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You’re not a dirty swine if you like it, or talk about it
2/11/02 6:47:56 PM Eastern Standard Time


Please note that David, who you have been reading a lot about here, is
available for in person and/or telephone consultations.  He's had some
spectacular results, and you will be reading much more about this soon.
Please contact me for pricing and other details.


> Cliff:  Someone recently asked what IOI's mean (it means "Indications of
Interest") and I realized that anyone reading this for the first time must
be pretty confused by these abbreviations and terms. I haven't the time to
do this at the moment, and if anyone could get it started, that would be
greatly appreciated.

Formhandle:  There's been a full up-to-date acronym list on FS101 for a
couple years:
If anyone notices a missing acronym or commonly-used phrase, let me know
(for***e@fa***.com[ ? ])...

Clifford:  Thanks to Kengue there's an extensive glossary now posted on my
site for this list (


> Clifford: The big mouth theory (I have wanted to write this up for the
past 4 emails, go give you an idea of how much other material has come in
and how limited my time has been). It has occurred to me recently that
women respond to big mouths.

Mystery:  This I highly endorse! I have been telling students that the #1
STATE to be in is TALKATIVE. So calling it BIG MOUTH THEORY is PERFECT. May
I kindly use that term in MM? Actually it will be BIG MOUTH PRINCIPLE.

Clifford: Be my guest!  I would like to make it clear to those who read
otherwise, this is not the only method nor, in my opinion, is it
necessarily the best state of all possible states (I prefer a more strong,
silent James Bond thing, personally).
> Clifford: Now, I could mention several other similar examples of this,
but the point is that I have noticed a number of guys over the years who
seemed to have little more going for them than the fact that they were loud
and had motor mouths. Not every guy who opens his mouth is going to be
successful with women like Alfie, but I do think that there's a link
between this sort of taking the lead behaviour and women's unconscious
search for strong males (aka a search for their fathers).

Mystery:  I have learned a LOT from comedian George Carlin. He is
brilliant. He talks about THOUGHTFUL things and also about FARTS. He builds
and builds and then breaks with a sip of water and begins again (I think
that's fractionation). Study his stuff. See his expression and his lack of
care for how he looks when making facial expressions.
> Clifford:I have had the experience myself where I have gone through
periods where I was more verbose than I usually am (in particular one
period where I was a bit obnoxious and overbearing in my behaviour) and I
noticed how it seemed to turn on the women I was dating at the time.

Mystery:  80% BIG MOUTH with a 20% REDEEMING QUALITY to show them you have
> Clifford: I think most of us likely agree that we don't want to be the
"jerk women love" but rather we want to extract the behaviours they are
drawn to and still be ourselves. I think that within these clues are the
essence of what it takes to turn women on and bypass their expressed
wholesome, relationship oriented, conscious behaviour. Turn the key of
their primal instincts and they'll throw all that out the window and desire
you immediately. A big clue to this is the more profound understanding of
what being honest really means, which has been a big topic on this list
lately. Women are always telling us they look for honesty. I tell them that
what women think they want is not necessarily what will truly, deeply
fulfill them (where have you heard that before?). I tell them that women
and men are different. Women think men are basically pigs, that we'll fuck
anything that we can (some guys look for one thing in a women -- pulse!),
that we've had lots of wild experiences, etc. They think we are sleeping
with lots of women (why shouldn't they think that? If they think you're a
cool enough guy for them to consider sleeping with, they assume that other
women will also think that and they think you, as an attractive guy,
probably have as easy a time to get women as they, as attractive women, do
to get men), and they expect that. While some of us might be turned off in
meeting a woman who's sleeping around, women have the opposite reaction -
they recognize you as a desirable commodity when you are able to be
successful with women. We see this in so many ways (social proof, showing
up with another woman always gets them looking at you or makes them jealous
and you more desirable, etc.) but we don't take proper advantage of this.
Women all want the guy who's got all the women, the bad boy is what turns
them on. So the reality is that monogamy is not really that important to
them - the fact that you have lots of women attracted them in the first
place (and they expected you to be sleeping with a lot of women so why
should you have to change that?).

Mystery:  Yesterday I went to the phone in a club and when I returned, I
said, "Wow THAT was flattering. While I was on the phone, two women said,
'You are a beautiful man.' Cool." Beside the fact that it was true (hehee),
I will do that again. Also, No9 was with me and it was cool to see how
women perceived him. OK, it's a 4set (I met 2 of them before). Those two
were with me while No9 maneuvered to talk with the other 2 (our strategic
plan worked smoothly). So he started to engage them and they were paying
attention and I said to my girls, "Tell your friends to watch out, he's a
lady killer." One of them said, "I can tell." What was funny is that all he
was doing was ENGAGING THEM. That was enough to appear to be one when I
SUGGESTED he was one.
> Clifford: What is really important to them is how you treat them - which
you do (to borrow one of David's keys) with honesty, trust, and respect.
This means that you don't lie to them (but you tell them that that doesn't
mean you are going to answer everything they ask you, either) and you treat
them with trust and respect when you talk and see them. But you are the
man, you are in control and she's not there to limit your life but to
expand and enhance it. If she succeeds in changing you into a pussy whipped
jellyfish needing her approval, then you'll become something that she is
not attracted to. The things that attracted her to you in the first place
should be used to keep her attracted to you - the idea is not to let her
change you into a wimp so she can get bored and go find another challenge.
Women need drama and challenge; women aren't happy unless to some extent
they are unhappy. The guy they can figure out bores them - I said it
before, but I'll repeat myself, one of the best ways to remain a mystery to
them is to not let them put your time together (eg. they ask "Where were
you last night?" and you change the subject). Let them wonder about you -
there's no reason for you to let them know everything about you. You may
think that opening up and telling her everything is going to make the two
of you closer, but I can tell you from experience that the more you tell
her, and the more she has you figured out (you just don't want to her to
figure you out completely - you do want her to know certain things like the
fact that you are basically a great guy), the sooner she's going to get
bored of you.
I guess I got a little off the topic of the big mouth theory here, but the
thing is that guys with big mouths attract women. Guys who just talk with
the appearance that they know what they are talking about (whether they do
or not is besides the point) exude a leadership quality that many women are
fascinated by.Your comments on the above would be greatly appreciated.

