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"It was all voice tonality, attitude, initiative, and balls"

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It was all voice tonality, attitude, initiative, and balls
5/1/02 6:04:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time


> Jeff Y: I think I've set a new record. 6 girls in a row have flaked out
on meeting me. Can anyone top that? Is there anyone who used to get this a
lot a found a way to overcome it?

Ross:  Flakiness is one of my pet peeves and favorite topics. I've written
a lot about this before.
First, look at the age range of these girls. Most of them, it appears, are
still TEENAGERS. Just because they have women's bodies doesn't mean you can
expect them to act like ADULTS.
Girls at this age have lives ruled by their whims of the moment, the stress
of the uncontrollable, turmoil of being independent for the first time, bad
home lives, etc. etc. etc. NOTHING is real to them beyond the next 24 hours.
> Here's a breakdown of the girls: Mindy 18, 9 - She actually did meet me
for coffee and before we left she asked me to go out with her on Saturday,
but when I call her she doesn't answer. I leave a message telling her to
call me when she gets this, and I never hear from her. (Funny thing is,
during our first meeting she said she always does what she says she'll do.)

Ross:  Dude..she's 18, a hottie, and gets so much attention, she doesn't
know what to do with it.
She's enjoying her power, and why shouldn't she? And it seems you are
following HER lead, calling her on Saturday...whose idea was THAT? Girls
this young need a VERY firm lead.
> Norma 24, 9 - Stopped her as she got off the elevator at school. She was
wearing a Winnie the Pooh watch so I started asking her about which
characters she liked the most. She was acted very shy but chatted with me
for a minute then I told her I'd like to meet her for coffee sometime and
she says ok and asks if I want her number. I finally get a hold of her a
week later and she's acting REALLY shy and stand offish which I ask her
about. I say how she tends to hold people off at a distance at first and
has hard time feeling comfortable right away with someone. She agrees then
I ask her to meet me the next day. We agree on a time and she gives me her
address to pick her up but tells me to call her before coming over (I hate
it when they do that), but I say ok. I call her the next day and no answer.

Ross:  Again, note that test. Whenever I hear that my answer is, "Why would
I want to do that when we can make a real plan NOW?"
> Angelica 19, 7.5 - I've noticed this girl checking me out several times
at school and we had smiled at each other a couple of times. One day a few
weeks ago, I'm in the computer lab and her and this other guy sit across
from me. He's hitting on her big time. I'm feeling under the weather this
day and when I cough she says "God bless you" to me. I tell her I didn't
sneeze but thank her anyway. A little while later, the guy leaves and I
cough again and she asks me if I sneezed and I say no. Then a little later
I borrow a pen from her then return it with a note that basically says I've
been wanting to meet her and I'd like to meet for coffee. She laughs and
says sure and we set up a time (almost two weeks later because of our
conflicting schedules).

Ross:  Two weeks? Dude, at 19, two DAYS is too long a time for something to
remain real...unless it is the guy who REALLY burned them in the 10th
grade. THAT they will remember into their 30's!
>She asks me if I want her number and then writes it down for me. I try
calling her the following Sunday and she is not home. I  call Wednesday (2
days before date) and her sister answers and tells me I'm calling too late
and won't let me talk to her. So I don't call again.

Ross:  Timing is all wrong. ALL wrong.
> Brenda19, 7.5 - See her sitting alone in the library at school and
I  introduce myself and sit down at her table. I had been practicing SS at
home and managed to work some in during the intro with this one. She seems
to be eating it up, then I use Sis's 'do you have email' line. She doesn't
but cracks up when I ask if she has electricity and gives me her number
without hesitation. Then she also gives me her work number and tells me I
can reach her better there. Then she asks me for my number so I figure this
one's a lock. I call her 3 days later on Tuesday.

