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"I made the preacher dunk me under in that big hot tub twice"

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I made the preacher dunk me under in that big hot tub twice
9/7/02 11:30:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
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Gamemaster: Well, Eva and myself are having a good time down here in the
bunker. Me and Goebbels just got done taking turns with her and then we
slapped her around a little bit just for effect. And I called her a
coldhearted cunt too in an unsuccessful effort to make her cry. Fucking
bitch! We'll see how she reacts when Ebay delivers that fucking cattle prod
I ordered off of my Discover card, by God. But first I'm gonna get real
drunk and go looking for some peasants that I can beat the hell out of
cause we disagree about the BCS formula or something. Die

Time to hit the reset button and set the record straight. If there is a
record my somewhat fluid belief system says they are destined to be
corrected so if you will indulge me for a few minutes......
1) I don't hate women, in fact l love women....even adore some on my
frequent call list if you won't hold that word against me. However, I will
not allow myself to be shocked or surprised by anything they do in a
relationship. I personally don't think that's such a bad thing. Is it a
protection mechanism....probably. Is that a bad thing....nope. Like most
single guys my age I have suffered enough indignation at the hands of our
female counterparts and unlike some, I don't like to be disappointed in
people that I open up to. Shoot me. I don't handle disappointment very well
and to me it's a distressing emotion. I have one standing rule with
everyone new I meet and I expect the same courtesy....."benefit of the
doubt." Sound fair? However, respect and trust MUST be earned. Any
arguments? I made the comment that women are basically soulless creatures
semi in jest but now that I think about it I can provide a number of
examples to back that up. Shoot me. Just because I refuse to buy into the
new wave of liberal tolerance and mandated "love your brother man" bullshit
doesn't mean I'm incapable of sustaining a very intimate relationship with
someone that qualifies under my strictly enforced rules! My world, my
rules. Shoot me. And one of my rules is that once the rules have been
established, the "One Strike" rule is in effect. However. I do occasionally
make allowances for people that are unfamiliar with such policies, and if I
feel they have long range potential I will give them every consideration in
an effort to bring about a balance in the relationship that is based on
common ground. In fact, I have a girlfriend right now that I gave a lot of
leeway, and I'm talking like 38 strikes, but she was coming out of a
marriage of 13 years and frankly she doesn't know what the fuck she's
doing. But, with a little tenderness, and sometimes a firm stance we have
found that we really can enjoy each other's company in a loving and mutually
respectful relationship based on shared VALUES.

"Oh my god, Game has lost his mind"!!!!!

