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"Another example of being used to make the BF jealous"

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Another example of being used to make the BF jealous
8/21/02 5:25:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
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what this list is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are
on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that
you may be unfamiliar with.


Ross Jeffries:
> Cliff's Comments: Ross Jeffries Speed Seduction» finally made it to
Montreal this past weekend August 9, 10 & 11. Attendees flew in from as far
away as Australia to attend and there were some powerful changes effected
in the seminar on some of the participants. A couple of guys who were shy
and never previously able to approach women lost their hesitations and were
out doing what was next to impossible just days earlier.

Ross: Yes. This is one of the major "ups" I have on my alleged
"competition". I can take guys who are so totally shy, they can't even talk
with women (and some are so shy, they can't talk with ANY stranger, male or
female), run them few a couple of simple processes, and then they are out
meeting women with NO fear and total comfort, in a matter of MINUTES after
doing the processes.
Now, you can "be a man" and FORCE yourself to do things while in a fearful
state, or you can avail yourself of top technology. You can crawl across
the desert on your hands and knees, half-dead and half-dying from thirst,
or roar across on an air-conditioned, enclosed ATV, blasting your favorite
music on the sound-system, sipping cool drinks. YOUR choice.
> Dave Riker provided a linear guideline giving structure to Speed
Seduction, and some of the participants had a response to his training with
a major understanding breakthrough. Dr. Yates started the seminar days off
with his teaching of the power of words and gave presented rituals for
energy transformation. Local SS success story Tristan spoke about his years
of being put in the "friends" category and final escape from a very long
eriod of no sexual contact through SS, clearly making a
massive  improvement to his life.

Ross:  I loved having Tristan there to share his story. I think it is VERY
inspirational. He went from NO sex in 7 years to 10 full closes in 9
months. That is a MASSIVE improvement any way you slice it.
>Ross got off the plane last Wednesday and headed immediately to
Schwartz's for a fix of Montreal's famous smoked meat.

Ross:   Damn, I LOVE that place.
> He was in great form Friday morning and, as usual, out did himself from
the previous seminars I have been to of his. A review of this seminar
should be appearing soon on by Formhandle and
Tokyo-PUA who came in from Boston to attend.

Ross: I think they were quite pleasantly surprised, but let us wait to see.
> The good news is that Yates and Ross really liked Montreal and Yates was
pretty definite that they will be back with more seminars being held here.

Ross: I can promise we will be back.
> The rest of Ross's seminar schedule for 2002 can be found on the
Cliff's  List Website at,
and on Ross's at

Ross: Officially, our last seminar of the year will be in Palo Alto,
California, home to thousands of lovely Stanford University Co-eds. Sept
13, 14, 15.
> GameMaster:  I think the real difference with what's going on now is
that I am very comfortable with who I am and have sort of found some inner
high ground to work from. Hell Cliff, I'm at least 10 pounds heavier than
during stripperville days when I was trying SO hard. I can't leave the
house anymore without meeting somebody in some sort of seemingly fated type
way. It's crazy, just the zone. Can't explain it. And I've just been doing
rapport and the general skill set things from SS. Using a lot of hypnosis
over the phone which is just devastating. Alley has her first session
scheduled for tonite. She never responded to the patterns and made mention
of back when I was trying to "seduce me with all those canned speeches."
Tough chick : )

Ross:  Well, patterns are A LOT more than canned speeches. You're using the
old stuff.
> GameMaster: I don't know how it all came together, either. All I can
tell you is I'm brutally honest with these girls about what I do, I'm not
always available cause I'm not always available and that keeps the intrigue
meter pegged,

Ross: Being brutally honest is a big part of it. I'd skip the "brutality"
part and keep the total honesty. It is a huge challenge and sets the right
frame for the rest of it to work through.
> GameMaster:  I'm sensitive to but not always responsive to their needs,
there's some emotional detachment they have to deal with cause I've always
got one foot out the door,

Ross:  Being open and friendly in your deeds but reserved and somewhat
closed in your energy is VERY devastatingly attractive. I explicitly teach
how to do this.


