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"How can I turn those feelings into something really juicy?"

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How can I turn those feelings into something really juicy?
2/9/02 12:46:40 PM Eastern Standard Time



It's time to get a little refocused here.  I have noticed that these emails
have gotten a bit away from their intended purpose - to help you get
laid.  So I am going to do my best to edit the comments more.  When I edit,
I read what you wrote and ask myself "will this help anyone get laid or
not?" and if the answer is no, it's getting cut.
What this list is not is the following:
- it is not intended for anyone to use as their personal soapbox
- it is not intended for anyone to use in any way to undermine someone
else's efforts
- it is not intended to be as lengthy as it has been lately (the reason for
the new format was to send out shorter emails.  Instead I am getting more
comments in and they are having to be sent out more frequently - I would
rather send one real gem out once a week than a daily compendium of verbal
- it is not intended to be politically correct

What this list is:
- It IS intended for you to help out your fellow man to be more successful
with women
- It IS intended to help guys who need help find the best resources for that
- It IS intended to build friendships among guys with a common goal (more
- It IS intended to help us overcome difficulties and areas where we get stuck
- It IS intended for the masters of the game (judged only by their actual
success and ability to express how they do things) to share their thoughts
and ideas on other strategies and tactics
- It IS intended to focus on what really works in the real world and not on
theories or bullshit that you read elsewhere (such as on relationship sites
and the like)

Now that is not to say that I won't be running some stuff that is off topic
because if I think it is interesting and of some value (eg. stuff on some
sex techniques, etc.) because the buck stops here and the ultimate deciding
factor if whether something gets posted or not is my opinion of it.

As such, I would like to apologize for having let things slide in the last
few months.  I have been going through a very demanding period at work for
the last two years and since I do these emails inbetween work and during
working hours, I have not been as diligent as I have been in the past.  I
hope you will notice the difference.



Clifford:  The big mouth theory
(I have wanted to write this up for the past 4 emails, go give you an idea
of how much other material has come in and how limited my time has been).

It has occurred to me recently that women respond to big mouths.  This is
an observation that I have been making for years and it's not quite fully
developed but I feel there's value in putting it out there for your
comments and ideas.

I've noticed guys like Alfie.  Alfie is a guy who today is probably in his
fifties, probably weighs now close to 300 lbs. (he was always heavy with a
huge belly that was exceptionally noticeable at the health club we both
used to frequent years ago, but he's even heavier today), and owns a strip
club.  He is loud and very visible - he is always expressing his opinion
and if he's in the room, you'll know it.  I don't know him really other
than I have seen him around for years, often with very attractive (usually
wild looking) women.

Now, I could mention several other similar examples of this, but the point
is that I have noticed a number of guys over the years who seemed to have
little more going for them than the fact that they were loud and had motor
mouths.  Not every guy who opens his mouth is going to be successful with
women like Alfie, but I do think that there's a link between this sort of
taking the lead behaviour and women's unconscious search for strong males
(aka a search for their fathers).  I have had the experience myself where I
have gone through periods where I was more verbose than I usually am (in
particular one period where I was a bit obnoxious and overbearing in my
behaviour) and I noticed how it seemed to turn on the women I was dating at
the time.

I think most of us likely agree that we don't want to be the "jerk women
love" but rather we want to extract the behaviours they are drawn to and
still be ourselves.  I think that within these clues are the essence of
what it takes to turn women on and bypass their expressed wholesome,
relationship oriented, conscious behaviour.  Turn the key of their primal
instincts and they'll throw all that out the window and desire you
immediately.  A big clue to this is the more profound understanding of what
being honest really means, which has been a big topic on this list
lately.  Women are always telling us they look for honesty.