Actually, I can spot a woman of quality with the best of em' and I will
occasionally make allowances
for their ill behavior if I think they have some staying power. I only have
one lady that I use the terminology (gulp) GF with, and I have tremendous
respect for her and I do trust that she won't intentionally fuck with my
emotions, but she might. Shoot me. The rest of em' could disappear tomorrow
and I could care less. C'est la vie. I think that means big deal? (Cliff's
Comment: No, it means "that's life.") The ones that can't make the trip are
the ones that do not display a subjectively adequate level of passion
either in their personal lives or toward my college alma mater when they
are lining up to play those cocksuckers from Florida or Georgia. My world,
my rules.
2) "Gamemaster is a vicious, despicable, contemptible, unfeeling, inhuman
parasite that feeds off the despair and pain of others and is only driven
by the detestable need to hurt, maim, destroy emotionally et al everyone he
comes in contact with to satisfy his existential emptiness and need for
(hang on, let me stop laughing first) exacting his own twisted version of
revenge in order to feed his sick, demented, delusional self-image to get
back at all the ex-wives, girlfriends, teachers, urologists, coaches,
fraternity brothers, etc. even including Brenda Barnes (the cunt) who broke
his heart when he was 14. What a piece of shit." (giggle snort) OK, I have
no issue with this one. : )
3) "Gamemaster is a spiritually unclean alcoholic and drug abuser." I
thought this discussion forum was about women and seduction? I grew up in
the 60's, what are you gonna do? Does my status as an ordained Santeria
Priest and the city's ranking Warlock mean I am spiritually impure, or does
that elevate a person to a different level? I don't know, I don't worry
about these things, and I don't judge people on nonsense like this either.
Remind me to tell ya'll about the time I got baptized in a Southern Baptist
church! Obviously, that one didn't take even though I made the preacher
dunk me under in that big hot tub twice.
4) Uh, what else? I suppose I could entertain you now with my recipe for
Chicken Fried Chateaubriand or something like that. Or, I could offer a
glimpse into my personal philosophy which is that I think that everything
that happens to me is semi-funny, whether some doofus agrees or not. So
here are some free thought and association snippets that either prove I'm
insane, or prove that the reader has no fucking sense of humor. First off,
Ancient History is my real passion. You probably didn't know this but those
dinosaurs used to stay in a pretty foul mood, I learned, and acted very
rowdy when scantily clad blondes yelled insults at them like "Guess who's
gonna be extinct someday, Mr.Ugly?" I also learned that the Greeks invented
Gods, naked boys and the shot put, and thought. Socrates invented the first
thought when he looked around and said "The mind is in the head, and why
are we wearing all these bedsheets?" I also learned that Southerners
invented laughter. That's a long story and all I can tell you is that the
Pilgrims missed out on that but it was probably because they didn't have
full-length mirrors on the back of their bathroom doors so they could see
how silly they looked in those knickers with all those buckles on their
shoes and things. People that live on the west coast have shitty attitudes
mainly cause the country was invented on the other side. I am proud to have
a Southern accent and I speak pretty good American with it too and I am
glad I'm not a Chinese Chinaman that has to learn how to talk in dots and
dashes or a Gyptian living in a burnoose that is all the time carving
hieroglyphics on a wall somewhere. Imagine trying to have a conversation
with a hieroglyphic man. How long does it take to carve bird, rock, stick,
doodad on the wall anyway? Be impossible to get a football score over
there. But I hear pan fried cobra is pretty tasty. Secondly, I think it was
a better world before a lot of things. The baseball cap on backwards, Rap,
the Bowl Alliance. Your whole grain police hadn’t passed a law against any
food that tastes good. Sausage and eggs weren’t a felony. A cheeseburger
didn’t get you shot at.  Hell, you can get arrested for food in your own
home if you don’t register your low-fat mayonnaise. You ever had that
stuff? Why can’t we get some scientist on a government grant or something
to get to the bottom of this? That stuff just don’t ruin good tuna fish,
that shit will poison a whole city! Thirdly, have the animal rights
activists struck your neighborhood yet? I’ll tell you what they’ll
do…they’ll burn down your house, set fire to innocent bystanders and all.
They not only don’t want you to eat veal, they’ll put a bomb in your car if
you don’t kiss a calf on the mouth and send him to Harvard! Can’t have sex,
can’t eat food…the next thing you know it will be illegal to tackle the
sumbitch with a football. They got it fixed now where it’s legal for fags
to fuck each other in the ass but you can’t smoke a cigarette in the same
room. Talk about intolerance!  Fourthly, what's up with this California
cuisine? I met a guy named Jeremy Beal, a Calif. restaurant mogul that had
revolutionized the BLT in Calif. In his restaurants you would order a PLT,
which was pineapple, liverwurst, and turnips on Afghan bread, in the Bay
area it frequently outsold his ‘okra burger’. I think he was the same guy
that invented diet birdseed. Fifthly, I was having dinner with a developer
friend a while back, one of those guys cleaning up on all the new money
here in town. He’d invited an old friend from high school to join us, his
name was Weffert Lorants - quite a character. Anyway, Weffert was
explaining how he lived on a bad section of Tuckaseegee Road (crack alley)
and that drive by’s in his neighborhood outnumbered the rest of the city by
about 20%. So my friend Tom asked Weffert how much he could afford for a
home. Weffert said if he could unload his house in Stunted Oaks to some
fool who enjoyed being around random gunfire, he could probably afford
around eighty-thousand. Weffert also made the point to Tommy that he sure
wanted to live in a gated community but he didn’t play golf and he didn’t
understand why you had to be a golf nut to live in a gated community? (Did
I mention that Weffert sort of speaks in tongues?) “I acky bo. Veepers
arter oo sumpin fur boars” Weefert said. Tommy translated….I like to bowl.
Developers ought to do something for bowlers. It was the inspiration for
what my friend called his two-bedroom “big looking houses that ain’t”. Fake
upstairs, 7 foot ceilings, kitchen opening into the “great room” which
opened to the laundry room. Weffert bought the first house in Bowling
Forrest and the neighborhood sold out in no time and I congratulate my
friend and Weffert on being men of vision every Wednesday night at the
State Line Arcade and Bowlerama (private members only).
And lastly, my personal philosophy when it comes to women.....A man should
never love a woman so much that he wouldn’t let a good friend fuck her.
Light and Love