Mystery:  It's a pretty direct concept. It's something that must exist in
all your approaches. Be TALKATIVE and you can convey more, allowing her to
decide that you are of value. Then you'll start seeing the IOIs left right
and center. BTW, No9 soon isolated his 2set because of me. You know how you
sometimes can't isolate in a 2set, right? Why? Cause the friend would be
lonely. But the thing was, this wasn't a REAL 2set, it was a split 4set. So
I asked one of my girls to go talk to her friend. This allowed isolation
for No9 and his girl and soon he was lying with her and holding hands and
cuddling. He could have done it but he was busy on other things so I winged
him. What are friends for!
> Mystery: It's one thing to say, "I don't do clubs cause it's not part of
my lifestyle" (that's completely understandable) but it's another to say,
"Why go to clubs and get fast paced experience under your belt when you can
pick on the shy weak girls sitting alone drinking their little hot chocolates".
> HitmanPT: For me, the clubs are the place that I really test myself;
they are always full of guys wanting to get laid. Any guy that goes to a
club thinks: "Well...maybe tonight I can get some", spare me the having fun
crap, they all want the same thing: pussy! So I know I face competition.
Most of these guys are just AFC's that don't have the guts to approach any
girl, so the only thing they do is a very little eye contact and when they
do approach it's just plain ridiculous (I usually take advantage of the
crash and burn of other guys, which I learn this from
These guys may have luck and fuck a girl that likes their looks and is a
little drunk, but that is only maybe once a year. Then, there are the other
guys, the ones that the only reason that they go to clubs is to fuck some
girl (I'm not saying this is wrong). These don't have any fear of
approaching, they seem like confident guys but most of the time they are
just losers who are very desperate to get some. Anyway, they get laid more
often than the AFC's. Then there are the real PUAs, who don't need to fake
confidence, who just approach naturally, and either go to clubs alone or
with friends. I think I now fit this category.

Mystery:  I think there's no real competition. GUYS are just REALLY UGLY
GIRLS to me. They must be BEFRIENDED in a group just like the UGs.
> HitmanPT: So, usually at clubs any person (guys, girls) who goes there
just wants to "socialize", get to know people. On the other hand, there are
the bookstores, mall, there, there are only people who
just want to satisfy some need (eg. in the bookstore buying a book, in the
restaurant having lunch, etc). There is no real competition by going into a
bookstore, a girl is not hoping to meet anyone, so it's just more easy to
get to know a girl. Just an example: If there's a girl in a bookstore
reading a book that you've already read, you could express to her your
opinion, then ask her out to a coffee or get the # to continue chating some
other place. These situations are not very common in a women's life (I'm
not talking about approaching with stupid pickup lines, or just saying:
"Hey, I wanna get to know you! Give me your number" I'm sure they get a lot
of this). In the situation above, you said something interesting to her,
gave your opinion about something, I don't see many guys doing this to
complete strangers.

Mystery:  Exactly. Cafe's are like shooting fish in a barrel. It's so easy,
but you can only have so many fish in the barrel and THAT is the major
limitation. MM doesn't exploit one SPECIFIC NICHE on Earth. It's more ...
holistic. Get good in CLUBS and then have a skill set that can go ANYWHERE.
> Mystery: I like challenging myself now.
>HitmanPT: I thought that this was really what it's all about. By trying
to get prettier girls you're automatically challenging yourself. Mys, I
don't know how can you challenge yourself even more. : )

Mystery:  3somes! : P Hardcore Catholics : )
> Mystery: If we wait for the girls to approach US, we don't get OUR
CHOICE of the room. If we wait for the ones to stray from their group, we
don't get OUR CHOICE.
> HitmanPT: I've never waited for the girls to approach me, I follow
(almost) religiously the 3sec rule! At first it got me into some trouble,
as I didn't see the hidden boyfriends...oops...  Now, especially in clubs,
I wait a couple more seconds to see if the girl is with the bf.

Mystery:  I approach the MEN in a group FIRST. this solves things.
> HitmanPT:  If you let her control these apparently unimportant items
(like what to eat, drink, where to go dinner), you're doing what any other
guy does: you are giving her total control over you and satisfying her
every wishes (in other words, you're being an AFC). You must be "selfish"
(for lack of a better term), you must think about yourself! Do what you
want to do, when you want to do it. This is a true PUA!