I tell them that what women think they want is not necessarily what will
truly, deeply fulfill them (where have you heard that before?).  I tell
them that women and men are different.  Women think men are basically pigs,
that we'll fuck anything that we can (some guys look for one thing in a
women -- pulse!), that we've had lots of wild experiences, etc.  They think
we are sleeping with lots of women (why shouldn't they think that? If they
think you're a cool enough guy for them to consider sleeping with, they
assume that other women will also think that and they think you, as an
attractive guy, probably have as easy a time to get women as they, as
attractive women, do to get men), and they expect that.  While some of us
might be turned off in meeting a woman who's sleeping around, women have
the opposite reaction - they recognize you as a desirable commodity when
you are able to be successful with women.  We see this in so many ways
(social proof, showing up with another woman always gets them looking at
you or makes them jealous and you more desirable, etc.) but we don't take
proper advantage of this.  Women all want the guy who's got all the women,
the bad boy is what turns them on.  So the reality is that monogamy is not
really that important to them - the fact that you have lots of women
attracted them in the first place (and they expected you to be sleeping
with a lot of women so why should you have to change that?).  What  is
really important to them is how you treat them - which you do (to borrow
one of David's keys) with honesty, trust, and respect.  This means that you
don't lie to them (but you tell them that that doesn't mean you are going
to answer everything they ask you, either) and you treat them with trust
and respect when you talk and see them.  But you are the man, you are in
control and she's not there to limit your life but to expand and enhance
it.  If she succeeds in changing you into a pussy whipped jellyfish needing
her approval, then you'll become something that she is not attracted
to.  The things that attracted her to you in the first place should be used
to keep her attracted to you - the idea is not to let her change you into a
wimp so she can get bored and go find another challenge.  Women need drama
and challenge; women aren't happy unless to some extent they are
unhappy.  The guy they can figure out bores them - I said it before, but
I'll repeat myself, one of the best ways to remain a mystery to them is to
not let them put your time together (eg. they ask "Where were you last
night?" and you change the subject).  Let them wonder about you - there's
no reason for you to let them know everything about you.  You may think
that opening up and telling her everything is going to make the two of you
closer, but I can tell you from experience that the more you tell her, and
the more she has you figured out (you just don't want to her to figure you
out completely - you do want her to know certain things like the fact that
you are basically a great guy), the sooner she's going to get bored of you.

I guess I got a little off the topic of the big mouth theory here, but the
thing is that guys with big mouths attract women.  Guys who just talk with
the appearance that they know what they are talking about (whether they do
or not is besides the point) exude a leadership quality that many women are
fascinated by.

Your comments on the above would be greatly appreciated.


> Mystery: It's one thing to say, "I don't do clubs cause it's not part of
my lifestyle" (that's completely understandable) but it's another to say,
"Why go to clubs and get fast paced experience under your belt when you can
pick on the shy weak girls sitting alone drinking their little hot chocolates".

HitmanPT: For me, the clubs are the place that I really test myself; they
are always full of guys wanting to get laid. Any guy that goes to a club
thinks: "Well...maybe tonight I can
get some", spare me the having fun crap, they all want the same thing:
pussy! So I know I
face competition. Most of these guys are just AFC's that don't have the
guts to approach
any girl, so the only thing they do is a very little eye contact and when
they do approach it's
just plain ridiculous (I usually take advantage of the crash and burn of
other guys, which I learn this from These guys may
have luck and fuck a girl that likes their
looks and is a little drunk, but that is only maybe once a year. Then,
there are the other guys, the ones that the only reason that they go to
clubs is to fuck some girl (I'm not saying this is wrong). These don't have
any fear of approaching, they seem like confident guys but most of the time
they are just losers who are very desperate to get some.  Anyway, they get
laid more often than the AFC's. Then there are the real PUAs, who don't
need to fake confidence, who just approach naturally, and either go to
clubs alone or with friends. I think I now fit this category.  So, usually
at clubs any person (guys, girls) who goes there just wants to
"socialize", get to know people.  On the other hand, there are the
bookstores, mall, there, there are only people who just
want to satisfy some need (eg. in the bookstore buying a book, in the
restaurant having lunch, etc).  There is no real competition
by going into a bookstore, a girl is not hoping to meet anyone, so it's
just more easy to get to know a girl.  Just an example: If there's a girl
in a bookstore reading a book that you've
already read, you could express to her your opinion, then ask her out to a
coffee or get the # to
continue chating some other place. These situations are not very common in
a women's life
(I'm not talking about approaching with stupid pickup lines, or just
saying: "Hey, I wanna get to know you!  Give me your number" I'm sure they
get a lot of this).  In the situation above, you said something interesting
to her, gave your opinion about something, I don't see many guys
doing this to complete strangers.
> Mystery: I like challenging myself now.