(Another riveting commentary by GameMaster follows:)

First evidence of the art of seduction» in a Western ("3:10 to Yuma" 1957)
This is the most beautiful takedown you'll ever see in any western. Glenn
Ford is unbelievably cool in this role. This is the dialogue, I can't
replicate the scene with words, I'm giving the guy a standing ovation for
this one. Watched it 3 times this week and it just gets better and better.
Felicia Farr was a major hottie. The setup....Ford and gang rob a
stagecoach, he shoots the driver. Ford and gang ride into town, ask for the
Marshal and send him and the rest of the town on a wild goose chase for the
killers while they are having a few drinks being seductively poured by a
bored Miss Farr. Posse rides out of town in one direction, gang rides out
in another, Ford stays behind to chat it up with Felicia. Fluff fluff....he
lets her ramble then reaches out and gently caresses her curly locks while
she's still rambling:

Ford: Well...what's a woman for if you don't treat her right (turns to walk
Ford: Any young fellows around here? (murderous tonality and pacing,
amazing presence)
Farr: No, they're all old.
Ford: You must get awful....lonely. (Jumps on horse, thinks twice,
re-enters bar where Miss Farr is minding the store. Saunters over, steps
behind the bar like he owns the place, cozys up, corks a bottle of whiskey
with Authority)
Ford: You know look awful skinny.
Farr: (demurely) I feel skinny.
Ford: I don't mind a skinny girl...just as long as she's got blue eyes to
make up for got blue eyes. (aw man, what a one/two punch! : )
Farr: Brown (turns towards him)
Ford: That's OK, they don't have to be blue. (gives her the LOOK, and
kisses her - never even takes his hat off!)

There's another scene where Ford, wanted for murder/robbery (told you he
was cool) is having dinner at a captor's house with his family and he goes
to work on the guy's wife. Just destroys her. I can watch this over and
over again.
A shitty feelgood ending is the only downside to just an incredible
psychological study of a real Bad Boy in spurs. 8 cartridges out of 10.


Dwacon is absolutely right about shipmates -- I watch all of the dating
shows when I'm bored because they're great entertainment and occasionally
some hotties are on. Shipmates is the fucking WORST dating show on
TV!  But, as with the others, useful to watch AFC's interact and fail with
HB's--useful reminder of things to avoid and you can think about how you
would approach the situation differently to achieve a different outcome if
you were the guy on the show. On several shows I've seen hotties paired
with nerds. The nerds think the girls are nice on the first day. Then on
the 2nd they reveal they're Penthouse Pets and even showed the guys their
spread (one of them was a pornstar -- Cheyenne Silver).  The girls act like
they are even available. The guys blow it. It's a familiar repeat of
AFCness. Guess it's useful to remember what NOT to do!
Someone could write a book -- or at least a post -- of all AFC things NOT
to do - just from watching these shows. Examples:
·       Acting overly and excessively interested -- conveyed both verbally
and nonverbally..
·       Oogling her body.
·       Asking "Am I your type?"
·       Telling her stupid, negative, stuff about yourself or otherwise
over-disclosing in a non-useful way.
·       Acting as if you're on an information interview and playing 20
questions with her.
·       Doing NOTHING to create any type of attraction.
·       Not using KINO when appropriate.
·       etc.....


> GameMaster: Didn't think you believed in that sort of thing. Once
again,  you're missing the point. I give everybody the benefit of the
doubt, but women will ultimately be women, so what level of expectation do
you think I should afford them? Women have an are free to
argue that point, which was my point to begin with, and not my "view." Only
somebody with a Madonna Complex would take offense at what I said.