Mystery: "The only time you will be called selfish is when someone WANTS
something from you."
> Toecutter: Psychic seduction IMO is a load of rubbish and is an
unreliable system for seducing women (unless you want to go to James Randi
and collect your million dollars).

Mystery: As an illusionist and professional mentalist, I agree with your
view. There's no CREDIBLE evidence to support Psychic Powers ... and
therefore Psychic Seduction (if it does, You'll get $1 million from Randi)
and is in fact, IMO, slimy to market. It's the "EASY WAY OUT" sell. Why
work on a skill when you can use PSYCHIC POWERS to get women to want
YOU?  I WISH this could be so!!!! Don't buy into this idea and be frauded
out of your money.  You've been warned. It's one thing to be ENTERTAINED by
a Psychic, but another to learn psychic powers to apply to a REAL
APPLICATION. It's like some martial arts guy teaching PSYCHIC FIGHTING. Who
will have a better defense? Watch The Learning Channel. Check out before you go to ripoff artists.
> Joseph: All this group theory stuff is really arbitrary. In clubs or
bars, you can approach the target and do handwriting analysis.

Mystery: With regard to graphology, you can't do it on the target til you
befriend the group. IF you mean befriending the group WITH graphology, then
yes. BUT that is still a part of group theory.
> Joseph: Her girlfriends will beg you to do their's as well.

Mystery: Yeah, but the routines one uses in the group are different than
those you use in isolation with the ONE.
> Joseph: Do her friends and you are fractionating as well as inspiring
competition. Also, some non-verbal rapport from Essential Skills
( will help out with groups. I think all this
"performance" that Mystery uses for groups is totally unnecessary. Just get
a $15 Grapho Deck from and buy the $35 magical
rapport CD from Essential Skills and you won't need it at all. I don't.

Mystery: Is it possible that what you think is good, isn't? That MAYBE
there is a person out there that would TOTALLY IMPRESS YOU? That he uses
something TRULY ADVANCED? I suppose you don't think so, hence your
minimizing GROUP THEORY. The concept of using, say, graphology to befriend
the group is great. There ARE however, further distinctions in group theory
like using previous groups to parlay yourself into new groups (merging and
social proof tactics). There's also how you neg the target so you can then
isolate with permission and immediately get IOIs from her. I encourage you
to watch me work a room - email me with the city you are in and we can hook
up for fun. I'm not all talk.
> Clifford: I think Mystery is charting new and interesting ground with
his group approaches.

Mystery:  Exactly. This is some REALLY ADVANCED stuff. I ENCOURAGE the use
of handwriting analysis as a sex magic tool. It's great for group disarming
AND for rapport building when 1:1. but if you are armed only with THIS, you
will fall into one of a slew of potholes in group situations. Again, these
group theory ideas would likely be PERFECT for Joseph at his level of game.
He has the material but is likely not working the situations as competently
as could be done. I'm willing to DEMONSTRATE this live.
> Clifford: I think there's many ways to skin a cat/pussy and this list is
aimed at finding as many ways as possible.

Mystery:  Hmmm, is it? I always thought it was about finding WHAT WORKS the
BEST. It's QUALITY over QUANTITY. I don't need 50 tools that do similar
things. I need 1 or 2 that work GREAT. Then I can clear my head and ENJOY
the situations, working on other sticking points. No9 and I talked about
FRACTIONATING and his game would improve (not that he isn't good already)
if he internalized the concept. I, TOO, must focus MORE on this in my game.
I need to SEE things to understand their application. Don't we ALL?
> Clifford: The only thing that occurs to me, though, is that there is an
element of deception involved because you approach the group with the
hidden goal of getting to the target - that's not exactly honest, is it?

Mystery:  Well, in REAL life, I'm not a PUA. This PUA persona is only
perceived HERE online. In real life, I'm a real human being - in fact, I'm
a good laugh. I enjoy women but I'm not in any HURRY to land the girl I
like. Is it dishonest to WANT a girl INSTANTLY (which happens for men) and
HIDE that fact til you have conveyed your great personality and allowed the
girl you want to CHOOSE YOU and show IOIs? That's just NATURE. I don't
CHEAT people. I see a girl I'd like to meet. Until I talk with her, I'm not
sure if I want her. But if I approach her directly, I can't get past her
alienated friends. So I look at the situation and think, "if she DID become
my GF, I would have to be friends with her friends, too." So I meet THEM. I
enjoy people. I love being the center of attention. No SPEED needed in my
seduction. 1 to 5 nights to the F close, isn't that FAST enough? PUSH
things TOO fast and you build skepticism. I don't need to ONS girls. That's
not ME. I don't TRICK girls with hypnosis. I become a FRIEND of the PEER
GROUP (again, not a TRICK, it's legitimate) and that way when she says to
others how we met she says, "we met through friends." : ) I make friends
and treat everyone fairly, especially the guys. "Own the men and you own
the women." Getting the hottie in the corner is not a hidden GOAL so much
as a possible option should I decide she is as great as she LOOKS. In the
meantime, I make friends and socialize and get this: If I decide she isn't
for me or she doesn't show IOIs then I still made some friends, gave my
website to people (and NETWORKED, of course - people see my shit and want
to hire me for their company events), had some fun social interaction in my
night and gotten that much more confident for the next group I approach. To
top it all off, the next group that saw my being the center of attention
and making people laugh and feel good, WANT to meet me. OFTEN, I get drinks
bought for me and people request that I come sit with them. And, yes, all
my students have seen this, ask them (testimonials available - email me at
mag***c@er***.com[ ? ]). You ever see that there are SOME rare guys that
are actually REALLY GREAT PEOPLE? THAT is me. I'm not a PUA trying to LOOK
like a great guy. I am a GREAT GUY that got great by trial and error. Cause
I was SUCH a loser growing up. Now that I'm good at BEING GREAT : ) I
backwards engineer the HOW so I can tell others. "What one man can do,
another can do." And then I let a few lucky guys SEE these concepts in
ACTION. Of course, when I do an approach, I'm not THINKING about my
PROCESS. I let the PROCESS evaporate from my mind so that I can just BE and
let my response to situations become DYNAMIC (just like in a martial arts
fight). The framework I write about is the REOCCURRING pattern that I
discovered exists in every group approach. It's not PRECISE, but that's why
this is an art and not a science.
> Clifford: But you aren't doing anything wrong and you are making
friends. It may not be your cup of tea, but I am very interested to read
about it.