Ross:  The only thing that is a lock is that she is enjoying your
attention. That could be ALL that it is. You see...what are you doing to
stick in her mind?
You are assuming she is already attracted to you, based on her behavior,
when it could just be enjoying the attention. I don't see any patterning or
any future pacing her wanting to be with you. You are ASSUMING more of an
impact than what you are really having...that is the problem with all this
"do you have email" shit. Ok, so she has fucking what? WHAT
Answer: slim or none.
So why expect to have any more when you try to contact her?  As for her
asking for your number...that probably was so she could call you if YOU
never called her. It probably was just a defense against the "they always
get my number but never call" fear.
> Fluff talk   Me: So what would you say if I were to ask you to meet me
for coffee? Her: When? Me: Later today.  Her: I'm supposed to go shopping
with my mom when I get off work so I don't think I can today. Is that
ok?  Me: Yeah that's ok. So you can't think of day that would be better?

Ross: You just let her put you off! "Yeah, that's ok". Girls at this age
need a strong lead, as in you jokingly saying, "That is SOOOO not ok. I've
got Brittany Spears coming over later, so I don't know what the rest of my
week will be like. So just tell Mom she can take you later and meet me at 3."
> Her: Uhm how about Friday? No, not Friday, I mean, unless you want to.
Me: Friday's fine with me, I'm off of school that day, is that your day
off? Her: No, I was thinking after I get off at 6. Me: Ok, that's fine do
you want to meet at Starbucks or someplace in Montrose? Her: Uh, call me
Friday and we'll figure it out. Me: Ok, I'll talk to you then.

Ross: Wow! What a strong lead you are giving her (not). Don't ask her where
she wants to meet...tell her where you will meet her.  Look, your big error
is treating these flaky girl-women like they are equal partners who can
share in the decision making.
Christ Jesus, Dude..they are just outta High School. Stop seeing getting
them as an affirmation of your attractiveness and instead be determined to
set a FIRM lead. Anyone under 23 pretty much requires YOU make all the
> Nora 25, (would be a 10 if not for her hairy arms) - Meet her at the
gym. She is drop dead gorgeous. English is definitely her second language,
though. I run my gym pattern on her which doesn't go that well because I
haven't done it in a while but I go for it and suggest we meet for a drink,
and she says she doesn't have much time lately.

Ross: aren't calibrating her...she's not responding well and you
don't back up and try to get a better go for the pitch
anyway. BAD MOVE.  Back up, get more rapport, try another doorway in.
>More fluff talk then I ask if she ever goes to Starbucks. She gets
excited and says she drinks coffee 5x day.

Ross:  Uh.....probably more like crystal-meth. Something is wrong when
someone drinks coffee 5x a day, dude.
> She asks if I have my cell phone and I say it is in my locker. Then she
asks for my number. I thought she was going to say she'd call me but
instead she calls my cell right there so I'll have her number. I call her a
few times and she always seems to be busy.

Ross:  A few times? Seems to be busy? This is a shit test, my man. Will you
take control, tell her to pay attention, and make some kind of firm plan or
will you let her put you off with that "I am busy".
You cannot approach very young women (or strippers) like they are equal
partners in the decision making. WILL...NOT....WORK.
> Then on the same day I called Brenda, I call her and ask her to meet me.
Her: When? Me: This afternoon. Her: I have to go to the gym before I go to
work. Why don't you come see me at work? Turns out she's a stripper but I
don't want to turn into a customer so I just ask when her next day off is
and we agree to meet the following Sunday. She suggests we also go to the
movies. I decide to do something different with this one and confirm the
meeting the day before. Then the next day I call her and she says she's
eating with her family but will meet me at four. I ask her to call me if
she's running late and she says she will. I go to meet her and she never
shows. I call her and leave this message: "Hola Nora, it's 4:50 and we were
supposed to meet at 4 o'clock. Obviously something in your environment
prevented you from meeting me, and I was just curious as to what that was.
You didn't strike me as the type of person who would deliberately interrupt
her own opportunities, especially when the  first taste was so good. I'm
also wondering why you didn't call me to let me know you were going to be
late like you said you would. So call me and let me know what the scoop
is."  She never calls. I see her in the gym a couple days ago and she says
she was busy with her mom and is sorry. She also tries telling me that she
didn't get my message. I basically tell her that she's full of shit and
that I don't think she is sorry. Then leave.