Ross: HUMANS have desires, wants and needs. And it certainly makes sense to
be aware of another human's possible "Agenda". From there, it's a big leap
to proclaiming that they are all heartless cunts without remorse or guilt.
Surely, we can be alert without labeling 50% of the human species as
somehow being irreversibly tainted.
I suggest a book here: Prometheus Rising, by Robert Anton Wilson. Read up
on reality-tunnels, the "sombutnotall" theory, and how what the thinker
thinks, the prover proves.
I'm the last person to advocate Pollyanna optimism, naivete or idealizing
women. That doesn't mean I'm going to bend to the equally extreme and
incorrect opposite and ascribe to them horrible characteristics or assume
they lack all redeeming ones.
I think the best seducers actually like women and I continue to both
believe and maintain you can like women and still be very attractive to them.
> Ross: Hey...PEOPLE (male and female) sometimes fuck OTHER people (male
and female) over. People can also be loyal, kind, affectionate,
appreciative. It sounds like that ONE woman you married really tore you
badly in two, and then you made the mistake of taking on HER
kill-eat-consume the other of the world. In other words, she is now running
around inside of you, looking at the world through YOUR eyes, and playing
the game as a male now consuming females.
> GameMaster: No argument on the loyal, kind, etc. As long as it suits
their agenda!

Ross: How does it suit the agenda of a woman who lost a husband in 911 to
continue to mourn him? Wouldn't the heartless cunt IMMEDIATELY start
looking for a richer, better looking guy?
Some women, like some men, are stimulation junkies. They move toward what
is most stimulating in their environment, devil take whomever it may cost
in broken promises, pain, etc.
Yes, THOSE women are heartless, because the heart for them isn't what
counts: it is the adrenals. Often they are pretty hot looking, but you can
easily identify them and take it from there. Don't assume all women operate
like that; they don't.
> GameMaster: But women that don't honor the relationship are invited to
take a hike. Is that mean? Does that make me a bad person? Does that offend
your sensibilities and sense of fair play? My world, my rules. Why the hell
should it be any other way?

Ross: I thought you just said ALL women are heartless cunts. So, how could
ANY of them "honor" a relationship?
> Ross: In other words, I understand attracting through being powerful,
making no excuses, but just plain not caring (and even enjoying) whom you
hurt because you believe the other to be irredeemably evil by nature is a
way to spiritual death and self-destruction, my man.
> GameMaster: Where is this nonsense coming from about enjoying hurting

Ross: You said yourself, you don't care if a married woman feels guilt
afterwards or the affair destroys her marriage. If you don't enjoy it, then
you certain aren't upset by it either.
> GameMaster: Uh, thanks....I think. I honestly don't know how you mistake
my indifference for rage. And it's only that indifference and my sincere
passion for things that are important to me that give me an edge. Not one
of my girls has ever seen me angry, blow up, react, or verbally abuse them
in anyway. That, my man, is a control mechanism, and it's a function of
self control as well. Shoot me.

Ross:  I won't shoot you.  I don't have a problem with this. I have a
problem with your being indifferent to whether what you do results in them
being hurt. You said that yourself. You can retract it if you want. Do no
harm, if you can avoid it. If that means giving up some pussy, so be it.
> Ross: I think David would shudder at the view that women are soul-less
creatures without guilt or conscience. I don't THINK that is how he
postulates about women. I think, ultimately, he likes and enjoys
do I, MOST of the time. I find women frustrating and confusing and annoying
as hell at times, but MOST are not evil...maybe I am beyond hope here.
> GameMaster: Look, it works for me. I don't hate women, I love women...
ask anybody I know. The difference is that I don't allow myself to be
shocked by the things they do, and they are capable of anything. Anybody
want to argue that point? I will hereforeverafter print in italics the
content of these messages that are offered in jest. The fact is that women
are NOT the saintly creatures being defended here...maybe my personal view
is extreme (and I'll be the first to admit that) but they are not worthy of
the other extreme either. Any argument there?

Ross:  I didn't say they were saints. They are HUMANS. That means they are
capable of the base as well as the sublime. Just like you...or me.


> Cliff's Comment: Mys doesn't feel that this is an overall effective
strategy when dealing with "10's" not only because they are usually out in
a group and rarely are out but they are not very approachable alone. But,
in my way of looking at things, you need bigger balls to go up to an HB and
tell her you think she's absolutely stunning or that she's a "shining
example of genetic perfection" than to ask some guys or the UG about your
friend's being asked to appear on the Ricki Lake show. Not to say the
latter doesn't take confidence, but it's a lot different.

Joseph:  With respect, Cliff, I think that neither one of these really has
to be about confidence. It takes an absence of self-hate and mistrust of
others, an absence of shyness, maybe.
If I walk up to a woman and say the shining example thingy, and she gets
pissy, then she's a bitch. Who cares? I don't want her anyway now she's
just become unattractive. Same thing goes if I ask her some wheedling
around the bush question about Ricki Lake. I'm just being friendly, it's
not like I've decided that I want to fuck her yet.