Mystery: Ask ANY PERSON that meets me who doesn't know me as this PUA
thinks of me as a cool guy, not a letch. I'm not sliming my way into bed
with girls. I don't make anyone feel uncomfortable. I don't HIT on any girl
that isn't showing real interest in me. AND, I get far more #s than I call.
Hot girls collect #s all the time. I do that, too. I'm not a player. I only
call those who are of particular interest. If a girl is to be with ME ...
she will be the CREAM OF THE CROP and I think they appreciate that.
> Mystery: You are assuming you have already isolated the target though.
When, though, do you ever see a woman of great beauty sitting alone?
> Joseph: day!!! They walk their dogs. They sit out on
the steps before class and read books. They go shopping alone. They have
lunch alone. They stop for ice cream alone. They go to the grocery store alone.

Mystery: What city are you in? Are we mincing words with regards to what we
call HOT? Have you seen some of my GF pix?
> Joseph:  The only place I can think of that they are usually not alone
in is in clubs and bars. But if you go to other places to meet chicks
besides clubs and bars, you will find them.

Mystery:  Have I mentioned to you that I DO approach outside clubs? And
that with the experience I have gained IN clubs, I can approach all these
like they were NOTHING? These outside approaches are called BONUS ROUNDS. A
4 set in a cafe is a turkey shoot. I mean from meet to close (or to finding
out if she is legitimately taken) is a very short time. The PROBLEM is that
these situations you speak of are rare. Why? Because I'm chasing 10's,
dude. Not the 'cute' little girl who walks her dog. The 10's. If I approach
an 8.5 in a club, it's only PRACTICE cause I'm bored waiting for the 10 to
arrive. I ALWAYS approach the best girl of the club - ask those who met me
live. If there is a 10 on the street, I'm there too. BUT! in a club, the
hottest girls are usually HIRED and THOSE are the ones I go for. Clubs
house hotter girls cause the FIND was done by management. I go where the
hotties are. I don't drive around looking for the dog walkers. If they are
there, great! But dude, this is so rare.
> Eclypz with a "c": First of all, Mystery, my man. I've never met you
before, and I haven't ever seen a picture of you but I'm going to go out on
a limb with this one. You're white, am I right? lol (I can ask that
because, hey, I'm white).

Mystery:  Haaa yep. Visit for a pic.
> Eclypz with a "c": Let me ask something. These terms, the lingo, I look
at it and can't help but wonder in what way is it useful?

Mystery:  Name an idea and it becomes a tool. IOI is shorter to type than
INDICATOR OF INTEREST. There are many of them and if I name the concept
IOI, I can use the idea as a mental tool to help me create cognitive models
that have predictive value. Fair?
> Eclypz with a "c": But, in another way, I could see how all these
buzzwords might serve to distance you from the possible setbacks in your
mission. For instance, it seems to me it might be easier to go home at the
end of the night and say,"Well I isolated an 8.8 from the 3set, neutralized
her UG, avoided the cockblock, and neg'd her a few times, only to find out
she was a TS (a new one that doesn't come up often,
about meeting an HB and HAVING HER COCKBLOCK YOU!!!). I could see how it
would be kinda helpful, being able to distance one's self from the possible
emotional repercussions involved in such an endeavor.

Mystery:  To think in terms of this being a GAME, it becomes FUN and we
lose our FEARS (the aware state fucks with us especially on the first 3
approaches of the night). It's a fun game and we have specific things we do
that WORK. So we do it again. We give the idea a name so we can talk about
it. I think this is what makes the workshop fun. We run around doing
approaches. It's exciting, scary and fast paced. Damn, I can't think of a
better way to learn the ropes.
> Eclypz with a "c": For instance, I know in the military that they use
all sorts of euphemisms and code words to avoid the blunt reality of the
casualties of war. I'm just asking here, seriously.

