience that builds from it. I must have literally thousands of
additional approaches under my belt than you. A dozen a night, night after
night for YEARS. You just can't beat the EXPERIENCE. It's not a personal
bash, it's just physics. MM wasn't just INVENTED out of my head. It was
backwards engineered from what I was successfully DOING in the field.
> Ross: If YOU want to do clubs, Toesy, then do so. At 43, I might go to a
neighborhood bar early in the evening, but I'm leaving by midnite.

Mystery:  So then we are talking about a difference between a lifestyle
choice and increasing one's learning curve.  You choose lifestyle over
learning. I include my learning curve IN my lifestyle. I recommend this to
students who wish to get better at their game. If they get to a level where
they don't need to improve dramatically, then they can settle down a
little. In fact, I have already decided not to go to clubs unless I'm
promoting a show or conducting a workshop. That way I HARNESS my sex drive.
If I want to meet more girls, I have to force myself to make money in order
to do it. Cool, huh!  Also, I enjoy the added challenge of getting girls
while I'm in a group of scary guys who stand too close and almost blow my
approach. : ) I would normally be surrounded by girls before I approach the
next set. I like challenging myself now.
> Ross: Forget about trendy clubs UNLESS I am going with a VIP so I am
VIEWED as VIP already by virtue of being in that section.Or, unless I have
a young lady with me. I lost my 23 year old escort and am looking to
replace her.

Mystery:  Well, I'm a faggot. Get me some heels and you're good to go.
> Toecutter: I personally feel that Mark B. measures his success
differently to me. There is no way that Mark can isolate the club queen
from her entourage, for example. But, Ross, when you push Mark's claims as
if he can seduce any women with these methods you are not helping. Because
if Mark B. can get laid using those methods (or lack thereof) then everyone
has to believe that it is just on his looks. I understand that for the
short term marketing goals of having customers say "if Ross can get laid,
and he is the champion of the ugly guys (while Mystery and DD need no game
just like that Mark B. guy
Ross: Wow, everyone is a critic these days. Poor little me. I feel SOOO
attacked. Slammed left and right. Look here, my man. I can't be responsible
for everyone. I create the tech, get it out there....people are going to do
what they will. I think this guy you are talking about needs to get up off
his ass, get past his fear, and work a club or two. If YOU are still going
to clubs when you hit 43, you've got a problem.

Mystery:  I disagree. What if a 43 year old sucks at the game and WANTS to
get experience and get good now?  He wants 20 year olds, or strippers.
Well, going on nature hikes and meeting only one or two hotties (I'm not
saying their aren't more, just less OPPORTUNITY to actually approach in a
given period of time) may be fun, but it's not exactly EFFICIENT to
increasing your learning curve.
> Ross: I've found better ways FOR me, with my age and what I want to do
with my health and energy. More power to you Toesy..I like your posts. I
don't ask my students to emulate me or my life-style choices. Frankly, it's
none of their bees-wax.

Mystery: I like to show them the goods - then deliver the methods right to
their motor response so they can emulate what works.  From there, they can
take the knowledge and adapt it to their own style. No9, for instance, has
come very far since we met like 1.5 years ago or so. He understands the use
of Sex Magic but no longer uses it. It's THERE for him to use at any time
(more routines for when you need 'em) but he says he doesn't go nuts with
it.  You don't have to.  The real power is STORY-TELLING. The sex magic
routines merely teach you HOW to evoke emotions in others and how to convey
personality in a short period. A photo routine is not sex magic but it
works LIKE MAGIC, too.
> MB: I tend to only focus on her but only after I make sure that there is
a lull in the interaction between her and her friends. If they are totally
engaged I wait for an opportunity where she is on her own for a bit or if
they are just standing around doing nothing. I pick my spots very
carefully. I have rarely had her friends interfere if I am talking to her
and if they do I say "I am talking to your friend here, please do not
interrupt" in a playful way.

Mystery:  Consider the GROUP THEORY thing, bro. It's worth the effort to
work the friends first because the cool thing is, when you are speaking to
them and actively ignoring the target, she STILL gets to hear everything
you are saying. Your personality still goes into her head. : )
> And yes, if you CANNOT successfully isolate the girl from the group, you
will NOT be able to talk with her and test for IOIs and then express your
> MB: Sometimes they just isolate themselves when I approach her if she is
into me so I do not have to worry about this.