Cliff's Comment:  That's you.  I can assure you, without any doubt, that
either of those approaches I mentioned are seen as acts of great balls to a
great number of guys.  You may have a very useful attitude that this is not
the case when it comes to you, but many men will go so far as to define
"confidence" by the ability to approach and talk to attractive women.

Joseph: When I talk to a 10 I am testing her to see if she has anything
else going for her than just her looks. Hell, if I talk to a girl I am
doing her a favor. Women desperately want men to talk to them in a "real" way.
Sometimes I feel like an asshole when I am too tired or just not in the
mood to talk to them. All women are horny, all women yearn for process
based communication, so who am I to be so egotistical as to not go over and
talk to her? It's not like I have to fuck her, I can fuck anytime. I've
been given this incredible gift of making women feel really good.
Just because it doesn't fit my present agenda to make them feel good,
doesn't mean I should be so vain as to not talk to them.
With respect, I think that the statement that it is hard to approach a 10
who is alone is utter bullshit. I do it all the time. I do it when a 10 is
in a group. If I find that she is a bitch then I might ignore her and give
her fat friend all my attention. This is great because it makes me feel
good to give a lonely women some much needed attention, and it inevitably
makes the 10 jealous.

Cliff's Comment:  I think the actual comment was that it is rare to find a
10 who is alone; most of the time they are out with friends and are in a
group.  While I don't think that's always the case, I think there's a lot
of truth to that.

Joseph: I also do this because when a 10 is an unfriendly bitch and is
getting in the way of the particular communication and dick she needs in
her life, she suddenly becomes less attractive than a fat girl. Self
deprecation and unfriendliness are unattractive.
Now I'm not saying that you should next a women just because she has some
initial defence reaction, just try and use that to help her see the light
and get through that so she will be able to experience what she craves so
much. But you can tell when a woman is just a bitch or whether she just
needs some coaxing in just a few minutes.
Think about it, if a woman blows you off before you have even communicated
with her, then she is sabotaging herself. You may or may not be an
extraordinary opportunity for her, but there is no way she could know that
until she has communicated with her.
Funny thing is, as long as I have this attitude together with some rapport
techniques, I almost never get a blow off on the initial approach. It has
been months sense a 6,7,8,9, or 10 has been unpleasant with me and I
approach alot of women. I approach far more 9s and 10s than the others
because I just don't have time to make them all feel good and the 9s and
10s are the ones who I allow myself to have sexual ties to (can't have sex
with every woman you meet, you know) IF they have the other qualities I dig
and IF it jives with the other stuff I have going in my life.
About the hypnosis stuff - OK Ross has already explained that SS is not
hypnosis. It's more useful to think of SS as a communication style similar
to the communication style that the courtesans and geisha girls used
hundreds of years ago before Ross was even born. It is a technique that the
highest paid escorts and call girls use today. Contrary to popular belief,
the geisha girls were not trained in sex at all. They were not taught any
techniques of making love at all. Now, under the pretexts of Sapphism all
women in Asian society were taught love making techniques by older women,
but that wasn't limited to the geisha. What made the geisha girls different
and more seductive than other women was the fact that through communication
they were able to elicit powerful emotional states from the powerful men
they gave their services to.
When the king was with a geisha girl, he felt absolutely wonderful, better
than he felt at any other time in his life.
Having said that, I will also say that I do use hypnosis in some
seductions, but you must understand that the hypnosis is not and never will
be never was what gets me into bed.
I have this skill that makes people feel really good. Why keep it from her
just because I want to fuck her?
Who gives a shit if the effects of hypnosis wear off in an hour? I don't
use it to brainwash people, just make them feel good.
When a woman goes to a spa, the general good feelings wear off a couple of
hours after she comes home. But she goes back to the spa doesn't she?
Wait wait! NO NO she wouldn't go back to the spa, because the spa didn't
I am sick and tired of reading ignorant posts by people who think that the
only way to use hypnosis to become attractive is by using it as a
brainwashing device. I don't even know how to do that.