Mystery: Understood. Like I use BEFRIEND instead of DISARM. And THE ONE
instead of TARGET. I hear ya. The only time I talk with way is with other
PUAs. That is, if we are even PUAs. I don't put that on my resume. The PUA
nomer is only used HERE and to other men who I met from here. I don't meet
people in real life and tell them I'm a PUA. THIS is just a 'role'. In real
life, I'm Erik von Markovik This is just a hobby
of mine because people find my knowledge of social dynamics interesting and
educational and even helpful. And I'm writing a book called Sex Magic and
making a Mystery Method» Home Study Course on "How to Put Beautiful Women
Under Your Spell". What's cool? This information is legitimately valuable.
I'm doing IN-FIELD workshops (and doing research for my projects) to teach
people these ideas in the most effective way. Some people don't have the
money for the workshop so they can get the course or just the book. And
once this is all set up, I will focus on other aspects of my life. It's
JUST relationship advice that I'm giving. I'm authoring PRE-RELATIONSHIP
ADVICE, actually. The best part of all this is, ALL OF THESE IDEAS OF MINE
ARE TESTED. I actually DEMONSTRATE my methods. Either I get the girl or I
don't. Get a hold of those who have seen me.
> Another thing. You mentioned to Mark B. something about missing an
opportunity to hit it off with an HB in a bar that's being defensive, and
how if you wait to talk to a girl when she is alone you might miss out on
an opportunity for a "close" (does that mean it's over or does it just seal
the deal?). I've also heard the word "game" used quite often. I can
identify with that, because life is a series of games in a sense, and to
take it too seriously is to shoot yourself in the foot. But I remember a
time when I was of the same mentality. Hell, every now and then I, too, get
the feeling that if I don't take a chance, then I will see an opportunity
missed, but I've calmed down alot lately, and it has seemed to help.

Mystery: The GAME metaphor is one of many. "Getting girls is a war" is
another but that's highly counterproductive, IMO. The whole CON ARTIST
style SCAM GIRLS TO LAY YOU thing works for those who feel good exploiting
the weakness of others, but that's slimy. It's win/lose. The game metaphor
makes it win/win and makes the approach less stressful (hell, this is FUN
SHIT! I'm surrounded by girls and getting attention, nothing bad with THAT,
haaa). I'm doing this for FUN, not to get LAID. The lay is merely a bonus
if I choose to collect my prize. This is an IMPORTANT concept because it
removes the EXPECTATION of getting laid, which fucks your game up. You will
TELEGRAPH your WANT for SEX. I don't approach a group thinking, boy, do I
want to jam her. I think, "Mmmmm. She is beautiful. Let's see if she's fun
> After all, one thing is for sure, there is always another opportunity
around the corner. If you're trying to get over your fears of approaching,
and take a "go get 'em" stance, then that is great. But once you have that
IMO too much running around feeling that these women are all opportunities
that are passing you by, you'll get kinda nutty, trust me. I'm saying this
to everyone else, because I have a feeling you know where I'm coming from,

Mystery:  Yeah, I hear you. And I also understand WHY people go NUTS. It's
like this: you are so fucking lonely that you SNAP and start working on
this area of your life as a self help personal improvement thing.  Then ...
you actually get good at it. You start getting so much pussy that you GO
NUTS and want more more more. Then you let other areas of your life fall
apart because you are so into the pussy - it's like the stray cat feeding
frenzy. A normal kitten brought up with food stays thin - it eats enough to
be happy. But one that was starved for a long time at a young age learns to
appreciate that full feeling. So when it has a chance to eat all it wants,
it DOES! And eats and eats and eats. In many ways, I'm a victim of this.
(Read my posts from years ago!) But now I have the opportunity to eat
quality pussy (haa, sorry but that WAS punny). I'm building myself to be a
great man for a great woman. She will appreciate me for choosing the best
... her.
> So, anyway, this game you speak of, when is it over, and how do you know
you have won?

Mystery:  It's a metaphor. The game to ME is like PAINTBALL. At the end of
the day, who WON? Who cares? It was a series of games (12 games a night for
me). Practice for a time when a woman of PARTICULAR quality comes along. I
must be ready to get her the way SHE wants me to. Once she is my GF, I can
worry less about being GREAT and focus on sharing. Great fun. You go home
with some bruises and some exhilaration just like in paintball.
> Seriously, is this more like the perpetual tic-tac-toe thing from
"WarGames", where it's an infinite loop of moves and blocks that lead to
more moves and blocks, or is there an end in itself somewhere?

Mystery: Well, it's more like CHESS than TIC TAC TOE. One game is futile,
while the other one you learn from to get better for the next game. But you
know what? This is a WHY ARE WE HERE philosophical question, isn't it? Why
am I chasing girls? Because I have hardwired circuitry in my head (thanks
to my ancestors passing this to me) and I feel HAPPY achieving. Personally
there is method to my madness. My material - the routines I use on women -
I use in my show and in interviews. I practice being SOCIAL. I LOVE people.
I'm not a PUA in real life. I have friends, I'm writing books, I'm doing
shows. This all builds my confidence. NOW, I harness my sex drive for
financial gain. I only go out to a club if 1) I'm doing a workshop (I make
money and get #s) 2) if I'm doing a show (I make money and get #s - a show
is just a LARGER group set) or 3) if I'm going out with a girl
(relationship building). That's it.
> Sometimes it takes a "fed up" feeling to really get the ball moving in a
new direction. But don't let it become more than it is. You're allowed and
expected to make bad choices, and learn from them. Now, don't go making a
bad choice by thinking that you have to go flying off the deep end of the
control thing. Friedrich Nietzsche once said (and I'm paraphrasing) 'People
often make the mistake of living in one extreme, and then attempt to
correct it by going to the other extreme.' It's like they bounce from one
end to the other never finding the contentment in the middle. It's like a
game of perpetual tic-tac-toe, where no one really wins.