Ross:  Strippers ARE basically full of shit. Fuck them the day you meet
them or you will not fuck them at all (unless you are willing to use
cocaine, crystal meth, etc. as bait).
> Rocsio 19, 8.5 - See her sitting at a chair with no table and I sit in
the one next to her. Me: Hi! Her: Hi. Me: Can I ask you a question? Her:
Sure Stare for a bit then say, what's your name? Smiles and says
Rocsio.  Me: Rocsio? What kind of name is that? Her: (Laughs) I don't know.
Hispanic I guess, my family is from Mexico and I'm Hispanic. Me: Well, so
am I. Her:You are? Me: Yeah. Well, half Hispanic. Her:What else are you?
Me: I'm half Mexican and quarter Finnish and a quarter Swedish. (She seems
to be impressed)  She's wearing lime green sandals and I ask if that's her
favorite color.  Her: No, I just wanted something different.  Me: So then
what is your favorite color?  Her: Red.  Me: You want to see something
cool?  Then I show her the four magic questions which she really digs and
ask what  my responses were. Then she comments on how she doesn't like
change when we're looking at her answers about death, and I say, "yeah a
lot of people are like that. I was reading this book by Bill Phillips that
said most people have a tendency to keep looking at the past and not
letting go of it. But when a person can let go of their past (point away)
and look to your future (SP) and you can see your future right in front of
you (SP) and you know that this is what you really want, then you can have
a much more fulfilling life because you're better able to see an
opportunity right in front of you (SP) when it comes along and you can grab
onto this opportunity and go for it."  We fluff talk some more, then I ask
her if she has email, she does and writes it down, then I say "you know I
was thinking if you write down your number I could call you sometime."
Without any hesitation she writes it down almost as if I was doing her a
favor by telling her to give it to me.

Ross: I keep telling you...asking for email PUTS YOU INTO THE PUSSY
CATEGORY. It is saying, "I'm harmless, gee I want a pen-pal...oh, and if
you give me your number I could call you sometime pretty please with sugar
I don't mean to scare you my darling angel princess."
This getting email stuff is crap.
> Then, like Brenda, she asks for my number and email so I think this is a
lock, even after getting flaked by Brenda.

Ross:  She's being polite. Or following her own little "auto-pilot" program.
> I call her a few days later at 9:30 p.m. and she's very standoffish and
I'm feeling very awkward because I never expected it to be so difficult.
Then she asks me to call her the next day because her whole family is
asleep. I call her two days later in the morning around 10 a.m.

Ross:  Look, she probably just is scared of "boys".  You know what is
lacking in your approaches? Any idea of what kind of PERSON you want to
attract. If they look good and are young, that is it...How about drawing to
you someone who is OPEN to new learning, eager to explore life,
adventurous, etc., etc., etc.?  Where are YOUR filters, where YOU will
eject on a girl if you don't like her energy/emotions/attitude/answers?  I
don't see any of the other "Gurus" on this list address this, because maybe
they don't give a fuck, or they DO know the traits they look for, and they
don't talk about it because the traits are pretty negative and require a
lifestyle/set-up to pull these kind of girls that they KNOW you likely
don't have and won't or can't get.
> Me: Your family's not asleep are they?  Her: (Laughs) No!  I couldn't
talk the other day because I was in my mom's room and they were trying to
sleep. Me: Your family goes to bed pretty early, huh? Her:Yeah, because
they have to get up early.  Me: I see. Well, I was wondering why you were
so standoffish?  Her:You mean mean?  Me: No, not mean you just sounded
annoyed that I was calling you. Her: Well, I wasn't.