Mystery: I KNOW this is limiting the opportunities.  You are waiting for
the situation to be ... RIGHT ... rather than looking for the RIGHT WOMAN
and meeting her through ... FRIENDS.
> MB: If they do not I just try to get their attention and sometimes
they'll just see what I want and isolate themselves.

Mystery:  Hate it.  Good that you are approaching, of course.  It's just a
consideration to increase your opportunities. There are MANY great
situations you are not approaching because you are waiting for SPECIFIC
situations rather than going in right away ... you never know when a hottie
will no longer be approachable - time constraints impose themselves out of
nowhere sometimes.
>  You are assuming you have already isolated the target though. When,
though, do you ever see a woman of great beauty sitting alone? That's quite
rare. Besides, what is the story girls tell their friends when asked,
"how'd you meet your boyfriend?" The answer is almost always, "through
friends." That is why you first befriend the peer group and then you get to
isolate the girl.
> MB: Well, I have never boned an HB and only had one date with a HB
through friends. All others were cold approaches. This is my preferred method.

Mystery:  Oh, same here, bro. COLD APPROACHES.  The point though (which I
think was missed - sorry I didn't convey my message properly) is that you
can BEFRIEND the group right there and then.  That way you DID meet her
through friends. It's still a cold approach, but you approached the GROUP
first. For instance, let's say a model is sitting with 2 girls who are also
models and a guy who is their agent.  Would you do it YOUR way or MY
way?  Which would get you better results? Approach the guy, ignore the
target, involve the other girls but don't hit on them. "Win the men and you
win the women." OWN the MAN. Make him your bud. Then, after you isolate the
target and find IOIs, you can say to the rest of the group, "I like your
friend.  Are you ok with that?"   This is GREAT! See, you are removing
FUTURE OBJECTIONS. : )  It's sweet man, trust me.
> I never worry about being on good terms with her friends, that comes later.

Mystery: FUTURE OBJECTIONS have to be handled THEN, not LATER.  When they
get in the car and drive home and her best friend says, "That guy was an
asshole" (which they will if she's ugly and you alienated her by not
talking with her FIRST), you will NOT get your girl. THAT, TOO, comes from
experience. Dude, I used to DO it your way!!!!!! This is the next level up
man, really. It's great. CONSIDER GROUP THEORY, that's all.
>How I meet her is totally irrelevant. But how many times will a woman
admit she met a guy who "picked me up while I was drunk in a bar" does not
look good on them so they lie.

Mystery:  And that's why "we met through friends" is so nice. And if you
apply group theory, she will say this! : )
> Thing is, most often it is the 10 that gets hit on so often that they
soon discover the BITCH SHIELD strategy an effective way to counter all the
losers bugging her in a day. Are they Bitches? No. Are they "man haters"?
No. Are they "insecure"? No. They are merely using an effective strategy to
get rid of losers. So what does MM do? It EXPLOITS the fact that HOT women
are using this tactic and doesn't take it personally and label the GIRL as
defective. How does it exploit the fact? NEG THEORY.
> MB: I have rarely met a woman who, even if she was married or had BF did
not appreciate some form of positive attention. But sometimes she just
hates men. I tried to pick up this one HB8 once who said "I just want to be
left alone. I was just divorced and am seeing a new guy who is just my
young toy for now and do not need any other man bullshit in my life". She
had a total bitch look on her face and seemed very cold. I saw about 20
guys - good looking average and ugly try to pick her up only to walk away
with a shot down look on their face.

Mystery: Aaaah, you shmuck!!!! (lovingly said, of course!) THAT was her
strategy!  Dude, THAT is the girl I would have gotten!  No joke. She HAS to
say what she said what with 20 guys hitting on her. And guess what?  Her
little story not only worked to get rid of all those guys, but YOU, TOO!  A
PUA! : )  Picking up a 10 is the exception to the rule, dude. She didn't
have a boy toy.  That's bullshit.  She went home alone.  You COULD have
gotten her ... NEG THEORY is DESIGNED for 10's! See the logical
error?  Because she gave you her bitch shield, you fell for it and labeled
her a MAN HATER.  She wasn't.  She was just a LOSER-HATER. You have to be
different so you don't appear a LOSER.  One GREAT way is to actively ignore
her by being the center of attention within her own peer group while you
neg her and lower her self esteem. I've been there, dude!  This shit works.
Anyone see my work care to comment on my shit?
> Even if she was not into any of them at least she could have had some
fun for the night but she shot all of them down and left with her
girlfriend alone that night.