HitmanPT: I thought that this was really what it's all about. By trying to
get prettier girls you're automatically challenging yourself. Mys, I don't
know how can you challenge yourself even more. : )
> Mystery: If we wait for the girls to approach US, we don't get OUR
CHOICE of the room. If we wait for the ones to stray from their group, we
don't  get OUR CHOICE.

HitmanPT: I've never waited for the girls to approach me, I follow (almost)
religiously the
3sec rule! At first it got me into some trouble, as I didn't see the hidden
Now, especially in clubs, I wait a couple more seconds to see if the girl
is with the bf.
>Toecutter: I argue that ALL GUYS are capable of being good looking.

HitmanPT:  Tell this to the ones in : )  Just kidding. I do
see your point, and I agree. I used to be a little sloppy, but at a
particular moment of my life, I decided to change. I was thin so I joined a
gym just to pump it up!  To stay in shape I do kickboxing (which really
boosted my confidence) and weightlifting. I can now say that I have a good
body, and feel good about myself! Changed my hairstyle, bought new clothes,
etc. Every little thing that I didn't like about myself, I've changed!  I
think all guys can be reasonably good looking just takes a
little hard work and dedication (and, in some extreme cases...a miracle).
> Mark B.:  It seems that virtually in every case when I allowed a woman
to suggest where we go, what we do, where we park, what we eat, what we
drink, when or where I pick her up and on and on I have never, ever gotten
laid, ever. Conversely, when I took the lead in terms of what we do, where
we go and on and on, I succeed most of the time.

HitmanPT: It's a little obvious why this happens: since we were little, we
are taught to be gentle with women, pay for dates, buy them flowers, etc.,
in short, satisfy her every wish and give in control!  The movies, the
music, all media push this kind of mentality to us.  So...what we are
really doing is "spoiling" the women with all this attention, and they
eventually get sick of it, and search for someone who can be a challenge,
that doesn't listen to her every wish (that's when we come in).  If you let
her control these apparently unimportant items (like what to eat,
drink, where to go dinner), you're doing what any other guy does: you are
giving her total control over you and satisfying her every wishes (in other
words, you're being an AFC). You must be "selfish" (for lack of a better
term), you must think about yourself! Do what you want to do, when you want
to do it.  This is a true PUA!


Hi! I'd like to know what the interest could be for a presentation in
London of Dynamic Hypnosis and Analogical Psychology as applied to self
improvement, therapy and seduction/persuasion. The school is from Italy.
Please let me know what you think. my site, very much under construction  the school's site, less so

Clifford:  If you visit the psynet site, there is some intriguing talk
about learning persuasion to be successful with women and I hope we will
get some more information.


Does anyone here deal with, or have ways to deal with sexual inhibition and
frigidity? I know many, many conservative girls, and before you flood me
with reasons why these girls aren't worth it, consider it as another
challenge and another weapon and skill in your arsenal....
Anyway, I know some sexual attraction patterns, etc. but what are the ways
by which to bring up specific fantasies (bear in mind that this cannot be
done overtly, as in a Grand Master PUA)without getting them embarrassed or
uncomfortable?  The reason I ask is, a lot of women are mentally immature
and giggle at the sexual side of things, mainly because they attach so much
importance to it and it is such a deep part of them, that it often goes


>Can you get a job if you graduated from Podunk State? Can you get laid if
you are an average looking guy? Of course, but you may have to work harder.
Can a high school dropout get a job with top consulting firm and can a fat,
ugly, poorly dressed guy get laid by a mega babe? I think it's still
possible, but is going to take A LOT of work.