Ross:  She's probably just uncomfortable around men. SHE'S A KID, for
Christ sakes.
> Fluff talk and I use the line I used on Mindy to get her to meet me for
coffee and say "can I be totally honest with you. I hate trying to get to
know people over the phone so I was thinking we could me at Starbucks and
get to know each other better."  No response  "that is if you're
comfortable."  She tells me she doesn't know where Starbucks is and that
she never goes out. But we agree to meet the next day at a mall behind my
apartment which she is familiar with. Then she says she'll call me because
she's starting a new job and is not sure when she'll get off work. I
swallow this hook line and sinker.  Guess what? She never calls.  I email
her this.  Let me guess. Your parakeet got sick all of a sudden so you
couldn't meet me and your dog ate my phone number so you couldn't call me
to give me the simple courtesy of letting me know you weren't going to make
it. I must say I'm surprised. You didn't strike me as the type of person
who would deliberately interrupt her own opportunities so I'm wondering
what it was that kept you from missing out. If there's one thing that I've
learned from living in Houston for 4 years is that beauty is common but
people with a great attitude and great outlook on life are rare and they're
worth working  to get to know. I felt like we connected pretty good when we
met and the truth is I was hoping we could have some kind of romantic
adventure together or at the very least become good friends. I know you're
not too comfortable with change but I'm pretty sure the change I could have
made in your life would not have been that bad. It's a shame you couldn't
open yourself up to that possibility and that we'll never have the
opportunity to see how much this could have enriched our lives. Well good
luck, Rocsio.   And she sends me this
>> Subject: Re: we were supposed to meet yesterday
>> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:29:16 EDT
>> Jeff,  I'm very sorry about yesterday no excuse is good enough. I won't
waste your time trying to explain why I could not make it or give you a
call. I just want to apologize  I'm sorry for everything  Rocsio

Ross:  Probably she got burned by some guy in the 10th grade and is still
obsessing over it. Plus, she comes from something of a traditional family
who probably hate the idea of her getting anything in her pussy other than
a tampon, and even then, she feels like a slut if the applicator brushes
her clit. EJECT! EJECT! Get some standards and some back-bone!
> In addition to these girls there about another ten girls I've gotten
phone numbers from but couldn't get to agree on a date or anything. I know
I'm not the greatest on the phone but I don't understand why getting a girl
to meet you should be so difficult. Especially after what I perceived to be
as very positive responses during the first meeting. Any ideas guys?

Ross: Be determined to set a VERY strong lead with these young women. Have
standards and eject on the ones who seem impacted, overly shy, etc. Do some
patterning to leave them thinking about you in a positive way. Close as
soon as possible. Under 23, nothing is real for them for more than 4-5
days, usually more than 2 days!


> Jeff Y: I think I've set a new record. 6 girls in a row have flaked out
on meeting me. Can anyone top that? Is there anyone who used to get this a
lot a found a way to overcome it?

Me: So what would you say if I were to ask you to meet me for coffee? Her:
When? Me: Later today. Her: I'm supposed to go shopping with my mom when I
get off work so I don't think I can today. Is that ok? Me: Yeah that's ok.
So you can't think of day that would be better? Her: Uhm how about Friday?
No, not Friday, I mean, unless you want to. Me: Friday's fine with me, I'm
off of school that day, is that your day off? Her: No, I was thinking after
I get off at 6. Me: Ok, that's fine do you want to meet at Starbucks or
someplace in Montrose? Her: Uh, call me Friday and we'll figure it out. Me:
Ok, I'll talk to you then. I call her around 2:30 and they tell me she's
out to lunch but take my number and say she'll call me in about half an
hour. No call. Even if she didn't get the message she already had my number.

