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The Tao of Dating: Dating as a martial art
9/4/02 5:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time

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Cliff's List Website
http://www.cliffslist.com/

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of
what this list is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are
on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that
you may be unfamiliar with.

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GameMaster:
Clifford, I have had my lawyers draft this for me...to be inserted at the
beginning of my posts. Thankee. : )
Disclaimer: This story is based on real events, but may not tell the entire
story. So that if you read that I manipulated some poor girl, or punched
somebody out, then you need to understand that they deserved it. And if you
elect to take a self righteous moralistic attitude in opposition of the
things I do then you are welcome to take that up directly with me to
entertain the full story, or you can go fuck off. Either way is good for
me. My generation didn't have Nintendo and being an anachronism gets me
laid. And that, my friends, is what I thought this was all about.
> GameMaster: One of the guys in there made the mistake of calling me a
communist one nite. He got decked, and I got suspended from the bar for a
month. No biggie. Funny huh?
> Ross: Dude, if you hit someone because they called you a name, you ought
to be in jail. If you did that to me, I'd move heaven and earth to see you
prosecuted, behind bars and then I'd sue you civilly too. Jesus....so
someone offends you and you think you have the right to physically violate
their body? What kind of world-view..what kind of way to walk is that? I
enjoy what you do with these chicks, but the violence at the drop of a word
bugs me..honestly folks who walk through the world like that need to be
behind bars and stay there for as long as they intend to live this way.
What if someone said something about religion you disagreed with? Would you
kick them in the nuts? Keerist.....

GameMaster: Ross A) I admire what you've done B) I appreciate you being the
impetus for some necessary changes I needed to make in my life C) A lot of
what I send up to Clifford are my own personal journal entries for future
reference if I ever figure out how to make some money off of the crazy shit
that happens to me on a daily basis D) I haven't explained all the
circumstances of that dynamic, but decking a guy that crossed over into
forbidden sensitive territory just seemed like the most natural
thing....and I don't regret it. I don't advocate or encourage what you
refer to as a "violation of their body."

And what the fuck is a Keerist?

To lapse back into something relevant to this list, I think my "world view"
has a lot to do with my success and many of the girls have spontaneously
offered to me that I make them feel "Safe." I'm not a violent person, but
the difference is that I call people on their shit.

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Ross:
> GameMaster Responds:  A) I don't care. I made a lot of noise on the SS
board several years ago about guys that were fucking married women but I've
sort of changed my policy there. Sorry Ross.
B) Women DO NOT FEEL GUILT.  They are cold, guiltless, remorseless,
frozen-hearted creatures and the last thing anybody needs to worry about is
hurting their feelings. I know that may sound cold but that's pretty much
how things are. Women have an agenda, you should also have an agenda. Cause
I'll tell you, brother, when you're gone..... you are just a distant memory
to her, if at all.

Ross:  Whoa...personally, if I had that view of 50% of the world I would
check out now and find another reality..just drop this body and incarnate
somewhere else.

GameMaster: Didn't think you believed in that sort of thing. Once again,
you're missing the point. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but
women will ultimately be women, so what level of expectation do you think I
should afford them? Women have an agenda....you are free to argue that
point, which was my point to begin with, and not my "view." Only somebody
with a Madonna Complex would take offense at what I said.

Ross: Hey...PEOPLE (male and female) sometimes fuck OTHER people (male and
female) over. People can also be loyal, kind, affectionate, appreciative.

It sounds like that ONE woman you married really tore you badly in two, and
then you made the mistake of taking on HER kill-eat-consume the other of
the world. In other words, she is now running around inside of you, looking
at the world through YOUR eyes, and playing the game as a male now
consuming females.

GameMaster:  No argument on the loyal, kind, etc. As long as it suits their
agenda!  I'm not budging off that. Your other comments are as out of line
as they are off target.

Ross: Ultimately, people who cut themselves off of all possibility of
intimacy, kindness, giving and trust will either somatize the conflict,
look for more dangerous situations to cover or compensate for the emotional
needs not being met, or they will use LOTS of drugs to kill the pain.
(Booze IS a drug).