GameMaster (continuing tales in the saga of a man "in the zone"):
Oh yeah...Beth. Well, it started the day she moved in. First day out of the
gate I took over a nice bottle of Merlot as a welcoming gift. Her BF was
there and I just barged in the house, opened the wine and asked where the
glasses were. She didn't have any so I came back to the house and returned
with 3 glasses, her BF was steaming when I returned and just walked in the
back door like I've done 1000 times like I owned the place. This is the
same house that we used for all those parties a few years back when I had
the girls here and the boys next door had 3 strippers living with them (fun
times). Anyway, Beth and I were drinking wine and chatting it up like old
friends while this fat fuck douchebag shot arrows through me that nite.
Beth told me the next day she was warned to "stay away from him!" hahahaha
Dude signed his own death warrant and didn't even know it. So, now I go to
work on her parents who were driving in from about 60 miles away to help
with decorating and the lawn and stuff. I took her mom to the mall one day
cause she was all the time getting lost ....her mother fucking loves me!!!!
And I took over the lawn mowing chores from her dad, and do a better job I
might add - all cause I'm such a sweet guy right? Well, Beth is working
these 80 hour shifts at the hospital and comes home too worn out to spend
any time fixing things up but she came home a few weeks ago and her yard
was immaculate (hey, I need the exercise and I'm working on my tan : ) and
she calls her fatfuck BF to thank him for mowing the grass and like an
idiot he says "I didn't do it!" She got the same story from Dad so I was
the only person left that may have been the knight in shining armor so she
comes knocking on the door. Well, I was ready for her and in the process of
remodeling my dining room so now I'm asking her opinion and shit about
drapes and we're touring around and she likes what she sees I guess.  So I
invite her to go shopping with me to help pick out new drapes for the
dining room. So here we go shopping now like a fuckin' married couple and
everything is all cool and we're flirting and shopping and flirting and know how that goes. She bought dinner that nite and told the
BF all about our adventure and of course she caught hell. Well, a few weeks
went by and I didn't have a chance to speak to her but I kept up my lawn
maintenance duties and she was noticing. Caught her out in the driveway the
other day as she was coming home from work and she was all smiles and
everything, gave me a big hug and thanked me for doing her such a big
favor.  I told her this "Beth, I don't mind doing this, you have your
career you need to concentrate on and I'm happy to help out for now. But I
do have this to have a boyfriend, right?   Well you need to
tell him to get off his fat ass and get his lazy butt over here and do this
for you, that's what bf's are for last I heard." Well, she was
floored....first stunned, then she just doubled over laughing. So now I'm
laughing too and I use my favorite line "I'm sorry, I have this problem
with......boldness." More laughter, hugging, hahahaha you know the scene.
Anyway, as we're talking I notice she's sporting some hardware on her left
hand that still has the price tag on it basically. "Beth, what is that on
your left hand?" as serious as I could be. So she tells me that her bf gave
it to her over the weekend. I just looked at her long and
disapprovingly....long silence and I said 'Beth, I'm going to tell you
something and I want you to take it the right way....from a man's
perspective, I'll bet green money that ring has more to do with me than it
does're a wonderful catch Beth and if I were in the position I'd
put a ring on your finger too but I'd do it for a different reason. You're
being controlled and this is just the icing on the cake. Just my objective
opinion as a friend." Well, she couldn't believe what I told her,
apparently her friend had the same attitude about the whole thing.
Furthermore "Beth you just graduated from med school, that is an awesome
achievement and you'll go haven't even started to live yet and
you're going to tie yourself down to some fat bastard that won't even take
out the garbage and whose apparent sole mission in life is to tell you what
you can and can't do! (I hate this guy.) Beth, your whole world is staring
you right in the face. In fact you can see your next adventure right in
front of you and all you have to do is reach out and touch it, and wait for
the magic to just wrap you up like two strong.....blah blah blah..." Cliff,
she was in such a trance by now I could have fucked her out on the lawn but
I was partially working it on her and partially steaming myself cause I
really do dislike this fat cocksucker and I seriously want him out of my
neighborhood. Anyway, I got off my soapbox and she's got this stunned look
on her face and finally breaks the silence with "What kind of cookies do
you like?" Still in serious mode "Am I gonna get cookies every time I
remind you what a jerk your bf is?" That one got me a hug...."Are you going
to be home tonite?" I said yeah, for a while and she tells me she's going
to the store to get stuff to make me cookies and she'll be over in an hour
or so. So a few hours later I'm on the phone with Dr. Alex Bender and we're
laughing our ass off at all the other shit going on and Beth knocks on the
door...she's got a basket of cookies for me a peck on the cheek
and takes off. Now Dr. Alex hears all this going on and I tell him the
story and we're laughing some more and the next thing I know the BF is
burning rubber out of her driveway....didn't know he was there. Anyway, I'm
postulating that he was pretty pissed about those Goddamn cookies and you
know me, I want to let things foment a few days before moving in but Dr.
hahaha Too funny. So I grabbed a bottle of wine and a corkscrew and two
antique silver goblets and went skipping over next door. Beth answered the
door, took one look at me...looked down at what was in my hands and started
laughing... "You handled this pretty good" she says. I couldn't agree more!
: ) She'd already decided she was going to fuck me when she saw me standing
in her doorway but I took her through the drill on the couch
anyway...modified blammo, dream lover, hot guy....several submodalities
later which I probably didn't have to do but I think it pays to sink the