Mystery: Yep.  And so just by approaching directly, you get labeled LOSER
to her.  She could have ANYONE.  Anyone ... but YOU!  That's when she will
chase you.  Don't approach the target directly.  Even more so, don't
approach her GROUP directly. Approach an adjacent group and MERGE one group
(preferably with women) with HER group. That way you were covered with
social proof before you entered. I do this ALL the time. It's STANDARD
GROUP THEORY, dude. : ) I love this shit! You lost the opportunity because
you didn't practice for those situations.  The BEST girls are always
knocking guys down. ENJOY the challenge and use GROUP THEORY and NEG THEORY
to EXPLOIT her strategy.  Heheehe.
>You're right, though, when you suggest that sometimes it's just a bitch
shield but again she will cut you some slack by somehow inviting you to
crack it open for her if she is into you.

Mystery: That's FLIRTING, dude haaaa. : )
> Mystery: Again, I'm confused. Are you suggesting we approach the target
directly? You can't "genuinely express your attraction and desire" to a 10
who is sitting with 3 guys, dude.
> MB: I always approach a target directly. Yeah, I know if she is there
with 3 guys I can't so I look for a break in the action or another young
gazelle that has broken off from the heard and then pounce on her.

Mystery: Step up a level in your game.  Thing is, and I KNOW you have
observed this: the BEST girls never become ALONE for even a moment. Between
her gaggle of girlfriends protecting her, her guys buzzing around and then
all the loser guys approaching her directly, you don't get the IN you are
looking for. But isn't she worth the effort? Sure!  So you find the kink in
the armor! The MEN! Go in and befriend the men - but do it with a couple
girls in YOUR group - see? This is the WAY. You approach a 2set (the girls
could be 7s or 8s - it doesn't matter) and then when disarmed, PAWN THEM.
Do this by bringing them to the guys who are hanging with that girl you
want. See, the guys want to talk with the girls so they treat you nice. The
target sees the guys liking you, sees you with girls, sees you the center
of the group and you then actively ignore the target and NEG her, making
her think you don't like her so she will work to fix that and she starts to
try to attract you. Only you then neg again and this builds til she is
almost at the breaking point. Then you say to the guys (after you find out
how everyone knows each other), "I've been alienating your friend.  May I
speak with her privately for a couple minutes?"  This ROCKS! Then you
isolate her, giving her the attention she has been craving. Look at the
situ from her eyes: you are a guy with girls on your arm (she doesn't know
they were just met) and the guys that were paying attention to HER are now
paying attention to YOU. YOU are the ALPHA MALE». Then you make her feel
like you don't like her even though everyone else clearly does. Why do the
guys like you?  Because not only do you have girls with you (that they try
for so they have to be nice to you to find out who you are to the girls -
HENCE PAWNING!!!!!) but also because you are negging the hottest girl in
the group and this is a fucking funny thing. They think you must have a
hottie at home or something or you wouldn't say, "Pull my finger" to such a
hot girl. It's PERFECT. And guess what? PERFECTED!!!!! GROUP THEORY MAN!
Learn it. Use it. Teach it.
> Besides is she really the only one there or is she really that hot that
you need to have the one that's with 3 other guys?

Mystery:  The REAL hotties are ALWAYS surrounded by people, bro.  You know
>MB: All my approaches are cold. I watch for a while and see how she
responds to her environment. How she talks to her friends and other stuff.
When I do approach her and I find that if she is not into me then I can't
do much about it

Mystery:  Aaaah you see the failure? She has to choose to talk with you
based on your 5 second first impression. But if you approached the group,
you could make your first impression last 5 minutes long with great stories
and enthusiasm. She doesn't have to choose whether she should talk to you
or not right away. Let her choose that after she gets to see you talk for a
bit. To approach and say, "Hi, can I talk to you?" sucks. She will more
likely say no because it's her PATTERN to ASSUME you are just the next
loser in line. Dude, I've had GF's who were 10's. This is their PATTERN,
their PROGRAM. they are used to loser approaches. It's part of their
reality. BUT! They don't want to say yes to SOME GUY. They want to meet
their LOVED ONE "through friends." Have I convinced you? My workshop
TEACHES group theory in a BIG WAY. You can do approaches. Now let's get you
up to speed!
> But if she is then she'll usually cut me some slack and give me room to
manoeuvre and even keep her friends at bay.