GameMaster:  I suppose the implication is that I'm an alcoholic drug
abuser, incapable of balancing a normal relationship, only get off on
hurting people, and I'm running around with a chip on my shoulder spoiling
for a fight at the drop of a hat. Well, come to think of it...
Actually, you are way off base again, Friar Jeffries. Actually, I am more
than capable of experiencing all these things you would deny me with your
patented but flawed instant profiling.  In fact, I value all these thing in
a relationship but honor sort of stands above all else. I'm not going to
get into the depth of what that means to me but women that don't honor the
relationship are invited to take a hike. Is that mean? Does that make me a
bad person? Does that offend your sensibilities and sense of fair play? My
world, my rules. Why the hell should it be any other way?

Ross: In other words, I understand attracting through being powerful,
making no excuses, but just plain not caring (and even enjoying) whom you
hurt because you believe the other to be irredeemably evil by nature is a
way to spiritual death and self-destruction, my man.

GameMaster: Where is this nonsense coming from about enjoying hurting
people? To bring you up to speed with that poor girl in Florida that you
complained I was "manipulating" and driving insane, I just spent a long and
very intimate weekend with her and we are enjoying a very close, and yes
loving relationship. I'm sorry if you didn't connect with my tactics but
ironically (there's that word again) I did view her as long term, but as a
project, and that was the only way to handle her. I promise you that you
won't get any complaints from Nancy.

Ross: Look....there are "sweet-heart" swindlers. Guys who take advantage of
lonely ladies with little looks but lots of cash..they clean these ladies
out for everything they have and head for the hills. Yet it would NOT be
accurate to say ALL or even MOST men do this kind of thing.

Yet what the thinker thinks, the prover proves...and thus you WILL create
and find women who indeed WOULD tear you to bits if you do not tear them first.

You are a powerful creature..a man with a focused mind. I am never
suggesting ever again letting yourself be used, but to be run by such rage
is not good, not good, not good and above all is making the woman who hurt
you most the architect of your range of emotions.

GameMaster:  Uh, thanks....I think. I honestly don't know how you mistake
my indifference for rage. And it's only that indifference and my sincere
passion for things that are important to me that give me an edge. Not one
of my girls has ever seen me angry, blow up, react, or verbally abuse them
in anyway. That, my man, is a control mechanism, and it's a function of
self control as well. Shoot me.
> Ross:  I know a SUPER-hot work-out model etc who is married, HIGHLY
attracted to me, and also married to a VERY jealous martial-artist husband.
Believe me I'd love to dip into the well, but in this case, something tells
me she would use it in the next fight with him and he WOULD kill me. Sorry
if you've covered this..I think it can be hard to tell when to go for the
gold and when to leave it in the mine.Comments?
>  GameMaster: I ran into his girl a few months later and we sort of had
this thing for a while but it's like David preaches....you have to be
relentless. I couldn't articulate these things until Cliff broke it down
for me but that's what it comes to. I don't really see anything in the way
of my target anymore, just the target. I'd give anything if I was ten years
younger. All you motherfuckers would be in trouble.

Ross:  I think David would shudder at the view that women are soul-less
creatures without guilt or conscience. I don't THINK that is how he
postulates about women. I think, ultimately, he likes and enjoys them...as
do I, MOST of the time. I find  women frustrating and confusing and
annoying as hell at times, but MOST are not evil...maybe I am beyond hope here.

GameMaster:  Look, it works for me. I don't hate women, I love women... ask
anybody I know. The difference is that I don't allow myself to be shocked
by the things they do, and they are capable of anything. Anybody want to
argue that point? I will hereforeverafter print in italics the content of
these messages that are offered in jest. The fact is that women are NOT the
saintly creatures being defended here...maybe my personal view is extreme
(and I'll be the first to admit that) but they are not worthy of the other
extreme either. Any argument there?
> GameMaster: Anyway, last nite was just one of those days where three
beers and I was just hammered....usually it's 18.

Ross: There's a relationship to the drinking problem and the view of the
other as utterly evil and incapable of anything but betrayal.....