hook when you have the chance....anyway, she's toast and we start
kissing...kiss kiss lick nibble kiss bite, you know the drill. So, this is
funny, I've got her straddling me now and we've got all this contact
working in my favor and she pulls back and says "I don't have any
protection." Well, she's a Goddamn doctor so I figured I'd better be
prepared so I tell her 'hang on" and I reach in my pocket and pull out
about 6 Magnum XL's and casually tossed them on the coffee table. Beth
looked at me and I've got this innocent choirboy look on my face and she
just busted out laughing. I'm rolling on the floor just thinking about it
cause it was sort of a funny moment. We were still laughing ten minutes
later as I'm gathering these little fun packs up in my left hand, her up in
my right hand and carried her into the kitchen "Lock the door"
......carried to the front door, the back door, more laughter kiss kiss
...I just had enough energy to get her to her bedroom where I didn't
encounter any resistance. Anyway, good thing we had the presence of mind to
lock the doors cause 30 minutes later the phone is ringing off the wall.
You could hear this guy raging on the answering machine...sounded a little
like me 4 years ago before I grew up. He must have called about 6-8 times
before we hear somebody banging on the door, then the kitchen door, scream
scream yell holler scream......I reached over and turned off the light
cause I knew the windows were next and sure enough ...bang bang on the
bedroom window....more hollering and screaming. Beth was freaking out so I
figured this was a good time to go down on her to sort of take her mind off worked. Anyway, fuckhead finally left, called 3-4 more times
and left more nasty messages. It was a little after 2 AM when Beth reminded
me she had to be at the hospital at 5:00 so I grabbed my boxers and limped
the 50 feet home with clothes and shoes in hand. Must have been a real
sight to the neighbors who used to be accustomed to such things going on
over here. That was Tuesday and I haven't seen her or talked to her so I
don't know what's going on.
hahahaha I'm evil. Here's the best part.....Beth let's all her friends
bring their dogs over and leave them in the back yard during work. Well
today I met her best friend who was leaving her dog off and this one is
fierce. Christina....sort of rolls of your tongue, don't it?   Christina is
a 9+ in anybody's book. Looks like a Libra and ain't wearing no hardware.
She said "I heard your were very charming." We're having dinner this
weekend. A cross between my ex and Renee Russo basically with an MD. I
should be killed.
More news. I sort of deconstructed the network the past few days. Gone are
Raya, Nancy (big time), Shannon (no class), and unfortunately Alley. I just
came to the conclusion there were too many core issues to deal with and
we've been at war for 3 days over Felicia and other things so I pulled the
plug. I talked to Felicia about this today and that girl just trips me out.
Best friend, my ass! She's got me pegged as Mr. Backup no doubt when her
cute little Gemini ass goes through the change. Twins remember, and she
hasn't experienced it yet. My first wife Debbie who was the coolest,
funniest, most beautiful woman on fucking planet Earth went through "the
change" after we had our first child and she became a nightmare cunt from
hell. Ironically, she's now changed back to being cool after she got the 6
kids she wanted. Really strange but a classic Gemini deal and Felicia is
aware enough to know it's coming....I'm just the start. She's gorgeous
though and I couldn't love her anymore than I do but I ain't getting no
sympathy on this Alley deal??
Oh man, gotta get back in the saddle I reckon but I do get sick of these
women real quick ya know? Oh yeah...Alley?? Well, I'm of the opinion that
what happened last Friday was more about her own redemption than it was
about me and her. I mean we have this powerful thing that is just almost
overwhelming and I think it's just too much for her to deal with right now.
We had made plans for me to go down to see her tomorrow but she called up
later with this flimsy story about how this husband of her friend that I
know was coming down with "papers" and so she couldn't see me. A while back
I would have screamed at her and called her a lying whore but I just said
"Ya'll have fun" and hung up the phone. Well, she went fucking
ballistic...I mean off the wall anger. Partially pissed cause she didn't
get the reaction she wanted and partially cause I think I get to her and
that doesn't make her comfortable. She's a control freak and I've found I
have more control when I don't exercise any. So now she's firing off these
angry emails designed to get me to call her a lying whore bitch cunt and I
reply with a calm vague message of tenderness. Finally after 4 days of not
speaking I get this long psych profile from her last nite...very revealing
but stuff I already knew. A major breakthrough that she can admit some of
these things to me but it isn't advancing my cause...yet. Anyway, I replied
with a very sweet message of nothing, making no assumptions or demands but
basically telling her I'm moving on with my life and see ya later. Well, no
reply from her and I'm just going to let this one sit for a while. I don't
know what's going on with this guy tomorrow and could care less. All I know
is he's married to one of Alley's friends, has helped her with $ when she
needed it, and he hates's mutual but I always tell her what a cool
guy I think he is even though I'd like to have him killed. She's one of
these people who prioritizes her life 1) around her kid (who I absolutely
love - great kid) 2) around her family 3) around her friends and ya better
not ever say anything bad about them and finally 4) around her primary
relationship that always takes a back seat to everything else going on. You
know me Cliff, I'll share the spotlight with her son but I ain't taking the
cleanup spot for nobody. That was my, friends, me. Never
again. Anyway, he's 11 years old and very cool WITH manners BTW which is
something you never see anymore but I can't help but think they are in
collusion together. Anyway, she expects the old me to beg her for time and
chase her ass and send flowers and shit and I ain't gonna fall back into
that game. Remember where that got me the last time?  Cynicism is a virtue
when it comes to dealing with women.  Live and learn right and I've learned
not to expect too much from women.