Mystery:  And she'll only do that based on the view of you that she made in
too short of a time. If you are hot, ok, you have a chance, but wouldn't it
be nice to add in 5 to 10 minutes of talk before she needs to decide?
That's why a comedian who performs gets laid more than a comedian who
doesn't. Does that make sense?

This diverted the topic to sex for the next 2 hours where she told me how
much she likes to fuck, her fantasies and how she likes to swallow.

Mystery:  Was she a ten? I doubt it. Toronto? A girl you can approach
directly? No way. I'm talking about approaching TENS, dude. TENS! The once
>MB: Yes, the target. I never really gave much thought to the need to
isolate anyone as it never really came up as something that needed to be
done or ever really presented an obstacle.

Mystery: Waiting for the RIGHT type of situ means there are shit loads of
ops you are totally NOT going for.  A girl sitting on a couch with a guy
and his arms around her. I notice, his arm is on the back of the couch not
on her shoulder. That was enough clue. I went in. 15 minutes later, #
close. 2 days later BJ.  Sometimes in order to be the exception to rule, we
must find situations that are the exception to the rule. In fact, I have
better chance getting a girl in a HARD situation because you come off with
such confidence and dude, CONFIDENCE is like #1 on the ALPHA MALE» LIST that
women respond to.
> Like I said, if she is into me then she'll cut me lack and keep her
friends from interfering.

Mystery:  How can she be into you if you didn't have time to convey your
personality, though? Convey within her group and then she will LOVE to talk
with you isolated. They are often honored to talk with me privately by the
time I get to her. (I'm not lying, ask any of my students).
> MB: If she turns away then she is not into me and if try harder I look
like a fool.

Mystery: Agreed. Don't try HARDER. But you can set up a better situ to
convey MORE great characteristics of an alpha male» BEFORE she has to choose
whether to talk to you privately or not. GROUP THEORY IS MAGIC!
> I have landed a few strippers under 60 seconds "You know I loved your show.

Mystery:  Horrible!
> You looked great out there.

Mystery:  Horrible!
>A hugely imaginative routine.

Mystery:  Good.
> I have to run but I would love to get an opportunity to get to know you
outside of the bar" and gotten numbers and then gotten laid.

Mystery:  Horrible. They must choose you based on 10 seconds. No social
proof, no alpha male» characteristics. No humor. No great envious persona.
She can decide based only on looks and lame compliment (ones she got a shit
load of times).  Your successes have been aberrations.
>MB: I never give this isolating thing any thought. When I see a break in
the action, I pounce. In other words, rather than approaching the herd and
trying to get one to stray away I wait until she strays from the heard and
then make my move.

Mystery:  That is a glorious waste of time. Watch me work a room, dude,
serious. I'll teach ya some great shit that will completely change your
game forever. No word of a lie.  You are READY.
>MB: Once again I cannot stress enough how looks may help you get a girl
to approach you initially or make the initial intro easier but looks very,
very quickly lose their appeal or power once you begin to interact.

Mystery:  We can't allow a girl to DECIDE whether she wants to talk with us
based on our LOOKS. Our initial approach must pack more of a punch. We
trick them into a conversation that, 3 minutes in, she notices, wow, I
didn't notice he may be picking me up.
> If Ross gets laid, then it's because of his verbal skills and his
personality. For me, looking better makes the initial approach easier but
as time progresses it takes skill to make it happen. I have never, ever
just stood there and had a woman approach me and say she would like me to
fuck her on the basis of my looks (well, no, it happened once in November
of 1994 and she was older and drunk).

Mystery:  If we wait for the girls to approach US, we don't get OUR CHOICE
of the room. If we wait for the ones to stray from their group, we don't
>Leo: It's the same everywhere in Toronto, man. You want to see tons,
and  I mean *tons* of hottest women here? Go to the Guvernment on a
Saturday night. Don't go through the main room though, go through Drinks or
Charlies, then you can walk around the whole complex. (I'm  not sure it's a
perfect place for your game though).

Mystery:  It's good! Great place to sarge. But the way to do it FOR ME is
to do a 10 minute set on stage and then work the room after.  Those girls
want social proof big time.