GameMaster:  OK, that one should have gone in italics. It's a joke, truth
is I have a low tolerance and therefore I ration the consumption when the
mood strikes. However, I will defend someone's right to go out and drink 18
fucking beers if they want to as long as they take a cab home. Off target
and OT again! : )
> Mystery: So let's get this straight. You are challenging the fact that
people feel fear about doing something important that they've never done
before?

Ross:  MOST people, without training, WILL feel fear. What I am saying is,
with training, a person need NOT feel fear when approaching another person
they find attractive. They can feel excited, happy, calm, but they do NOT
have to feel fear. And they need not use "hypnosis" to get to this state
either.
I respect you have a different way of getting where you want to go. I've
found a tech that licks fear and replaces it with a calm, alert, fun-filled
state. I don't use hypnosis to get people there. And absolutely, approaches
need to be practiced multiple times to build approach skills - mental
rehearsal in a strong state will help the ACTUAL approach but it is not a
SUBSTITUTE for the real approach.
It's a fact, scientifically studied, that mentally rehearsing basketball
shots ALONG WITH actual practice improves performance MORE than just actual
practice. BOTH, working together, are best approach.
If you have a way of doing things that has worked for you, I say fine.
There may be easier ways that get guys up to speed so they can then DO and
PRACTICE in the real world the approaches you put forward as being effective.
By the way, I hung out with a few guys and watched the Ricki Lake opener.
It got girls talking for a few minutes, but after that things petered out
quickly. I would think a laughing, joking, more "life of the party"
approach would work better...there was a drunk guy in his late-40's to
early 50's who looked like a regular and he had 4-5 hotties toasting with
him. I don't know if he got anywhere with them...I think they were just
getting drunk with him, but he certainly had their attention.
> Ross: I agree with all of this. Again, let's see Mys keep on clubbing
when he is 43, 44, 45 years old. And let's glue my face onto his and see
how he does RIGHT NOW!
> Mystery: Let's not confuse CLUBS with PUBLIC GATHERINGS. Go where the
women are plentiful.

Ross: I like that. Here's a chance for useful dialogue: what are your
favorite public gatherings that aren't clubs or bars? Request for 411, not
an attack or challenge.
>> Ross: Anyone who tells you what is too good to be true is also telling
you THEY are the authority on what is true and what isn't. And they are
also saying that things HAVE to be difficult. None of this is science.
> Mystery: And those saying "that isn't science" aren't selling science
themselves. Now with all that said and done, let's get back to business.
For all the psycho-babble that's been put forth in this circus debate ...
gentlemen, if you are afraid to approach women ... I understand. I'm there
with you. It's OK to be scared. But fear is not an EXCUSE not to approach.
Smile big and approach anyways. AGAIN and AGAIN. "Repetition is the mother
of skill." ~ Anthony Robbins.

Ross:  If you repeat a pattern with the SAME emotions attached, you will
merely reinforce the emotion. Instead, why not get rapport with the
unconscious and help it to understand there is no REAL danger, then
re-align and re-channel the energies that need to be there? Create the
state you want to act from, THEN ACT AND PRACTICE!
> Mystery: I have used BF blasters for many years and do believe perform
them quite well ... autonomously. AND ... looking back at all of those
scenarios, I notice a very important finding: THEY DON'T WORK!!!!!!