Stephane: Okay, at the risk of insulting you, please allow me to make fun
of your approach a little bit : ) You said,"So what would you say if I were
to ask you to meet me for coffee?"   This is so weak, boring, pathetic,
normal, unoriginal, lame and the part I hate the most is that not only are
you ASKING (which is bad) but you ask in a WEAK way. "So what would you say
IF..." Blech! Be a MAN!
Now that I've 'insulted' you, lemme show you a way out.  The other day I
saw this cute chick on the train (which is where I pick up most of my
cuties these days). I'd seen her a few days before and managed to get a
friendly smile out of her from afar but I didn't approach her. Anyway, this
is basically how I picked her up:
Me:"Hi, I've seen you before, haven't I?"
Me:"You were the one smiling at me the other day, weren't you?"
Her: "hehe, I guess"
Me:"Don't be embarrassed, women stare at me all the time" (smiling proudly)
Her: (laughing, blushing)
Me:"Well, you know what they say, 'perception is projection'"
Her: (didn't get it, looking embarrassed)
Me:"You seem'll be nice when the train comes because I like to be
seen sitting next to a beautiful's good for my self-esteem"
We got on the train and I continued getting to know her & chatting with
her. When we got off the train I didn't "ASK" her out, I told her what I
wanted in a romantic and charming way. I said, "You know what? I think that
a charming young gentleman like myself should at least be given a CHANCE to
try and pick you up, don't you?"
She laughed and said yes so I said,"I'm taking you out to lunch" and
grabbed her by the hand and LED HER to a nice little restaurant. Oh yeah, I
was making out with her before we even got there : )
The point I am trying to make, besides bragging, is that I'm controlling
the conversation from the start and I never ASK them I TELL THEM. Huge
difference. Women want a leader, not a needy follower seeking permission
and approval. Based on your dialogue, you gave her control of the
situation, you let HER decide when and where. And it's not working out for
you because it's not her role. Call me sexist, call me old-fashioned, call
me a pig, but I believe the man should take the lead. Hope this helps.
> I called Brenda, I call her and ask her to meet me. Her: When? Me: This
afternoon. Her: I have to go to the gym before I go to work. Why don't you
come see me at work? Turns out she's a stripper but I don't want to turn
into a customer so I just ask when her next day off is and we agree to meet
the following Sunday. She suggests we also go to the movies.

Stephane:  Good move on your part (not going to her work). Because if you
go to her work then you are her FRIEND or CUSTOMER. Friends and customers
don't get laid. Now, if a slut tells me she is gonna call me and doesn't, I
never call her again, ever. Fuck her, she can chase after ME. I'm a very
unreasonable man. I never chase after women, ESPECIALLY if she's a goddamn
stripper. If they stand me up I don't confront them because that's what
every other chump does and guilt tripping them into seeing you never works
anyway. Fuck 'em, there's other women out there. Since you see her at the
gym on a regular basis, I would have just pretended like nothing happened.
She would then come and see me to try to apologize/explain and I might say
(calmly),"Sorry, I don't do flakes".
Then I'd let HER chase ME for a while. I'm very unreasonable and I'm very
> Me: You want to see something cool? Then I show her the four magic
questions which she really digs and ask what my responses were.

Stephane:  4 magic questions?
> I call her a few days later at 9:30 p.m. and she's very standoffish and
I'm feeling very awkward because I never expected it to be so difficult.
Then she asks me to call her the next day because her whole family is
asleep. I call her two days later in the morning around 10 a.m.

Stephane:  WOAH. You called her and she told you 'call me later' AND YOU
CALLED HER LATER?? Good puppy. What other tricks can you do? Can you beg
too? Come over to my house because I have a cock that needs to be sucked,
See, you gave her the control, but the steering wheel belongs to YOU.
Remember that. If a broad says "I'm busy, call me back" then I tell HER to
call ME. Control is vital. Give them the steering wheel and you will crash
and burn, my friend.
> Me: I see. Well, I was wondering why you were so standoffish? Her:You
mean mean? Me: No, not mean you just sounded annoyed that I was calling
you. Her: Well, I wasn't.

Stephane:   If she wasn't annoyed then she is now!
> She tells me she doesn't know where Starbucks is and that she never goes
out. But we agree to meet the next day at a mall behind my apartment which
she is familiar with.

Stephane:  NO NO NO NO NO! SHE goes where YOU want to go. "I'll be at
Starbucks, meet me there." If she doesn't then there's other women out there.