Cliff's Comment:  I think you are off on the wrong tangent.  The comment
about hypnosis wearing off related to making changes in guys to get them to
feel confident to approach women - the discussion then went on to point out
that Ross is not using hypnosis so that point was not relevant.  But it had
nothing to do with brainwashing women or hypnotizing them to get them in
bed which is something no one here is advocating.  Hypnotizing them with
their knowledge in order to heighten their pleasure is another story and is
a great pursuit (for more on this, see

Joseph: What I do know is how to make a person feel incredibly relaxed, how
to help a person to visualize and tap into their own deepest fantasies, to
experience a taste of that with me. That's why they keep coming back,
because they don't know anyone else who can do that and who they feel
comfortable doing it with.
Sometimes I use hypnosis if I glean that it would help them experience
something they want to experience. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I just
communicate with them geisha (SS) style. Sometimes all I have to do is
tease a little bit to bring it out their horniness and their attraction to me.
They are all attracted to me already, though some of them might not know it
yet. That's what makes it so easy. Of course demonstrating that to the hard
headed is sometimes not worth my time. But like Ted Nugent said, "You can't
eat ALL the pussy in the world."

When you meet a woman you should be testing her and screening her to see if
she qualifies, not worrying so much whether or not this technique might
work on a 9 or 10 or whether it might be only be suited for 6.5 to 8.76
range females. For an example, I went to a forest hostel this weekend and
met a 9.
Since everything was kind of in a group, I elected to just toss in cocky
humor now and again instead of sarging her in earnest. I piqued her
curiosity and started to sarge her. By the end of the night she had gotten
unattractively drunk and I had found out other things about her that
disqualified her. Next!
> Mystery: Interesting metaphor, equating short term "mind fucking" of
oneself with "comfortable travel" and at the same time limiting our readers
by increasing the concept of mere ANTICIPATORY ANXIETY up past "fearful
state" on through the shear agony of having to "crawl across the desert on
your hands and knees, half-dead and half-dying from thirst".
> Ross: In fact, it's an accurate metaphor for what many guys feel when
they see a very hot woman they'd like to approach. For many it goes beyond
anticipatory anxiety into full blown shaking fear or just plain not being
able to speak or move. Now, I have a tech to blast through that.

Joseph: He does - I saw it first hand. I really thought that some of the
guys who were at Ross's seminar just couldn't be helped cuz they had such
amazingly limited views about women. But they were approaching and having
sincere communications with beautiful girls by the end of the seminar. I
myself have gone from only approaching women in social situations to
approaching them wherever and whenever I damn well please.
> Mystery: Only insane people do not feel anticipatory anxiety when doing
something they haven't done before.

Joseph:  That's ridiculous. I hung drywall last week for the first time and
I felt no anxiety or fear.
Hanging drywall, talking to women, buying a new car, these are all just
things you do as a normal sane human being. It is fear and limiting beliefs
that attach some ridiculous meaning to talking to a girl.
How have you been even rejected if she doesn't respond? What did you apply
for? It's like having anxiety about putting a quarter in a slot machine.
Pull the lever, if it doesn't respond, shrug you MFing shoulders and walk
to the next one.
> Mystery: Self-hypnosis is for AFCs. It's the MAGIC PILL that sounds too
good to be true because ... it IS.

Joseph: What pisses you off so much about self-hypnosis? Is listening to a
song that makes you feel really good before you go out for AFCs? Is taking
a day off to relax and unwind before an important meeting at the office for
punks and wusses?
When an Olympic gymnast visualizes her routine hundreds of times before the
event something for losers?
Apparently not, because virtually all athletes are trained to do this
nowadays. I would put some stock in the science that backs hypnosis and
meditation and visualization up.
In fact, these three things (which are all the same in my book) have been
documented to put thousands upon thousands of cancers into remission.


Chris Powles:
> Ross: Mys, it is also a thin lie to say that your friend got invited to
be on Rikki Lake or that your friend found some kind of weird spell in his

CPowles: I must step in here and admit to something. I keep reading here
about Ricki Lake and the Spells story here, and must note that those are
not MM or anything. I'm sort of responsible here for the misconception. The
Ricki Lake story is something I heard from Hollywood (Vinigarr on the SS
list) and have spread far and wide. The Spells story is something that
actually DID happen to a friend of mine. They are openers I used to use,
share, and am phasing out. The truth is: MM openers are simply ones that
come in as NON-SEXUAL and where you are NOT HITTING on anyone. They are not
"Ricki Lake" or anything. The original MM opener was simply, "Do you think
spells work?" without the story. The thin lies, sadly, are mine. And it's
made me think about...