Ross: Maybe you don't have the personality to condition a woman to like
you; so she either is interested right away or isn't.  I think the BF thing
comes up for lots of different reasons and lots of different times,
depending emotionally and mentally what is going on with the girl at the time.
23 year old Cambria was STRAIGHT up about having a boyfriend (with whom she
was hooked into financially, but found sexually boring). She hung out with
me on the pretense I was going to help her with her cat allergy (which I
actually did) and we still wound up getting together twice. She introduced
me to her boyfriend, and yet got with me twice anyway. I didn't have to do
any blaster...I just offered her something and tested to see if she wanted
more.
I've also used versions where the girl called me 3 weeks later and told me
that she had decided the guy WASN'T with her in the way she wanted him to
be and she would like to go out with me. This was with someone with whom I
made my intent very clear; I told her if she wasn't with someone who was
with her in the way she wanted him to be, maybe we owed to each other to
hang out/talk. She had just started seeing him at the time and brought him
up within the first few minutes of talking.
Yet another girl, Christine, finally brought up the BF the third time we
hung out...this time when she came over to my house, and balked me when I
tried to close her. It turns out he is leaving for Australia for 6 months
and she is very conflicted over her feelings and what he and she might be
doing with other people.
So my point is, you never know where or when a "BF" may come up. Sometimes
you are right; it means "fuck off - I have no interest and never will".
Sometimes they are just being honest and are waiting for the lead from you
as to whether it is a big deal killer or not and YOUR response could push
it either way.
The truth is you just don't know at first what it means. Sometimes BF
"ignorers" work; not putting him down overtly but just acting like it
doesn't matter or challenging her to think about it a different way on her
own. The only solution is to stay alert, aggressive, be ready for an
opportunity and challenge her thinking in a vague way, without overtly
attacking HIM.
> Mystery:  That's right. BF blasters SOUND like they should work, but
they never really helped me GET THE GIRL. Sure I would minimize the "I have
a BF" line but wouldn't be rewarded with success. They are FUN to say but
not REWARDING. Truth is, if a girl LIKES you and has a BF, she will NOT
MENTION IT ... well, at least not til she's in bed with you and starts to
feel guilt. If she says she has a BF, know that you came on too strong.
That is HER way of saying NO THANKS. I know this because I've been hit on
by girls I didn't want. So I'd say I had a GF. And then they would try to
weasel around it. It was ... pathetic. As soon as she says she has a BF,
the gig is up. No bother HIDING your interest with "oh isn't that cute, you
thought I liked you." These are THIN LIES.

Ross:  Mys, it is also a thin lie to say that your friend got invited to be
on Rikki Lake or that your friend found some kind of weird spell in his house.
They are maneuvers that sometimes work and sometimes don't. Don't get all
moralistic on us, my man.
I say again, sometimes the BF is brought up as an auto-pilot response and
she will take her lead from how YOU treat it.  The trick is to calibrate
the other person and read the non-verbals as best you can.
> Mystery: Here is an exercise: imagine a 6 hits on you and is persistent.
What would you say to get out of it? Put yourself > THERE in your mind for
a good 10 minutes. You will learn A LOT. BF blasters DO NOT WORK. And this
is coming from ME! Sometimes the best way to win is NOT to play. And that
is the case with this BF obstacle. Comments?
> Cliff's Comments: My latest explorations in this area (which, frankly
comes up SO often that I think we do need to have effective strategies to
maximize whatever potential may lie in the situation) have me saying to
them something like "you know, it's funny about relationships but in my
experience people will often tell you that they have something going on but
if you ask a few more questions and go a little deeper, you frequently find
out that there are problems there, that the person isn't really happy, and
that sometimes it's something they've told you more to get it off their
chest and to put the blame on you if something should happen after." I
can't say I've closed anyone using this yet, but the responses definitely
indicate that I seem to be on a worthwhile track.

Ross:  I'm going to start trying this one, "That's ok. I assume you're
smart enough and strong enough to make your own choices..for reasons that
are none of my business OR his...so...what was the first signal you got on
the inside...the first recognition you had..blah blah blah (SRT for those
who know my stuff).
I've not used this one yet, but I like the notion of talking about
"choices" without specifying which ones and then saying for reasons that
are none of MY business OR his.
This could lead to a discussion of what the motives and reasons are for
choosing someone...a ltr, a fuck, a way to spice up an existing
relationship......gosh, it almost makes me WISH the "BF" is brought up
right away.