Cliff's Comment:  I have noticed one thing that runs through all these
women you've been seeing - not one of them is simple and down to earth. A
collection of strippers (Raya, Alley), game players (Susan H.), women who
will fairly quickly cheat on their boyfriends or husbands (Beth, Nancy),
etc. Now you know they say things like "like attracts like" and "takes one
to know one" so I conclude that you somewhere need this drama yourself to
get the adrenaline pumping (not to mention the testosterone). You remind me
of how David talks about when he went through a period where he was only
doing 2's & 3's (that's at a time, not their rating out of 10) and after
that he found it hard to get turned on to one woman at a time. I think a
"normal" woman would be too boring for you.

GameMaster: You are absolutely right about the kind of women I'm attracted
too. They are all very difficult and each one has their own "story" to
tell. I've had girlfriends that were less of a challenge that just couldn't
make the trip 'cause they were too easy. My obsession with problem children
started with Pam when she was 19. I've never experienced anything like the
constant sexual tension and thrill of that cosmic psychotic sick and fucked
up relationship in my life. I like it. Nancy is pretty fucking close. The
only difference is the absence of drugs but everything else is in sync with
the Pam Syndrome. I suppose ever settling down again with a "normal" chick
is pretty much out of the question. : )  Once a whore always a whore and
nothing worse than one that thinks they've reformed.

Cliff's Comments:  Hey, "the number one thing women lie about is how much
dick they are getting." I don't believe what they tell me. For all their
protestations of innocence or seeming quality control, they love bad boys,
adventure, excitement, doing naughty things... Nothing surprises me anymore.