>I express my sexuality first thus making them feel like they can do so as
well. As far as where to go I would suggest France, Germany, Italy, Greece
but you can do your own research on those. But I hear that women in Hungary
and Romania are super hot and will fuck you at the drop of a dime -
literally. As far as what an American can do down there again you'd have to
do your own research on this, but maybe teaching English could be an
option. But rest
assured that you do not have to play these dumb fucking ass bullshit games
down there. It's sort of like "hey, wanna fuck" "O.K. let's go" if she is
game rather than himming and humming even if she wants to bone but does not
want to look like a slut.

Insider: I think it's definitely cool to get out to other parts of the
world and realize, by comparison, that American society is full of all
kinds of shit tests. I do need to note, however, for those of us who are
Americans, it would be prudent to find out what the general sentiment is
with regards to the specific country's attitudes towards America. In view
of the 9/11
tragedy, a lot of our so-called "allies" are having issues with the way
America is handling the current situation, and the war on terrorism. From a
social standpoint, this is getting more and more complex. I even have
issues myself, but this should all be factored in before you go. Some
countries that may have been more amiable to Americans before 9/11, now
could be very
different depending on where you are headed. This is just an FYI


I argue that ALL GUYS are capable of being good looking. Think about what
John Cusack looked like in "Being John Malkovich". He might look like a
couple of you guys who consider yourself ugly. In fact, with the right hair
cut and image, John Cusack is sometimes voted as better looking than Tom
Cruise. Like amongst the sexiest men in the world. Now if that guy in Being
John Malkovich with a change of wardrobe can be sexy, surely you can. Now,
I know some here have said that they are good looking and get girls walking
up and complimenting them all the time. I met one of the guys who said that
on this list (he is a good wing btw, and I will go out with him on many
more occasions). I think he may have been stretching the truth just a
little. Like generalizing once or twice in his life out to all the time
(not that we discussed it). I would not call him miles better looking than
me (although he may be, what the hell would I know?). However, I broached
the subject with my sister's boyfriend who worked as both a model and a
professional footballer. He said he never gets complimented by anyone
except girlfriends and family also and was knocked out when they approached
him to become a model. He thought he looked like a big idiot football
player. So now, just imagine for a second that YOU, yes you Mr. Reader, are
as good looking as my sister's boyfriend. You may not know it. Because no
one tells him either, just like they don't tell you.
So again summing up, I do not believe that only the attractive get women,
and I don't believe that there is some clearly defined stereotype of what
attractive means for a man. Women like a man with game who has a lot going
for him and glides through the world easily. This whole looks argument is
bound to continue going round and round in circles with ugly guys telling
good looking guys that they get it easy, and good looking guys telling ugly
guys that they don't. What are you guys who consider yourself ugly going to
do? Bitch about it, or work with what you have? My suggestion is that the
first thing that needs to change is that your belief that you are
unattractive needs to be re-framed. Because at the moment you are shooting
yourself in the foot with the ladies before you even begin. And as soon as
you believe that you are good looking, you will be sitting here with me
going ... "Yeah, I am good looking, and I KNOW it doesn't mean that I get
girls super easily!  I need a lot of game."

I think this status thing is way over emphasized also. The way I do it, is
not so much status with all the obstacles, etc. If there are guys in the
group, I'll just speak to them. I'll ask for their opinion on something. I
am actively NOT intimidating them. I just want their acceptance so I can
start talking to their girls. Just making friends. Similarly with the girls
with the exception of the target. Of course I in no way show that I am
overwhelmed by any beauty. But it is more an equal thing than some sort of
power play or status grabbing.

Psychic seduction IMO is a load of rubbish and is an unreliable system for
seducing women (unless you want to go to James Randi and collect your
million dollars).

It has been said that NLP and the Milton Model do not work on girls who
have been drinking. In my experience it actually works better. So any of
you who are sitting at home on a Friday night looking at net porn, get into
the bars and clubs. Girls are there to meet guys, and your  skills will
work just fine on the ladies who have had a couple of drinks.