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Dr. Alex Bender:
The Tao of Dating: Dating as a martial art, Gentlemen. Lately I've been
thinking that the game of dating and seduction is a lot like a martial art.
Am I saying that, well, dating is a totally adversarial situation, yeah,
that's it, it really is WAR man, right on? Umm, no. I'd like to think it's
a little subtler than that. The idea operates on two levels. Allow me to
explain. In a combat situation, events often unfold so fast that there is
no time for considered thought, only for reflex. If you have trained in
reflexes that will parry the attack and disable your opponent, then you're
served well. However, if you didn't have the right combination of in-block,
arm-twist, groin-kick and flip-sucka-over-back-and-give-noogie practiced
and ready, then there is no way in hell you will be able to come up with
that in a face-to-face combat situation. I don't care who you are -- there
will be too much adrenaline and too little time. In a similar vein, when
you are chatting up the hot mama of your dreams -- who is armed with sharp
wit, discerning eye and gaggle of friends -- you have to be prepared. Let's
say things are going well. You've got great rapport going, and clearly
you're enjoying each other's conversation. Suddenly, she comes up with "So,
do you have a girlfriend?" Ah, a loaded question. A test. Well, do you? If
you say you do, won't she just lose interest? OK -- so you *don't*? What,
are you desperate then? Ahhh, a million scenarios swirl in your head, you
hesitate and stammer something weakly. And whatever it was you stammered
probably didn't do you any good. On the other hand, what if upon her asking
the dreaded question, you smile slyly and respond, "My, isn't that a little
personal?" Or, "No, she got tired of climbing the walls of the monastery to
tryst with me in the refectory." Or my personal favorite, "Maybe." Or, "No
more than six at any given time, but I'm still accepting applications.
Would you like one?" Ah, suddenly the tables are turned, and you have
turned disadvantage into advantage. You've even gotten her laughing a
little bit if you did it right.
You see, the snappy comeback will only be there if you've thought about it
before and rehearsed the response that optimizes your results. Look, buddy
-- you're not going to go into a hardcore job interview thinking "I'm just
going to be myself", right? If you do, chances are you'll never land a job
and be eating Pop-Tarts for dinner for the rest of your natural existence.
What you *will* do is anticipate all the common interview questions Mr.
Bossguy will ask -- tell me about your last job, what's the accomplishment
you're most proud of, why do you enjoy goat husbandry, etc. etc. -- and
have answers that will convey the message *you* want to convey.
Make sense?
OK, now we're back at Bar X, chatting up Ms. Shirley Feintusch. "What do
you do for a living?" "Where are you from?" All these seemingly innocuous
questions she lobs at you. Mid-conversation, her friends start getting
antsy and want to leave for another bar. Do you follow? Do you stay? Do you
wait to be invited? Do you ask for her number right then? Or:
mid-conversation, just as things are getting so deep, so personal, some
chump comes along, grabs her hand and says, "Shirley! Have a drink with me
and Mr. Letcherus, the owner of the club." Ooooh, do you just sit there
like a deer caught in headlights, letting this simian inflict a verbal
orchidectomy on you? Or do you stand your ground? How? Do you do it
combatively? Suavely? How? Ahhh, the options... The point is, unless you've
thought of these scenarios (or experienced them) beforehand and trained in
useful responses, they will not be available to you in a face-to-face
situation when things are unfolding rapidly (this is why email is so great
-- more on that later, too). So practice, rehearse, be prepared -- and be
effective.
The second reason why these dating skills are like a martial art is even
more subtle than the first. Let me ask you this: in a combat situation, how
do you assess your opponent? Most people would go by size -- generally
you'll take him if he seems smaller than you, and let him have your
girlfriend and car keys if he's a 400 lb gorilla. However, this calculus
leaves out one crucial element: SKILL. Remember the scene in Karate Kid
where Mr Miyagi took ten high-school bullies and made them rue the day they
were born? OK, yeah, so it's a movie, but you'd still be an idiot to take
on any five-foot tall martial arts expert just because he's smaller than
you. The point is that the martial arts master magnifies his abilities far
beyond what appearances would imply, rendering seeming advantages like size
and brute strength less consequential.
Awright, Mr. McZen Master, where are you going with this, you ask?
Well, in the dating world, the analogs to size and brute strength are those
so-called advantages men think they must possess to become successful with
women: money, GQ-model looks, fame, fortune, kielbasa-sized appendage,
power, etc. And my friend, today I am here to tell you: those are nice
things to have, but you don't need them to have absolutely phenomenal
success with women. What you do need is skill -- and your living room is
not where you acquire them. My seminar, The Tao of Dating, brings Eastern
philosophy and Western science to serve you in developing and practicing
those skills. You can get a better sense of where it all comes from and
where it's going from the articles on www.TaoOfDating.com, especially the
one entitled "The Basic Skill Set." Check it out, and see you in Boston.