GameMaster (responding to requests for more info on the astrology software
he mentioned previously):
I know most guys think astrology is bullshit but I've been studying for
about 6 years and found it to be consistently 95% accurate. Horoscopes
'are' bullshit, the science of astrology is not only fascinating to women,
but it will save you a lot of time
and wasted energy when you understand the basics. I'll make a believer out
of any of you guys in 10 minutes. Anyway, the least
expensive and easiest to use is "Expert Astrologer". It's about $10 on a
closeout rack at CompUSA or Best Buy. But anybody
that wants to get seriously into it check out the Astrology for Lovers
download at
It's free shareware for 30 days, then you'll need to fork over $50 to
register the software and unlock full utility. It's as good as some of the
$300 suites out there and will produce 25 page color reports on every
aspect of your relationships. Worth a test drive.
Once you get the basics down you'll know instantly her likes/dislikes, her
value system, level of passion, what you can get away with in bed and what
you need to avoid, and the best part....the easiest way to end the
relationship when it's time to bail. One tip, exact birthtimes are critical
for an accurate chart, especially when you're comparing two people.

>> My co-point is this: please, understand that knowing what to observe,
knowing what questions to ask, how to recognize  powerful responses, anchor
and use them: THESE ARE SPEED SEDUCTION» PATTERNS. The model of SS that many
people are still thinking about on this list comes from 1993, when it
virtually WAS almost ALL about "memorized speeches" that you recited back.
That has changed enormously over the years; please talk to any student who
has the more current material.
>Ross, I know I'm still working off the material from the home study
course (and, of course, your Winter 2000 Magick weekend in L.A.), but I'm
definitely wanting to update the model (beyond my own additions, of course).

93:  What are the latest and greatest products??

Clifford's Comments:  Go to for
Ross's latest and greatest.
> Ross: Powerfully true...hence my 4 levels of the mind theory and theme...

93: Is this the same as the 4 doorways?
> Ross: Well, what have I been saying all along? It works best when you
repeat back THEIR OWN WORDS.

93: Here's a fun way of doing that... You know those 'instant poetry'
magnets that people put on their refrigerators, that have just one word or
a phrase on each one, and you can recombine them to make funny and
enlightening new 'poems'? It's just like that: when you hear a trance word
or phrase, imagine you're grabbing the word from her mouth on a little
white magnet, and just put it on a blank space of the fridge in your mind -
a place where you store it with the others, like a 'word pool'. Then all
you have to do is pull that word from the 'word pool' and plug it into
something you're saying to her - just like you're rearranging the magnets
and then reading them to her. And when you're saying the words to her that
you know mean something to her, it's funny how it's just like you're
playing back a tape-recording of her own tone and tempo. I've always liked
playing with those little magnets, and that's just one way to do it.
> Ross: Magick and NLP are very close cousins.....

93:  Kissing cousins! Speaking of which, Ross, I'm going to be presenting
an NLP/magick thing for my brethren and sistren here in L.A sometime around
July... if you'd like to chat about that... I don't know if it's open to
the public or not yet, but arrangements are always possible for certain
people. Interestingly enough so far my ideas about it are pretty much
ENTIRELY different than how your Magick class went, primarily focused on
modelling with magickal processes as examples, so they can go out and model
better on their own. Although I'm going to go back and think about what you
did that I could add, since it's my first group playtime...
> Jeff Y:  I think I've set a new record. 6 girls in a row have flaked out
on meeting me. Can anyone top that? Is there anyone who used to get this a
lot a found a way to overcome it? Here's a breakdown of the girls: Any
ideas guys?