GameMaster:  You are absolutely dead on with your comments about telling us
what they think we want to hear. You know I've found the same thing and my
ears perk up when I hear some chick say "Oh, I can't stand that guy" or
some shit like that. That's a pure admission that she's fucking him, or
planning to. Today's society is too permissive and too tolerant and saying
bad things about people ain't part of the new tolerance. It's a
subconscious shield they throw up to divert your attention but when I hear
that my first instinct is to check out. Had the same thing just happen to
me with Hether #1 3 weeks ago...remember the story about the guy that
brought the cop at 7:30AM? Well, she works for the guy and they have a kid
together but never married. I had been hearing for a few days all the
familiar refrains of "I hate him, he makes me sick, blah blah..."
And Cliff, I knew instantaneously I was in for a showdown with this guy but
the pussy was so good and there wasn't any emotional attachment so I
figured I'd ride it out as long as I could. When I left that morning it was
to protests of "I love you, don't leave....." Well guess what?  I haven't
heard from her.  Well, she did call once but I didn't return the call.
Another example of being used to make the bf jealous. That's OK by me,
every chick in town can use me to make anybody they want jealous cause I'm
only good for 2-3 weeks anyway. Maybe that's the ad I should put in the
paper "Handsome, cultured, intellectual with big dick and marathon tongue
seeks beautiful woman in long term committed relationship for purposes of
making boyfriend/husband insanely jealous for purposes of securing
diamonds, Jaguars, new home in prestige area, or beach front property.
Multi-orgasm training included at no charge." Whudya think? : )


A buddy of mine and I were curious if this stuff (milf hunter, bangbus,
mike's apartment) were legit. We had seen them using some stuff like pacing
reality and presuppositions in bangbus so we thought they might be
accomplished PUAs. We checked out the disclaimer on bangbus and when you
cut through all the legalese it basically says it's staged. I never checked
out the disclaimers for milf hunters or mike's apartment, but they are very
similar premises and I imagine they would be staged too. Once again, we all
learn the lesson that porn is not reality no matter how hard they try to
make it look that way.


What is DESPERATELY needed is some in-field video's! I realize that doing
that would present some real major league challenges BUT it damn well could
be done! Look at Candid Camera. You have to KNOW that many of the
participants of that show resisted being on tv or didn't allow it at all.
Still such a video of a MASTER PUA in action would give the very BEST
instruction imaginable! It would also be completely unique too and be more
valued than anything else! Whoever comes out with THAT will have struck a
veritable gold mine!

Cliff's Comments:  To those who are skeptical that this can be done and
then secure a release from the woman so that the film can be used, I have
two remarks to make.  Firstly, someone should do 10-15 of them and see if
they can get the releases signed after.  Until you try, you don't really
know.  The other idea (mentioned by Dave Riker when he was here) is that it
wouldn't be too difficult to alter or block the faces (and disguise the
voices) of the women using today's computer technology so you wouldn't
really need releases.  I think these are going to done soon by someone, and
it will be very interesting to watch.


Marco (more info on setting up a Lair from the head of the NYC lair):
At every roundtable, one member will be assigned the role of moderator. At
anytime, should the moderator raise his hand, all members are required to
stop speaking - no exceptions! It is important that everyone have their
opportunity to speak and that is why we place strong emphasis on moderating
the way time is being used by the group.
Everyone gets 6 minutes to present a case, a question, no more. Someone
will be assigned as timekeeper.  The first sentence must summarize the
situation or scenario, followed by a one-sentence question. If you can't
adhere to those guidelines, you don't deserve the time and resources of the
members at the meeting.
We have a very large group, representing an enormous amount of resources at
your disposal. If you show respect for their time, they will be more
inclined to return the favor.

If you are looking for structure, it goes something like this:
* announcements
* collection of payment for room reservation
* attendance taken (paper passed around)
* review of roundtable guidelines (future paces meeting)
* introduction of attendees present
* final announcements (i.e. future meetings)/requests/feedback