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DB:
>Gamemaster: Women DO NOT FEEL GUILT. They are cold, guiltless,
remorseless, frozen-hearted creatures and the last thing anybody needs to
worry about is hurting their feelings. I know that may sound cold but
that's pretty much how things are. Women have an agenda, you should also
have an agenda. Cause I'll tell you, brother, when you're gone..... you are
just a distant memory to her, if at all.

DB: This is something that men lose sight of or are just not aware of, the
agenda that women have and the absolute ruthlessness at which they will go
if they want.  Having been witness to a fair amount of divorces in my time,
I know how nasty things can get.. HB's especially are spoiled in the power
that society and AFC's bestow on them, and by God, they can abuse it..
> Ross:..so again, what is your intuition that tells you these women are
ready for the affair WITHOUT them using it as ammo against a husband?

DB: I wish I had the answer to this one.  A while ago I posted a PU attempt
where I got a woman's number and when I called the cell, the "husband"
answered.  At any rate, I was at some bar last week and as I was leaving I
notice this gal that looked familiar.  I said, "Hello  are you so and
so?"  She said yes.  "Do you remember me?" She said yes.  "Well, I talked
to your husband.  She goes "what are you talking about?"  I said "I am
nobody's pawn" and then left the bar.  By the way, I looked at her hand and
she had no ring on.  Whatever is going on, it sounds screwy...

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The following is a comment a friend of mine received by email from a woman
he met (I have been asking him to elaborate on what has been behind the
great success he's been having with women since his divorce):

Well I met this guy online see and everything he wrote made me laugh and
then he sent me this really adorable picture with this other really
adorable Greek restaurateur-friend and then he drove all the way down here
and had the best butt and he kept touching me and he talked about his
family and friends and work in such a passionate way and he kept touching
me and it was brilliant really how he made me stop feeling nervous and
found out all sorts of things about me I haven't shared with anyone else
and I was sore for three days.

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Dwacon ("I made magic once.  Now the sofa is gone" http://www.dwacon.com):
> Mark B.: There are two shows called Blind Date and the 5th Wheel.

Dwacon: There is another that I caught while on business travel -- I think
it was called Shipmates or something like that.  Can't remember.

The premise had a man and woman paired up and placed on a cruise ship and
they are videoed for three days.  From what I saw it is always an HB
beeyotch paired with an AFC nerd who goes down in flames each episode,
although I've only been exposed to two shows.  Anybody else seen that one?

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Horn Dog:
Let me say something in Ross's defense, if I may, though I have only read
his first book (yes, I know, he has much, much more, but even his first
book has improved me LIGHT YEARS beyond what I had been doing).  When I
read it I was already familiar with NLP and Ericksonian technique, and
Ross's applications just turned on a lightbulb in my head.  (Well dammit! I
said to myself. Why didn't I think of that?).

For years I had actually been trying the Mystery way (i.e. get off the
bench, get in the game, and keep swinging until you hit the ball).  Problem
is, that just didn't work for me.  It bagged me a hell of a lot of 5's, but
that was it.  I was STILL, after all of that, terrified of HB'S.  When I
read about Ross's confidence techniques and his whole approach to reframing
the way we look at women,  I took what he said, applied the NLP I knew, and
rebuilt myself mentally from the ground up.

Result? I later found myself approaching a new class of women, doing/saying
outrageously fun and sexy things to/with them, and bagging a lot of 8's and
9's.  All of that from the reframing ideas in his first book.  The reason
why I haven't gotten the rest of his courses (I should, really...) is that
so far I've gotten more than I can handle.  Honest Abe, this is not a
plug.  Mystery has provided me many gems on this list, as well.  But the
bottom line for me on the confidence issue is Ross's reframing.  Keep up
the good work guys...

Cliff's Comment:  I think your understanding of Mystery's "way" is a little
off - yes he advocates persistent repetition, but there's a game plan
involved that is a key piece of the puzzle and with out that just
approaching a lot of women is not, in my opinion, representative of what he
is proposing.