JM: This reminds me of the story (I think it was on this list) of the fat,
ugly, poorly dressed guy who constantly had a beautiful woman (or more) on
his arm. I don't recall much of the specifics, but the moral was that he
was just so funny and confident that the other stuff didn't matter. I mean,
I'm sure he had at least moderately good hygiene, but other than that,
there was nothing PHYSICALLY or VISUALLY appealing about him. So
obviously... the difference that made the difference was that he was able
to completely forget about 'common sense' about looks, health and neatness;
instead he focused on how he could help the women he was interested in feel
really good. Instead of asking himself, "How will an HB ever want to fuck a
slob like me?", he rejected those sorts of questions from his mind and
asked something like, "How can I make this hottie laugh? How can I show her
how to feel more comfortable and relaxed? And now that I can see she's
ready for it, how can I turn those feelings into something really juicy?"
I mean, how could this be any easier? But I dunno, I wasn't there, so you
probably shouldn't believe any of this anyway unless you want to have more
choice about getting laid.


Matthew A.:
> Toecutter: Psychic seduction IMO is a load of rubbish and is an
unreliable system for seducing women (unless you want to go to James Randi
and collect your million dollars).

Matthew A.: It is if that is all you are using. However, non-verbal rapport
can be very effective, along with the power of your imagination, in helping
to attract attention, assisting in filtering out the kind of girl you are
looking for, and giving you an edge with state control and flexibility. It
is NOT a magic bullet». It is an effective addition to your toolbox, if you
learn how to use it properly.


> Darren: Yes, I think there is certainly a place for listening to women
and actually talking to them, but in order to get there in a club or bar
setting, you often need to get past her friends, who may get jealous of
their friend, or who may simply not like you. Befriend the obstacles, and
isolate the target, and it's smooth sailing from there. At this point, you
can run a few routines, do SS patterning (which includes asking questions
and gathering information), and so on.

Joseph: All this group theory stuff is really arbitrary. In clubs or bars,
you can approach the target and do handwriting analysis. Her girlfriends
will beg you to do their's as well. Do her friends and you are
fractionating as well as inspiring competition. Also, some non-verbal
rapport from Essential Skills ( will help out with
groups. I think all this "performance" that Mystery uses for groups is
totally unnecessary. Just get a $15 Grapho Deck from
and buy the $35 magical rapport CD from Essential Skills and you won't need
it at all. I don't.

Clifford: I think Mystery is charting new and interesting ground with his
group approaches.  I think there's many ways to skin a cat/pussy and this
list is aimed at finding as many ways as possible. The only thing that
occurs to me, though, is that there is an element of deception involved
because you approach the group with the hidden goal of getting to the
target - that's not exactly honest, is it?  But you aren't doing anything
wrong and you are making friends.  It may not be your cup of tea, but I am
very interested to read about it.
> Mystery: You are assuming you have already isolated the target though.
When, though, do you ever see a woman of great beauty sitting alone?

Joseph: day!!! They walk their dogs. They sit out on the
steps before class and read books. They go shopping alone. They have lunch
alone. They stop for ice cream alone. They go to the grocery store alone.
They walk to and from class at colleges alone. They go to the library to
study alone. They go jogging. They go to the gym. They work at outlet
stores or as waitresses and bartenders. At stop lights, they are alone in
their cars with the windows down. They wait in reception rooms alone. They
lay out alone at the beach. They go to suntanning spas alone.  The only
place I can think of that they are usually not alone in is in clubs and
bars. But if you go to other places to meet chicks besides clubs and bars,
you will find them.


