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"The “Biggest Cat in the Jungle” syndrome"

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The “Biggest Cat in the Jungle” syndrome
9/11/02 6:07:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of
what this list is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are
on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that
you may be unfamiliar with.


Enrique Iglesias appeared recently here in Montreal and a review of his
concert mentioned how he brought a young lady up on stage.  He asked her
"Do you have a boyfriend?"  She goes "Yes," to which he goes "Oh."  Then
she says:

"It doesn't matter!"


Success is the child of audacity / Benjamin Disraeli
"The less you care about the outcome, the more you'll attract what you
want. The more you cling to your outcome and don't release it and let it
go, the more you will REPEL what you want". In other words, the MORE you
ardently want something the more NEEDY you become, which simply reinforces
at the subconscious level the very limiting/repelling "belief" that you
DON'T HAVE what you want to have.


This is my story and what works for me:
Before I state my beliefs, firstly, these are MY beliefs and opinions. I
came to these beliefs through real world experience with lots of women and
I am not going to argue about any of these. If anyone else has different
beliefs, that's fine, they are your beliefs and I'll respect that. In fact
I don't even really care why these work, all I care about is that it does,
for ME. Onward.
I started from a being pure chump with women that I desired (HB9s and
above) to getting a good number of HBs over the past 3 years. I have tried
almost every major technique presented on the internet (patterns, PU lines,
magic tricks etc..), some worked, most did not, so I had to figure out a
lot by experimenting on my own. Here's what I have learned and developed
over time. First some background to provide a better perspective on my
1) I go for women who are 9 and above in looks, intelligent and reasonably
stable emotionally. I stay away from druggies, party animals etc.. My
target range are women between 20 - 28 (I am 22). However, I have been with
much older women. The oldest being 38, but a total knockout. I am above
average in looks, I have been complimented on my looks a few times but I
have NEVER been approached by a woman based on my looks.
2) I like to date 3-4 women at a time, these are women I enjoy being with,
talking to and fucking (as described above). I am open to long term
relationships as long as there is no drama or clinginess, but I am never
looking for a long term relationship when I meet a woman, if I really enjoy
her presence and it evolves into something long term, then fine. Most of
the women that I dated and slept with ended up pursuing a long term
relationship with me. I don't normally pursue one night stands, if it
happens then fine, but I never push for it.
Now that I've defined my target, now I will explain my character.
1) Honest and Gutsy: I am always honest. That DOES NOT mean that I tell the
entire truth or will answer any question asked of me. It just means that
whatever I say is the truth. I like to sometimes do and say things that
most guys might find uncomfortable or rude, I always like to see how far I
can push things.
2) Adventurous and nature lover: I am into all kinds of sports. I really
enjoy extreme sports like sky-diving, cliff jumping, etc..I also enjoy
camping and hiking
3) Well read: Reading non-fiction books is my favourite hobby. I read at
least one new book every week.
4) Love travelling: Been travelling all over Europe/Asia and North America.
5) Humour: Cocky and funny. (Just like David DeAngelo/Sisonpyh's method)
Now keep in mind that not all these parts of my personality were strong 3
years ago, these were aspects of me that I really felt defined who I was. I
just explored and expanded these aspects and I make sure that these aspects
show in the way I interact with people. This also means that I made a
commitment to myself to improve my personality, lose my insecurities and
feel the very best about myself and what I do.
Now the actual techniques and steps:
1) The meeting, (get her attention): I meet women anywhere, I don't always
go out with the explicit purpose of meeting women. When I go to a club/bar,
I go with friends to hang out, and while I am there enjoying myself if I
see a woman that I like I will approach her right off the bat. Now,
wherever I am, if I spot a woman I find very attractive I look for
something unique about her. If I notice something unique or different about
her looks or her behaviour I will use that as a conversation starter and
will try to follow up with some humour if possible. Eg: if I see a girl who
is a really good dancer, I'll walk up to her with a straight look on my
face and say: "I notice that you seem to have an aura of intense energy
when you dance.....what the hell are you
on?(implying she's on ecstasy)". The other day I saw a chick wearing very
interestingly shaped sun glasses, I walked up to her, complimented her on
the shades and then started teasing by telling her that she was scaring
people by wearing shades that made her look like 'Robocop'. If I notice
nothing particularly unique then I might just walk up to her and say "Hi,
You're shapely figure/sense of personal style, etc.. got my attention, and