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Daniel:
Relationship....just the sound of the word brings some of us shivers. Ok,
so I don't personally know everyone's opinions on relationships as they
stand as an end unto themselves...but I tend to be of the belief that if
you keep the strength, 'google' and basic structure of everything learnt
from SS, etc., a more monogamous (MANogamus maybe?) relationship is fine.
Without being (or being labelled..) a borefriend, I've decided to give it a
go. That qualified, to me, it's a good thing. Let me explain why.
It all comes down to personal opinion of course, but having someone who has
studied seduction, etc. in a more-than-one-night relationship can be
rewarding and useful. The mindset and physiology it takes to use seduction
has given me a head and shoulders advantage over most guys in the
borefriend box, and hell, if you find a girl who is worth it (yeah we all
like to believe none of them are, but in MY experience, it's not always
so), it's all good.
So anyway, my question basically is regarding these kinds of matters...what
I imagine Major Mark's 'building a better girlfriend' thing is about, i.e.
are there any specific tools/skills that need to be altered or built to
accommodate the change in situation? And are there any guys on the list in
a similar position?

Cliff's Comments:  David has some really unique views about how to behave
in a relationship.  Getting a woman is one thing, keeping her on your terms
is quite another.

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Maximillian Hell:
>> Me: "Hi I'm Max, I haven't met you yet."
HB: "I'm waiting for my friends."
Me: ?!
>Mystery: Nothing personal but this tells me you are NOT getting laid. The
opener sorta sucks. Or at least the lack of transition into a routine.

Maximillian Hell:  Oh actually I quit using this a long time ago, it was
really my newbie deshying mission, but I did get largely good reactions
from it except for about five times. Nowadays I usually make some comment
about the environment as an intro.
The original question posed by Game Master was: "what are the shittiest
questions HBs come up with?" and I figured I might see this act again,
regardless of what I was doing.  I am an admitted RAFC. Intro and mid-game,
and closes are fine, but for some reason I end up getting alot of phone and
email blur--e.g. messages never returned. Bizarrely, this happens even
after the HB seems really enthusiastic about me. I'll talk more about that
at a later time. I always try to go for instant dates hopefully leading to
ZNS/ONS, but that is rarely practical.
>Mystery: Instead of trying to do things that fit your STYLE, consider
doing what WORKS. Yes it's not YOUR style, but then, if you keep doing what
you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten and you
want a change right? More girls? Well, a new STYLE, a new APPROACH is
definitely in order.

Maximillian Hell: True, but to play Devil's Advocate, MrSex4unyc always
maintained that you should do a style that is congruent with who you are.
SS has fit more into my style, because I am a friendly guy who has always
done the Dale Carnegie thing--ask people about themselves and be a good
listener. I also like Mark B's direct style.
But I have my misgivings about SS for reasons similar to the ones you
mention. You're right, I can't figure out how to EV/RL without telegraphing
interest, though once I kept up a very persistent and aggressive manner as
I essentially "grilled" an HB on her interests. The next time I saw her, an
independent observer said he really thought she was into me (alas, the BF
was watching her like a hawk that night and kept CBing me).
What keeps me from doing MM is that so far I haven't really been able to
come up with stories that might fit into an MM style for me. Somehow, I
don't think your stories and intros would work for me. For instance, don't
think most of the HB's I sarge are really into the paranormal. Also, men
are typically hostile to me in most bar/club circumstances. Some guys on
ASF were saying that this happens to them alot too.
> Mark B.: Hey to all of you looking to prolong your sexual performance. I
recently got a cold and began taking several 1,000 units of vitamin C to
counter the cold (1000 mg in the morning and 1000 mg at night, time release).

Maximillian Hell: Twinlab Multiple Mineral Caps have a great effect on me,
though taking just zinc probably works just as well. But if you do either
all the time, they sort of quit working, I recommend cycling them off and
on. Eating more food in general works great, but with the adverse side
effect of weight gain. Once my life gets a bit less chaotic, I am going to
test my theory that alot of fresh veg and salads help. I've also read that
olive and canola oil lead to firmer, harder erections.

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cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.

NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:

RECOMMENDED:

One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from alt.seduction.fast, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.

NOT REVIEWED YET:

Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):

 

[all words] [any words]

INFORMATION ABOUT THIS NEWSLETTER ARCHIVE:
This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

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