Mystery:  Yeah, I hear where you are coming from. The concept of HARNESSING
your sex drive (like I do to force myself to set workshop dates or set show
Napoleon Hill. I have been working on BALANCE in my life and, yes, the sex
drive did get outta hand. But to USE the sex drive to drive my other
efforts is an awesome concept for me. It is the sex drive (according to
Hill) that motivates people to greatness ... from NAPOLEON to SHAKESPEARE.
We rise to power for our future women. Where does this game end? When we
die. Even EATING is like perpetual TIC-TAC-TOE, isn't it?


> totally unnecessary. Just get a $15 Grapho Deck from and buy the $35 magical rapport CD from Essential
Skills and you won't need it at all. I don't.
> Craig: I am curious to know what city you live in and the quality and
age of the women you are going for. I'm sure these techniques work well for
you, but I am also sure that you're not going to the kind of clubs or bars
that we have in major metropolitan areas like Hollywood or San Diego.

Joseph: OK, this might be true. I live in the deep south and women are said
to be friendlier here. Either because of my locale or because of my rapport
skills, I almost never get attitude from women. Now, I do notice that if
you approach a target and don't make an effort to include her friend in the
conversation, then the friend will try to get her away from you. But that
doesn't mean you can't approach the target first.  As to the quality of
women I sarge, if a woman is not at least an 8.5, she has NO chance of
getting into my pants. If she's not at least a 9, she's still going to have
a rough time seducing me and she better have alot more to offer in some
other way too.
> I have found that the best method for me when it comes to REALLY hot
groups of women is to approach the group as a whole with a question, joke
or short story. After I get them laughing and make a good impression I will
bail out and move on. The magic happens when I see them again, because now
I can approach the girl I want directly. I don't have to worry about her
friends getting in the way, because they already know who I am and they
know that I'm the MAN! Of course, they could meet some other people while
I'm gone, but I could do the same!

Joseph:  I like this method.  I am sure it would work well. Might even try
it. Yesterday I saw a 6 foot model by herself in the grocery store, today I
saw an HB10 jogging, last night I saw a HB 9 walking down the street to a
club (prolly to meet her friends). I have been to Montreal and I saw women
alone there as well. Go figure!
> I like the $15 grapho deck for when you have a girl at your place,

Joseph: Once you've got her to your place, don't you think something a
little more powerful than patterning and the grapho deck are in order? I
like the Warmth Builder for the at home close.
> but I think the $35 could be better used as toilet paper or to buy some
D&G Pour Homme cologne (the best!).

Joseph:  I think cologne can make a person seem cheesy or materialistic or
poon hounding, especially if you accidentally use too much. But I have been
thinking of buying some Eros to see if pheromones really work, just to
check it out. Anybody know?
>Rapport is over rated.

Joseph: I think you must not know what rapport is. Even if you don't
realize that you have rapport, if you are fucking her or even kissing her
you DO have rapport. All the Magical Rapport Videos do is teach who how to
get rapport consciously, instead of leaving it up to your subconscious.
Trust me, it works!


Mark B.:
>You have a new subscriber named Mike K. Mike was a bartender at the Men's
Club during SpaceLord's reign of terror. He moved to San Fran over a year
ago but we still keep in touch. I asked him to put together some thoughts
on how best to approach strippers and this is what he advises.....
"My best advice comes straight from the WHOPPER computer "Joshua" in the
movie War Games with Matt Broderick. The only way to win is not to play the

MB: So true. The faster way to not get a stripper is to give her money,
evade what you want and play into her game. But this is true elsewhere as
well. Giving into their infantile demands such as where they eat, sit,
park, fuck, blow, gives way too much power away and makes you look like the
parent that catered to their every need yet had no respect.
>GameMaster: He's murder with the gals but he's done with strippers.
Mike's the only guy I'm still in contact with from the Men's Club days. I
tried to get him to work up a post but I have to agree with him...just stay
away from them.

MB: Right on advice. Most of them are so fucked up that they are really
only good for fucking and little else. Be so careful of getting involved
with one in a relationship for it is a nightmare from hell most of the time.
>Clifford: Mystery's methods are clearly 'another way.' Your way and his
do not have to be reconciled - there's more than one way to get a woman
interested. The ideal would be to develop the instinct to know which tactic
to use in which situation, because I am sure that no one (including you and
Mystery) is 100% successful using the same thing over and over on different
women. Different women will react different ways (sure, there will be a
number that will like your way, but there will also be ones that need a
different approach) - there's no point in looking at this as it's only my
way vs. your way.