93:  Jeff, first, congrats for crunching the numbers! You definitely are
setting yourself up for success as soon as you can add in a few
distinctions.  Ok, here goes:
- First, Stop asking them what they want so much! YOU are the one giving
THEM the opportunity. Let them know when you are available and let them
make a choice. If they seem wishywashy, you need to deepen rapport and
build up the loss they will experience if you reject them as well as the
pleasure they will experience if they earn your attention. I guarantee that
when you've done this correctly, they will be more decisive than you! They
will insist on ditching their appointments with Mom, or school or work or
the gym, so they can come over and bounce on your lovebone.
- Next, if they flake out on you, use it as a chance to consider how you
could have made yourself more desirable to them. Then the next time you
talk to them or their answering service, make it clear that they fucked up,
that you don't date fuck ups, and that if they want to get together they're
going to have to work a lot harder. NOW when you're making this clear, do
it sternly but POLITELY. Maintain your respect for them, only disrespect
the behavior. You're engaging who they ARE, their identity, and
communicating that YOU know they're not wishywashy deep down inside, and
YOU'RE not going to allow them to be anything less than their best. And
then forget about them. Move on. I guarantee if you've talked to 5 other
women since then, they will magically be calling you back with all sorts of
ideas about how they can find time to fuck you. It's like people are linked
psychically and as you talk to more and more women, these little signals
get sent out into the ether that you're one of those 'bad boys' that women
love to try and tame. And it's your duty to let them try.
PERSONALLY VERIFY. Listen carefully to them. Remember what they say. Repeat
their words and phrases back to them in the right tone and tempo. But only
BELIEVE what you actually see/hear/feel/smell them do. Smell? you say?
Think about it! On a first date if you asked a woman, "Have you ever had a
really stinky fart?!", do you think she would admit it? Probably not. (btw,
I would save this for another time, personally) Butt I guarantee somebody
somewhere has been tortured by one of her stinkiest - her parents could
probably back me up on that. So if you don't check what she tells you she
does by comparing it to actual observation of what she does, you might as
well stick your face in her ass and ask her to push, because you would have
set yourself up for some fairly shitty outcomes! Good thing you're smarter
than that.
- First and finally, if a woman VOLUNTEERS attention (ala the 'bless you'
incidents), jump on her invitation. Reward her instantly so that her
unconscious begins to understand that it will get what it wants if it gives
you what you want. Make sense?Overall though, you're doing great with those
#s, and so now's the time to start considering how much fun you can have
with learning to close #s into fucks, or whatever it is you want.
> Me: Well let me ask you this. What do you know about me?  Her: That's
ROOOAAAAAAARRRRRRR    I thought I was gonna die laughing. She cracks me up.
How could you help but love a girl that says shit like that? Classic case
of words going in one direction and actions going in another. Just trips me
out. I finally got her to give me a real birthtime so I could finish her chart.

93:  I told this one girlfriend of mine (who is a very accomplished
astrologer) that it's all bogus horse doodoo. We've done enough magickal
work together that she knows I'm not just yanking her chain, and I've done
my homework. But at the same time I've witnessed her put A LOT of energy
into relationships that aren't satisfying her even though the charts
indicate good things. Meanwhile OUR charts present all kinds of problems,
but I give her what she really needs and she keeps coming back! HA! A
classic case of words going in one direction and actions going in another.
It's all in the stars, baby!
> Don:  I have a question about First question: what
do you think about their material?

93:  I just delisted from that one. In fact, I delisted from everything but
this list; too many limiting beliefs and arbitrary features in most models
outside of SS, imo.