Textbook SS
On a recent flight, the airline goofed and booked me into the same seat as
a gorgeous Capitol Hill lawyer. The flight attendant straightens it out and
she takes the seat next to me. Turns out we were both in traffic accidents
prior to the flight... so I say, "have you ever had an experience where you
had everything totally in common with someone?" and she smiles. So she
yammers on for a while and I just continue with the, "me too... boy, we
*really* do have a lot in common" while throwing in some Ross Jeffries'
classic connection patternery for kickers.
This goes on for a while... then finally, I say, "What would it be like if
you were to picture us 10 years from now still being so comfortable with
each other, and looking back at today as being the start of it?" This gets
her to talking about sex and I oblige to follow her lead (natch) with
arousal patterns. Then, change directions and talk about her hopes and
dreams, etc. and how those are linked to me... textbook SS. I talk about
the little girl inside of her who believed in romance and she says, "I need
to find her again."
So I continue on that path with things like, "Those things that you need to
find are buried deep inside of you... inside of a box that is locked. And
no one, no man you've ever met before could go inside... but as you picture
me holding a key... an oiled key that slides slowly... slo-o-owly inside...
and you feel the building anticipation as it goes deeper... and deeper
inside... to the point where the box begins to come alive with pulsating
electricity. And as the key turns the lock quivers... then suddenly opens
and you look inside and you find me there centering you on what you truly
have the potential to become."
She gets really excited and I go back to fluff for a while and plant more
time bombs and then more fluff and -- long story short -- do a number close.
I mention that as soon as the plane lands I'm going to enjoy a great meal
(she mentioned earlier she was hungry) but she didn't pick up on that and I
didn't push it. As we exited she says, "Send me an e-mail."


This is Rod, from the Mindlist. I haven't been active there for over a year
now, but I wanted to shout out and see if anyone on this list is living in
Western New York. I moved to Buffalo not too long ago; my ex-girlfriend
skipped town and now I'm looking for competent wingmen to join me in the
search for her replacement. If anyone in the Buffalo/WNY area wants to get
together and see what we can unearth in this town, drop me an e-mail to
sta***8@ho***.com[ ? ] and we can meet for drinks or some such thing.


> Mark B: I have created a simple two stage seduction process for myself.
The first is the approach where I see the woman, walk up to her and then
ask her to come and have dinner with me or a drink or go for a walk or a
coffee, whatever. Then when I am with her I do not talk about sex, fucking,
blowjobs, kissing or any of such sorts but just let her talk about whatever
she wants keeping in mind to not let her get away with anything unruly. The
second part of the seduction involves a lot touching - stroking her hand,
rubbing her forearm, rubbing her shoulders and her lower back. Then when I
feel like it I just kiss her neck and then her cheek and then her lips. If
she lets me and we continue then I do not stop and then take her to the
bedroom where I fuck her. I found that the more I talk about sex or try to
qualify her extent of her sexuality then the lesser the odds of actually
fucking her.

Ovulu: Mark B, it appears your have a three prong attack rather than a two
stage process:
> Stage #1: The first is the approach where I see the woman, walk up to
her and then ask her to come and have dinner with me or a drink or go for a
walk or a coffee, whatever.

Ovulu: May I ask what are the conditions and terms for this type of walk up?
> Stage #2: Then when I am with her I do not talk about sex, fucking,
blowjobs, kissing or any of such sorts but just let her talk about whatever
she wants keeping in mind to not let her get away with anything unruly.

Ovulu: Specifically, what does this mean..."but just let her talk about
whatever she wants keeping in mind to not let her get away with anything
unruly". How are you controlling her banter for her to elicit conversation
she wants?

Ovulu: Stage #3: I understand the final process of rocking her bowels in
the bedroom on the terms you suggest. However, do explain the nuts and
bolts of stages 1 & 2.


Love ( It's a 200+ page book and 2 audios with
what to say & what not to say, and supposedly teaches you how to get women
to SEDUCE YOU. It's $99.00.

Jonathan: I borrowed it from a friend and couldn't finish it. A lot of
basic stuff I'd already gotten from Double Your Dating», some stuff was
rather afc, and generally aimed more at finding a ltr rather than becoming
a pua. The worst part was the structure; not logically organized by topics,
but presented as a dictionary so the first entry/chapter might be
'assertiveness' and the next 'busting balls' without transitions. This
organizational style made it difficult to get a strong feeling for the
approach as a whole.