MB:  I find the most common denominator to success is really just being
there, talking and engaging her in conversation - however nonsensical. In
his book Fooled by Randomness, the author talks about the effects of random
occurrences on our lives. He cites cases where academic articles about pure
nonsense, written in a highly complex academic language were published in
academic journals and given high praise simply
because they were complex sounding but had no real meaning or topic
whatsoever - which of course none of the editors were willing to admit at
the risk of sounding ignorant.
>So, if you want girls to stop being frigid, don't be frigid yourself! Her
attitude reflects on you, and you mirror that attitude, and get this
self-propagating system set up where no
one gets any ass. You have to break out of this terrible pattern, and show
that you're a man, with certain desires, and you're VERY proud of those
desires, because they make up who you are, your personality, and you can't
possibly be any less then proud of your personality. So, just like Mark and
I always talk about, be open to her. Did she give you an erection? Tell
her, if she giggles look at her like a stupid little girl, and make her
feel stupid for giggling, ask "'ve never heard of an erection in
your life...why is that funny to you?" If the skirt she's wearing makes you
wanna fuck her, tell her that. Don't be afraid that you'll sound like a's who you are, talk to her about books, movies, but in the same
calm manner talk to her about sex. So many people need to learn that sex is
a normal part of life, and you're not a dirty swine if you like it, or talk
about it.

MB: One thing I can add is that the sooner you do this the better off you
are. And if you say it with a half serious look on your face, it adds a
great punch to the meaning of what you are saying. If you do not make the
first move of being open, they usually will not do so first. These days I
am open about my own masturbation. I used to be inhibited until I met an HB
who openly talked to me about how she plays with herself as if it was
normal and expected to do. This gave me the freedom to express that side to
her and now I have no problem jerking off in front a woman while she lays
there naked or even clothed - what a rush.
>HitmanPT: I've read a post (sorry, I don't remember where, I think it was
on ASF) from a guy, who successfully approached a girl and started seeing
her as a PUA. He was in control, he decided when they go and where they go.
As the days passed by, he began to fall in love. He started seeing her more
often and slowly giving her control (it started with small things). The
next thing he knows she's dumping him! Which is not a big surprise, he
became a total AFC, the girl was no longer attracted to him as she totally
controlled him, he's no longer a challenge but a guy who does her every
wish! Moral of the story: even if you want to keep seeing (= fucking) a
specific girl, don't ever lose the Alpha Male» status, don't give in
control! Always remember you are the man, you control the shots!

MB: In the past this was my pattern of behaviour but I would not let it
come to the point where she would dump me. As I became more and more
accommodating, she became more and more unruly and would get out of line.
Then I would get pissed off and tall her to get her shit together and
inevitably she would get back in line. I figured that it is this in control
attitude that they all need and now avoid getting into this trap at all
costs.  On Saturday, I was out with an HB that manages a sports bar. She
gets hit on all the time by the patrons and earlier in the week some guy
bought her a cell phone because she lost hers. When I told her that he is
trying to get on her good side and then into her pants she objected and
said that she saw his gesture as nothing more than a good deed. When I
asked her how she could not see what he is doing, she said that he did not
mention anything about a date or anything that she just does not see him
that way. This illustrates
my point about initial positioning and the need to make your interest and
intent known right away irrespective of how long they know you or whether
you have been able to demonstrate social proof, humour, etc. When you set
up what you are about, everything you do after that they have no choice but
to see through the perceptual filter you have set up. Then she said "Mark,
guys are just too easy, I am losing interest in men, I like a challenge and
most if not all men kiss my ass and I hate that." So I said to her with a big
smile "Stop whining, we're leaving here (pool hall) and we're going back to
my place to fuck." She looked at me, smiled, and I took her home and boned
her brains out for 2 hours (she was spotting near the end of her period but
not enough for good old Indian red war paint, damn : )
>CPowles: I just wanted to comment that this is only ONE type of PUA. One
of the first and best PUAs I ever saw hardly ever talked. He was a natural
who could just make eye contact, take an HB into a dark corner or his car,
go at it, and then part without a word ever exchanged. When he did sarges
where he talked, he said very little. He just had a gentle, easy, yet
suggestive energy. My point is that it can be good NOT to talk or be a
loudmouth some times, because then women can project their fantasy on to
you. This was how he worked: he was quiet, mysterious, intelligent,
sexually intuitive -- a woman's adventure. This can also, as you say,
"bypass their expressed wholesome, relationship oriented, conscious

MB: I think what could work well here is recognizing what you are and then
maximizing that. If you are naturally inclined to talk like Ross, maximize
your talking for best effect. I tend to be very reserved in person, rather
quiet, almost a loner type of a persona. This is why being calm, cool,
collected, intelligent, hushed, quiet works so well for me if I take it to
the extreme. In that case, they see that I am at my truest and most sincere
self in that state and consequently they are drawn to that level of
integrity of being.


> Christos: While checking out some of the discount VCR stores in HK, I
stumbled across a ten HK dollar copy of the Tao of Steve. I remembered
hearing some positive comments on this list about this film and at that
price (about a buck U.S., I just had to see what it was all about. If you
haven't seen it then hunt etc etc...

DB: The movie is based on the real PUA life of a guy named Duncan North.
Yes, the ending is pure how the PUA lifestyle is empty and
have Steve convert to be a baffoonish AFC that gives all the power to that
special girl . See how long that works!
Anyway , his current goals in life are to "lose weight and date fine
women", contrary to the movie ending. His turning point with women (he
originally was a loser with them) was when he and some friends were at a
bar talking to an HB. His friends were arguing with her political opinions,
but he disagreed strongly. He left the bar thinking he had struck out with
this gal, but she followed and gave him her number. The rest is history.
His email address is dun***n@ta***.com[ ? ] if you have any questions.