When I first discovered this world and wanted to start talking to girls, I
needed PRETEXTS. These were opinion openers in which you spun a story. And
if the story worked, why not do it all the time? And if it worked for me,
why shouldn't others use it? And then there were all the other little lies
during a PU: fake stories that belonged to someone else; lies about how old
I was; lies about my background so that I'd seem to have certain alpha
qualities; pretending to be the sign that she guesses I am (because that's
her ideal projection of who she wants me to be), etc., etc. And, damn, they
all worked well. But every now and then, I'd find myself in a relationship
with one of these girls, and all those lies would eventually be exposed and
wreak hell.
Now, first, is it possible to play this game entirely without lying? What
is lying and what isn't, since your true INTENT is often being hidden? Is
doing, say, a hyper-empiric demo designed to turn her on, but SAYING that
it'll help her find greater focus a lie? I'd like to phase the lies out of
my game. And I'm sure a lot of us must tell them. I think when you DO NOT
have to lie to get a woman is when you become a self-actualized person who
truly embodies the maxim that people in your life are just guests in YOUR
reality. This would be playing by YOUR rules, not THEIRS. It seems to me
that David (just plain David, that is) is VERY clear: he doesn't hide his
intent, and he tells the woman that she will be one of many in his life.
I'm curious: Is it possible to truly PLAY this GAME without EVER lying, and
how many of us do it?
Note: I'm not trying to get ethical here: I'm trying to get CONGRUENT and

Cliff's Comment: A couple of thoughts:  Firstly, I read a book some time
ago that was called something like "How to get anything you want in
life."  The whole book led up to a punch line that was that in order to get
whatever you want, you need to be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to get it
(not that you had necessarily to do that, but be willing to).  Now I have
met several guys that will tell a woman anything they think she wants to
hear and I am sure it works with good regularity.  Some of us don't have
the choice about that (I would be totally uncomfortable outright lying to
women although I have no problem not saying everything - I don't think
anyone tells anyone everything anyway - whether they just met them or even
if they knew them for awhile - and doing so would be foolish in my
opinion.  So unless specifically asked about something, I won't volunteer
certain things, like age.  I will do what I can to avoid that question but
I won't give her the wrong number).  But I think David has some great ideas
- not only does he use honesty to set down his rules and to be clear about
what he is looking for and what he expects, he also uses honesty as a
weapon!  To give you a rough example (and, believe me, this gets very
sophisticated) he might get a woman to agree that she's spontaneous.  Then
if she balks at sleeping with him the first night, he'll wonder out loud
that he thought she said she was spontaneous.  To be honest, however, I
haven't met many people who can think like David and turn around
discussions the way he can.  And he also knows how to do this with charm,
how far to push things, how much to say and not say, etc.  He has
tremendous intuition about which way to go also.  But I definitely think
you can play the game without lying - I have seen it done by many and it's
the only way as far as I am concerned.  To be a good liar you need a good
memory.  Raw honesty is also devastatingly attractive (by this I mean not
just being honest, but saying things that are true but difficult to say or
hear because they are not necessarily politically correct.


My all time best Crash and Burn
I was in Boston last weekend and had the opportunity to go out with Dr.
Alex Bender and Tokyo PUA (runs the ASF site). Awesome dudes all around.
This is not like my usual field reports - this one is about my worst
blunder ever. But its sooooooo bad, it's great!! And there is some learning
value to it...
Dr. A has this glow in the dark ice-cube that he pops into his drinks -
instant chick magnet. Together with his gimmick and my lack of fear we must
have opened about 30 chycks. My usual opener is to notice something about a
girl and bust on her about it - albeit in a very friendly, smiley, teasing
kind of way. So we head to this one place and head up to the bar to order
beers. While Dr. Alex is getting beers, I turn to this girl beside me who
had her jacket on over her shoulder as if she was cold - no arms in the
sleeves. So in a friendly way I say "hey, where are your arms?" as I
squeeze her empty sleeves. She turns to me dead serious and says "I don't
have any, I'm an amputee". Cliff, she really was an amputee - she had no
arms. I noticed that she was sipping her beer through a straw. Her friends
all turned hostile and just started getting aggressive "What do you want
creep? Why don't you just fuck off and go back to the end of the bar!!!"
Yiiikes!!! How do you recover from that one?
Dr. Alex hadn't heard her response so he didn't understand all the
hostility. He started apologizing to me saying that people in Boston are
not always that bitchy - I guess he thought it was kind of a funny opener -
until I told him that she really didn't have any arms. I'm killing myself
laughing now - but it totally killed me for the rest of that evening. I
don't think I ever recovered after that!