This is an area that doesn't get discussed much but should.
Some basic rules of winging:
1) Who ever opens a set gets to pick his target. It's best to point out who
it is so the wing can know before the approach, but otherwise assume it's
the hottest chick (yes, that's a judgment call).
2) Don't steal someone's target. If someone is having success with a
target, but you know you could get her too, just file that away for your
ego. If someone is negging the target by ignoring her and working the set,
don't come in and chat her up. IT'S HIS TARGET.
2b) Corollary to 5: Sometimes targets change based on personality likes of
the lead or the natural flow of the PU dictates it (I.E. if there are two
hotties and they pick the opposite PU's than planned. So be it.
2c) If a chick is just plain into the wing, the wing should wait for the
lead to acquiesce. The beauty of this is that by playing hard to get, you
only strengthen her interest.
3) Follow the lead's lead. For example, if lead goes in with some hard core
SS, don't go GM unless he expects it. Don't blow up the set.
4) The lead and wing should never walk on each other's routines. Unless you
are SURE his routine is about to bomb, let him run it out.
5) When entering someone's set for any reason (wing, social proof etc),
smile and wait for a break to speak. Then do so with energy and something
interesting that doesn't fuck up the set. Don't albatross the lead (I think
I just came up with a new term - if you guys don't like this one, come up
with one for when a guy comes into your set and just sucks the energy out
by being intrusive/boring/low energy). If you are about to albatross the
set, leave. Note: if you just sit there and attentively listen and provide
positive feedback to the lead's stories, you are unlikely to albatross the
set, but even that is skill. An appropriate "Oh yeah, that's a great story,
is a fine way to enter a set."
6) Interact. You two are a team. Agree and egg-on the lead. By being
interested in the story yourself, you lend credence to the set by being
interested in him. Conversely, the lead should involve the wing with simple
questions. "Should I tell the story about Badboy?"... "You know how crazy
Getsome is right?"... These are opportunities to amp up the state of
everyone being involved and having fun.
7) Always use compliments to each other. The lead should do this
particularly when the wing enters the set. Wing can do it also when the
lead turns away for a second or in the flow of the conversation. Kind of
like the accomplishment opener.
8a) The Wing should help the lead isolate the target by slowly engaging the
rest of the group in conversation. This may mean jumping on a grenade, or
entertaining a group of 5 guys. It can also mean sarging your own in a
group of hotties. Which brings us to:
8b) If there are two or more targets the wing can isolate his target. In a
two set, this works perfectly. If there are 3 people, it can be difficult
as it's hard to leave one person hanging, but it's much easier than trying
to separate one in a two set. Anything more than that just use normal group

Note: that this can all be tricky and going with the flow is important.
These are general isolation rules, but groups always have their own
dynamics to manage.

Note: if you and your wing tend run the same material you need to keep the
girls far enough away so that they don't overhear the same things being
said over and over.

9) If a lead bombs, it's open season on the target. However, if he only
disengages, you should work out if plans to reopen and not just assume it's
open season. He may be doing a takeaway, etc.
10) Don't try to outshine the lead. Unless you are leagues ahead of the
lead and you are teaching them, it's their show until you start to
separate. Once you have split into groups, do your thing. If you wanted to
lead, you should have opened yourself.
The only way to truly get good at winging is to wing a lot, and everyone is
different, so you may need practice with that specific PUA. And, of course,
there are exceptions to the rules. The most obvious being a strategy that
you have worked out ahead of time. That said, the above is a very good
general set of rules.


Maximillian Hell:
>I'm writing a list of all the shittiest questions women ask, and using
them as opportunities to display strong character, and build more intrigue.
Anyone here got any more questions from women that they hate?

Maximillian Hell:  Not a question but a declaration: "I am waiting for my
friend(s)," spoken in a haughty tone as if somehow her waiting status
precludes the convo from going any further. I've twice received this line
upon my initial approach. I guess some sort of neg is called for: "YOU have
friends?" But there must be something better than that--typically the
target appears hostile in that circumstance.


What I would like to see is a discussion on Sex from an NLP perspective.
The first are beliefs about SEX and SEXUALITY.
The second are Skills as a Lover. The third are Exercises to Accelerate the
getting of the skills. The main goal is LIVING SEXUAL ECSTASY. Prolonging
the sex act to live one or two hours of sex that are responsive, mentally
focused, emotionally committed, and very pleasurable.

As such, I would like to ask the list for info on being a better lover,
being a multi-orgasmic man, and other NLP approaches to improving your
skills as a lover.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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