Mark B.:
On looks. I feel that looks do matter right at the beginning when you first
meet a woman. It does help when you meet her for the first time but you
still need other factors to succeed. One of my best friends goes to bars
and is a master PUA as he gets the hottest women. His key is not only his
decent looks but he smiles all the time. His most recent HB he picked up
told him
that "nobody ever smiles at bars and I like the fact that you smiled when
you came in and at me". In fact, I have seen some rather unsavory
characters pick up hot women just by virtue of having a smile on their
face. But, in essence when you feel at ease and confident a smile will
naturally come out on your face. But if not, then smile and fake it till
you make it, as someone
has said once here.  Since the beginning of the year I have had my share of
boning and success
but I still feel very frustrated with the larger than expected number of
failures I have had recently. Upon taking a closer look, I found that when
I like an HB too much I tend give up way too much control and power to her
all with the misguided hope of hoping she will like me more if I do what
she suggests. Complimenting and being sexual, evoking states, mind bending,
smiling and other crap works but if you allow her to run the show you are
dead meat.
I re-read David D'Angelo's Double Your Dating» e-book
( as well as Dennis Neder's book and
re-realized the importance of this area. Another great book is "How to
Succeed with Women - expanded edition" by Anthony Badalamenti of that talks about this area. This is an area that I
found is so rarely talked about here but I feel is so important and
critical that it warrants deep discussion. It seems that virtually in every
case when I allowed a woman to suggest where we go, what we do, where we
park, what we eat, what we drink, when or where I pick her up and on and on
I have never, ever gotten laid, ever. Conversely, when I took the lead in
terms of what we do, where we go and on and on, I succeed most of the time.
I know an HB10 stripper with whom I am just friends - she does not turn me
on as she is very aggressive. She was telling me how difficult it is for
her to find a guy that to which she can stay attracted. She said she starts
off being attracted to him but it quickly fades for her. When I asked her
why she said that virtually all guys tell her they love her and that they
would do anything for her and indeed do as such. She even made this
twisting motion with her hands to show me how she manipulates her current
boyfriend and how she is going to leave him despite his declarations of
love for her. Some women, though, will naturally allow you to take the lead
but others will test to what extent they can push you, and with these ones
if you show them that they can control you, you are finished. I feel that
most women have the natural inclination to test men and if you fail then
you will only fuck women who allow you natural control all the time. But
these women are rare and unfortunately I discovered that most women I boned
in my lifetime were ones that naturally gave me control and only boned a
few that posed to me some from of the control challenge and none that were
totally controlling.
It seems that in addition to making her feel wanted, being able to evoke
feelings in her through effective use of SS, disarming her friends like Mys
does being open, the missing link to all this is the need for control. So
the frame is - you're hot and I want you but I am not allowing you to run
over me and we do things my way. Women have told me that they like it when
a guy tells them what to do and "manhandles them". One girl I boned
recently said that "her pussy was bad and she was sorry for the bullshit
she was putting me through and that me fucking her hard and good was a way
of me putting her straight". I feel that women tend to test men to what extent
they can push them to see their real interest and their value in
themselves. When he fails this test, she looks at him in contempt and
withdraws her pussy. I wrote about this before but sometimes we tend to get
complacent and when the shit hits the fan only then do we re-realize what
works and what does not.  I feel when they do something out of the norm,
they want you to call them on their bullshit behaviour, they want you to
challenge them and their behaviour, not give into what they say and do and
assert yourself in light of what they want. It seems that they just do not
feel safe with a guy who allows the "wind of the world to sway his sails in
any direction". This tells her that if he is this way to her he must be the
same way to everyone else out there and allows everyone and everything to
trample on him and if she is with him on her as well through association -
in other words, AFC and a loser. But if he is able to stand up to the world
and to her she feels like he will protect her from harm and thus she feels
safe to give her pussy to him - PUA.
This one HB8.5 I went out with a few times last spring I allowed to take
control and really got nowhere. She gave me vague excuses how busy she was
when I wanted to see her again. Then I got pissed off at myself more than
at her and then challenged everything she said and wanted. She actually
began calling me and asking me out after my attitude change. A few days
ago, she called me to ask me out after I have not called her for 7 MONTHS
after I told her I will call her but never bothered. My miscue a few weeks
ago that I posted about was really probably a test of control than anything
else. Rather than altering my compliment strategy it seems it would have
been better to challenge her response to me. I tried this and it worked a
hell of a lot better than just complimenting her in a different way. So now
when I am in the car, I fucking decide where we park, where we fucking eat,
where we fucking sit, when I fucking pick her up, all fucking me. This way,
she knows I am the fucking man and does not feel like she ever fucking has
me. In some fucking strange way, I am glad that I ran into this fucking
level of difficulty recently as it only serves to re-open my fucking eyes
to what really works for me and I am fucking sure others as well. Mark my
word beyond a shadow a doubt that I will never, ever allow any woman any
sense of power or control over me - it's all me from now on, what I want
and my way or the highway. And if they don't like it, fuck them.......

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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