> Clifford: Without going into a lot of detail, if your intention is to
sleep with her that night and you tell her that, how is that not honest? No
one says you have to marry a girl just because you approach her - that
would totally scare most of them away anyway. Fucking and dumping is an
immature model of picking up women - more intelligent is to make a friend
out of her (whether you see her again or not, she shouldn't leave you
thinking you are a jerk) who will greet you with a smile when she sees you
out the next time.

HitmanPT: I always try to keep in contact with the girls I fuck. I don't
like fucking and
dumping, I don't do this intentionally but there are times a girl just
wants to be my
girl (exclusively) and I have to say no...some of them take this the wrong
way and say
shit like: "Yeah...I was just a one night stand to you" ...I have to tell
her "yes" lol
and then try to stay at least her friend (for occasional fucks and for her
to introduce me to her friends). There are tactics like time distortion
that you're telling a girl stuff from the future, saying how she'll be
happy with you 6 months from now, when you know you won't be with her then.
But I don't judge tactics (since it doesn't imply doing something that she
doesn't want to do), some of them may be a little dishonest...and others
more honest, like Rio's SOI .
> CPowles: Yes, my new tactic, when I meet an HB I #closed is to call a
SECOND HB to meet us out, one who I don't desire as much. In addition
to  the social proof and the "women want a man desired by other women"
elements, this is effective because the first HB has to work and compete
for me. Also, I can reward and punish the HB I want by choosing to pay
attention or not pay attention to the second HB. And when the second HB
finally leaves, the HB I want is elated to finally be alone with me. This
has worked really well lately.

HitmanPT: I believe this works better if the second HB is prettier than the
one you're with (eg. an HB9.5 or HB10 that you fucked and are still friends


Brother Kermit:
> Daniel: Does anyone here deal with, or have ways to deal with sexual
inhibition and
frigidity? I know many, many conservative girls, and before you flood me
with reasons why these girls aren't worth it, consider it as another
challenge and another weapon and skill in your arsenal.... Anyway, I know
some sexual attraction patterns, etc. but what are the ways by which to
bring up specific fantasies (bear in mind that this cannot be done overtly,
as in a Grand Master PUA)without getting them embarrassed or uncomfortable?
The reason I ask is, a lot of women are mentally immature and giggle at the
sexual side of things, mainly because they attach so much importance to it
and it is such a deep part of them, that it often goes unexplored.

Brother Kermit: Prior to any seduction knowledge, I had a girlfriend who
was quite frigid. This same girl later lost her virginity to me under a
friends-plus frame. I don't know if these techniques will work on all
women, but they sure as hell worked for me.
Frigid women may have a past of emotional-screwed-up-ness. Beware about
becoming her therapist. That being said, here are the thoughts.
At first take the lead, play with them, get them to play with you.
Sometimes a woman is frigid because she's inexperienced. Make her feel like
she is skilled, and watch her enthusiasm grow. NEVER, NEVER criticize. They
will only clam up more. Don't ask them "do you like it?, or "is it good for
you?". Even if it is, they will probably answer something negative, which
will only reinforce their state. Just show them, you are having fun. In
time, she will feed off that. Other things you may want to try is
introducing porn into your settings. HOWEVER, just view it with her. DO NOT
get sexual while watching porn. If you do, she will feel compared with the
women on the screen. Just let her absorb the enjoyment the women on the
video are experiencing. Try to find porn that shows women taking active
roles in sexuality. Maybe some female to female action. Calibrate for this
Regarding: fantasies, that doesn't always work for me and the frigid women.
They themselves can't enjoy their fantasies (as they claim it to be) but if
you create an open, friendly atmosphere that is safe for them to be slutty
and dirty, and never be judged, that too will break down the barriers.
Again, I will say it. NEVER NEVER criticize them for anything regarding
their sexual preferences. My experiences is that these women not only have
the same fantasies as other women, these women's fantasies go that extra
step, but unless you make it OK for them to express it, they never will.
Other tricks to use is to allow yourself to be at her mercy. In this game,
you lie down, maybe watch TV, and her job is to distract you. (with
massage, kisses, oral sex). This game gives her a sense of power, and the
freedom to explore her power at her own pace. (Play this only after you
establish yourself as the dominant in prior experiences.) You may not
always get laid with this approach, but damn it can be fun.
Another trick is to over-exaggerate your response to any action she does
that you want repeated. In other words, even if her blow jobs suck, freak
out about how great she is, and how she knows just how to do it to you. As
soon as she feels that sex isn't impossible for her, she will (in time)
initiate it more and more, and guess what? Her eventual enthusiasm will
make up for a lack of technique. And in time, because she is going to get
more and more into doing a particular thing to you, she will get good at
it. One girl I am still in contact with wasn't very experienced when I had
sex with her, but I made such a big deal how she was the best blow I ever
had (she had no prior experience) that she couldn't wait to suck on me
every other chance she got. She was lousy at first, but damn she got good
fast. Also, her self-esteem shot up, and it encouraged her to believe that
she may have other hidden sexual talents.
All this is to say...with frigid women, it is not always a physical thing,
and instead of becoming her therapist, just be patient. VERY, patient. You
may not get to go all the way, but if you follow the techniques listed
above, you will definitely be the guy to still make her blush after all
these years.
Note: I put in all this time and effort those few years ago, because I was
an AFC and believed I couldn't do better. That being said, if you aren't
interested in making the necessary efforts (and I can understand if you
aren't), then find someone else to bang, and set her up with an AFC friend
of yours.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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