Eclypz with a "c":
First of all, Mystery, my man. I've never met you before, and I haven't
ever seen a picture of you but I'm going to go out on a limb with this one.
You're white, am I right? lol (I can ask that because, hey, I'm white).
With all this talk of 8.8's and UG's and 2set or 3set, neg hits, isolating
targets, etc. I'm wondering if we're talking about women or if this is a
discussion forum for the latest Mech Warrior, lol.  Listen, I know that you
have decided to make it your business to teach guys how to do "MM", and I
have nothing but love for someone following their dream to success, but the
question just begs to be asked: to what end?  To what end are your students
looking to arrive? AND PLEASE, don't think I'm bashing you, and certainly
it's unfortunate that it might seem like I'm cornering just you, it's
simply that your system has been brought up alot lately.
Let me ask something. These terms, the lingo, I look at it and can't help
but wonder in what way is it useful? On the one hand, I can see that it
makes a quicker go of describing something or someone, like someone can
understand what I mean by an HB8.2 (or can they? You see to me, a hard body
is a girl who is muscular and toned yet still feminine, like a gymnast, but
I think I'm the only one who sees that distinction). But, in another way, I
could see how all these buzzwords might serve to distance you from the
possible setbacks in your mission. For instance, it seems to me it might be
easier to go home at the end of the night and say,"Well I isolated an 8.8
from the 3set, neutralized her UG, avoided the cockblock, and neg'd her a
few times, only to find out she was a TS (a new one that doesn't come up
often, about meeting an HB and HAVING HER COCKBLOCK
YOU!!!). I could see how it would be kinda helpful, being able to distance
one's self from the possible emotional repercussions involved in such an
endeavour. For instance, I know in the military that they use all sorts of
euphemisms and code words to avoid the blunt reality of the casualties of
war. I'm just asking here, seriously.
Another thing. You mentioned to Mark B. something about missing an
opportunity to hit it off with an HB in a bar that's being defensive, and
how if you wait to talk to a girl when she is alone you might miss out on
an opportunity for a "close" (does that mean it's over or does it just seal
the deal?). I've also heard the word "game" used quite often. I can
identify with that, because life is a series of games in a sense, and to
take it too seriously is to shoot yourself in the foot. But I remember a
time when I was of the same mentality. Hell, every now and then I, too, get
the feeling that if I don't take a chance, then I will see an opportunity
missed, but I've calmed down alot lately, and it has seemed to help. After
all, one thing is for sure, there is always another opportunity around the
corner. If you're trying to get over your fears of approaching, and take a
"go get 'em" stance, then that is great. But once you have that IMO too
much running around feeling that these women are all opportunities that are
passing you by, you'll get kinda nutty, trust me. I'm saying this to
everyone else, because I have a feeling you know where I'm coming from,
Mystery.  It's just that I don't think others grasp it.
So, anyway, this game you speak of, when is it over, and how do you know
you have won? Seriously, is this more like the perpetual tic-tac-toe thing
from "WarGames", where it's an infinite loop of moves and blocks that lead
to more moves and blocks, or is there an end in itself somewhere?
One last thing to Mark B. I noticed from your last response to the group
(the one with all the "fucking" in it), that you seem to be tired of
letting women run the show so to speak, and you've had enough. After having
read that post, I realized you have been pretty frustrated lately. Take a
deep breath man, and relax. Do whatever it takes to have more control in
your life, especially control over your own perceptions and reactions to
those perceptions. I get the feeling you were very angry in that last
email, and you're tired of the results you've been getting lately.
Sometimes it takes a "fed up" feeling to really get the ball moving in a
new direction. But don't let it become more than it is. You're allowed and
expected to make bad choices, and learn from them. Now, don't go making a
bad choice by thinking that you have to go flying off the deep end of the
control thing. Friedrich Nietzsche once said (and I'm paraphrasing) 'People
often make the mistake of living in one extreme, and then attempt to
correct it by going to the other extreme.' It's like they bounce from one
end to the other never finding the contentment in the middle. It's like a
game of perpetual tic-tac-toe, where no one really wins.


(Commenting on parties vs bars) At a friend' house, you don't need to be
nearly as aggressive for two reasons: You are already accepted because you
are a friend. She is less likely to leave. Because of this, coming on too
strong can be a detriment. I've pulled lots of chicks at parties and almost
invariably it's been easier. I just use my bar routines toned down and do
more large scale takeaways. At a bar, it's a low percentage to close if you
don't close during your initial conversation (however long that is). At a
party, you often want to leave without closing and then return.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



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Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

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Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

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The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

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A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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