Here's my review of How to Get All The Girls You Want by Arthur Gordon:
This is the first book I ever purchased when I initially got into the
seduction hobby. When I first read it (about 2 years ago) I thought it has
some helpful insights about attitude and such, but did not have enough
I recently read the book again for the second time (after two years of
studying PUA/seduction stuff and practicing it in the real world), and now
I can that Mr. Gordon definitely is the real deal.
I admit that I have not actually seen him work his game in person, but his
book touches on many of the aspects of the seduction game that the
"experts" of today have refined.
For example, there are a few passages in this book that sound right out of
Major Mark's romantic hero description, only Gordon's book was written a
few years before Mark's "Scoring with Married Women" book (which is, pound
for pound, one of the two or three best seduction products out there).
His book is also akin to a version of Louis and Copeland's "How to Succeed
with Women" book without all the excess fat that the Louis/Copeland book
has. Gordon describes much of the self-improvement stuff that Louis and
Copeland talk about and gives good ways to implement them. (Don't get me
wrong, "How to Succeed with Women" is a great book, but it still has a lot
of filler in it).
Mr. Gordon also seems to have a natural understanding of frames even if he
does not talk about them as such.
One of the foundations of his strategy is what is referred to as "stealing
frames" these days. As you guys know, "stealing frames" is also the one of
the main weapons in the arsenal of one the few, true Masters in the online
seduction world, Rick H.
Anyway, the point I'm making is that "How to Get All the Girls You Want" is
probably the best book out there in terms of building a solid foundation
for the seduction game. It is by far the best book to start out with. I'm
mainly recommending it to guys who are starting out or guys who are so
overwhelmed with all the seduction information out there that they get
caught up in studying it all day but never go out and use it.
For you advanced guys out there that have game, this book with most likely
put in a different perspective some of the things that you are already
doing. It also, has some novel "big chunk" concepts that I have not seen
anywhere else. But overall, it is more of a (damn good) beginner's book.
For guys that want to learn Speed Seduction», it would be best to start out
with this book because it will build a solid foundation. Speed Seduction» is
great, but I think it is very difficult to learn if you are starting out
with little or no previous success with women.
So, for you computer programmers out there that want to learn every detail
about SS before doing any approaches, my recommendation is first give "How
to Get All the Girls You Want" a read. You can find it at

Clifford's Comments:  Arthur Gordon is a subscriber to these emails and
perhaps soon he'll be making some comments and sharing some of his
experience with us.


This weekend, Peter and I headed to Tokyo Bar on St. Laurent Boulevard in
Montreal to try out Mystery's Method.
Tokyo's yet another great spot on St.L, I started out by dancing and trying
pickups that way - found out it's just not my method. Chicks were giving me
annoyed looks and leaving - hell, if I'd been a chick, I would have been
annoyed at me too! :-)
Anyway, after initially stalling, Peter and I decided to just go for it,
and we spotted a 4-5 set at the bar. Peter explained the method, and he
opened on one of the girls.
I stood there like an idiot, feeling like a prop not knowing my exact role
in this method. I then turned to one of the chicks, and asked, "so how do
guys all know each other?"
Turns out she's a 20-year old fashion design student from Paris, and goes
to a local college here. Cute, charming face (HB 7-7.5), my height, OK
body, not great, but still exudes sensuality.
She says one of them is her roommate, the others are just friends. She
doesn't understand English that well, so I try asking fluff questions in
French. I get some responses, but most of the time she either couldn't hear
me because of the loudness, or she just didn't understand my bad French.
I'm thinking "yet another crash-and-burn," so I go balls-out and go into
the pattern of "you know that feeling you get just before you orgasm?" I'm
telling this to her in her ear, kinoing her all over her back, shoulders,
arms, and hair. Everything I'm saying to her is all sex talk - hell, she
doesn't understand anyway, so who cares? :-)
Then I talked about going down on her pussy and how good that feels when I
do it - all this in a seductive tone, rubbing and massaging her all over.
She withdrew from me and I thought, "shit, I blew it!" But she instead
grabbed my hand and commanded to me, "dancez!" Sure, why not? :-)
We're dancing for a while. Then I hold her waist and pull her towards me,
rubbing her arms, then feeling her up all over. I felt some initial
resistance so I carefully paced her physical movements, going only as far
as she wanted, to establish rapport. Soon we had a major tongue-down
session, making out like crazy on the dance floor.
Things are going *REAL* good like this for about 30-45 minutes. It's around
3 a.m. and her friends tell her to go. She tells me she has to go. I then
say: "Non, reste ici!" She insists she has to go. "OK, donne-moi ton
numero." I pull out my pen and she writes it on my hand.
The next day (yesterday) I call her saying I had a good time and I hope she
did too. I tell her to meet me that night. She tells me to pick her up at 9
I pick her up, and after a few minutes of making out in the car, we go back
to the motel and I'll just leave it at that :-)
All in all, a very interesting experience - and experiment. Content was
virtually irrelevant - it was all voice tonality, attitude, initiative, and

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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