> Ross : By the way, I hung out with a few guys and watched the Ricki Lake
opener. It got girls talking for a few minutes, but after that things
petered out quickly. I would think a laughing, joking, more "life of the
party" approach would work better...there was a drunk guy in his late-40's
to early 50's who looked like a regular and he had 4-5 hotties toasting
with him. I don't know if he got anywhere with them...I think they were
just getting drunk with him, but he certainly had their attention.

Vinigarr:  I've gotta jump in here, being I am the creator of the notorious
Ricki Lake opener (Vini takes a bow). You're right; a laughing, joking,
life of the party, is exactly how you deliver this! Once you've got them
listening, you display a sense of humor as it relates to the story, eg.
"Who could be some big hairy mandingo dick, knuckles scraping on
the ground, Neanderthal looking faggot.. and he's prepared.. he appears
with a bouquet of red and white roses... iiiilllllll" From there the
possibilities are endless. You can build on it, talk about attractions,
connections, what you look for in a person.
Even bust on her and tease her. Lead into another "funny" story that
happened to you or a friend.
Or, if they're a bunch of dead heads, eject.
When the smoke clears, you're a funny, joking, life of the party guy,
having a good time. More importantly others see that, so you've not only
opened a bunch of people, you've opened the whole room. And that is social
> Mystery: For all the psycho-babble that's been put forth in this circus
debate ... gentlemen, if you are afraid to approach women ... I understand.
I'm there with you. It's OK to be scared. But fear is not an EXCUSE not to
approach. Smile big and approach anyways. AGAIN and AGAIN. "Repetition is
the mother of skill." ~ Anthony Robbins.

Vinigarr: Hold on. You're not dealing with the same issues that Ross is
dealing with. For guys to attend your training they've gotta have some game
- you even say that in your marketing material. The guys you train are over
their fear- mostly. Alot of the guys Ross fixes had crippling fear.  I've
seen it, and "just doing it" is not the solution for them.  It re-enforces
the emotion making it more painful to move forward. The other techniques
work to get rid of the fear first and THEN work on the skills.
> Mystery: Sometimes the best way to win is NOT to play. And that is the
case with this BF obstacle. Comments?
> Cliff's Comments: My latest explorations in this area (which, frankly
comes up SO often that I think we do need to have effective strategies to
maximize whatever potential may lie in the situation)

Vinigarr: If you've got so far with a chick and you are interested, then it
should be for more than physical reasons. With that in mind, keep her
around. Does she have friends? Can you make money with her? Can you hang
out with her as a pivot? The answers should be yes. One thing is for sure
if you're not in contact with her, you'll never get her.

Cliff's Comment:  This one goes back to honesty.  One of the things David
will say to a woman is "What does a man need a woman for?"  Whatever she
answers, the correct answer is "To make love to."  I like the idea of being
clear about what you are there for - anything else is a bonus.  Obviously
if she has nothing else going for her, or isn't interesting enough to hold
your attention out of bed, it won't last.  But, for me, I have always found
that if I wasn't clear about my intentions women would get weirded out to
varying degrees and not feel comfortable.
> Maximillian Hell: You're right, I can't figure out how to EV/RL without
telegraphing interest, though once I kept up a very persistent and
aggressive manner as I essentially "grilled" an HB on her interests. The
next time I saw her, an independent observer said he really thought she was
into me (alas, the BF was watching her like a hawk that night and kept
CBing me). What keeps me from doing MM is that so far I haven't really been
able to come up with stories that might fit into an MM style for me.
Somehow, I don't think your stories and intros would work for me. For
instance, I don't think most of the HB's I sarge are really into the
paranormal. Also, men are typically hostile to me in most bar/club
circumstances. Some guys on ASF were saying that this happens to them alot too.

Vinigarr:  Let me tell you this; chicks are into the paranormal, the
unknown, relationships, psychic phenomena, astrology, etc. etc.  Don't
confuse what you are into with what they are into. If you're saying you
don't think something will work, it's because you are afraid to do it and
see. Get some changework done and then go out and use whatever "fits your
style" and then go back and use what works.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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