I am going to take a second to find out what you're like before I go and do
". Here is something very important: I
have noticed that I need to interrupt the woman and get her attention
before I can proceed. This accomplishes the effect of interrupting her
state and directing all her attention on me. I get her attention by using
powerful body language» (chest pushed out, shoulders thrown back, relaxed
expression), moving into her personal space and by catching her by
surprise. This is similar to one of Mystery's routines: Pop right in front
of the chick/group stick his hands out in front of them and ask for first
impressions. If some one did that to me out of the blue, it would interrupt
my mind from whatever I was doing/thinking and he would get all my
attention momentarily. This also reminds me of what GameMaster said
(paraphrased):"To get with a chick you have to shock her at some point to
interrupt her state". This interrupting of state and getting their
attention right away has made a major positive difference in my approaches.
This also takes some practice because you need to have powerful body
language» to effectively interrupt her and get her attention. I also
approach a woman the very second I see her, you can call it the 3 second
rule or whatever but the point is to do it without any hesitation. This is
VERY important. This can sometimes be hard to do if one is not in the right
mood or state of mind.
2) Getting the digits: After I get her attention, I talk to her for about
2-3 minutes about anything that I find interesting about her or the
situation, I get her to talk a little, if I did something interesting that
day I mention that. I add humour and tease her whenever the opportunity
arises. It is important to close at the height of the tension, when she is
the most excited or when she is laughing; it's kind of a take away, which
leaves them wanting more; never keep talking until her excitement level
drops. As soon as I see that her excitement level is high, I say "Nice
meeting you, I have to get going, what is your contact info?", they usually
offer their number at this point and I ask them to write it down. Now
here's something important I do: I usually make them get either a pen or
paper, or both. I do not provide both for them to write it down. I usually
carry both and make the girl offer one of the two. If she has neither a pen
or paper, I offer a pen and ask her to go into a nearby store or up to the
bar for paper or ask her to look into her purse for one. I make her WORK,
and they usually oblige, and this works well for me. I always get a number,
email has NEVER worked for me so I always get her phone number.
I am very COMPOSED throughout the meeting, I do not smile too much or act
excited in any way. Kind of like in a James Bondish way. Notice that timing
is very important from the beginning till the end of the pick up: interrupt
her state, get her attention, make a specific complement, tease/humour, get
her to talk, when excitement is high just break it off and say you have to
leave and ask for contact info. All of this is done within 3-4 minutes.
3) Getting the first casual date: I call within the first 3-4 days. After a
minute of small talk, I tell them that I enjoy playing billiards and if she
would like to join me for a game of billiards and interesting conversation
on XX day at XX time. They either say OK, or offer another date/time OR act
flaky. In the first two cases things are fine and I have a date. If she
acts flaky, I have to deal with it and this is still an area where I am
experimenting and need to improve. Also, a lot of the women I deal with are
around 20-25 years old and are flaky by nature. I have tried everything I
have read here or anywhere else and none have worked as well as I would
like so I am still experimenting.
4) First casual date: For the meeting I show up a little late. Also getting
them to come over to my place before heading out worked well (I did this
when I used to live close to this nice cafe). At the beginning of the date
I act indifferent. At the beginning I rarely make eye contact with her and
act very aloof. I talk about anything that comes to my mind, joke about
things, tease her a bit. I find that most women experience dates with men
who try to be nice and too cordial right at the beginning. When I act kind
of indifferent and aloof in the beginning it throws them off balance, takes
away their power and makes them curious. I start to show more interest in
them and make more eye contact as the date progresses. During the
conversations I only explore and discuss things that I find interesting,
eg: if she talks about her grandma and I have no interest in that I will
change the subject, but if she talks about her latest camping experience I
will show genuine interest and ask her more about it. I show a genuine
interest in her, but only regarding aspects that interest me. I keep up the
teasing and humour slightly THROUGHOUT the date. Basically, I show a
genuine interest in her as a person while keeping up the mild teasing and
humour. I keep the conversation POSITIVE and FUN and stay away from heavy
conversations about marriage, relationships or overly emotional topics. I
also do not talk about my personal history and do not ask her about her
personal history either. If she asks me about my life and history I just
change the subject or give vague answers. I usually never give a woman a
direct answer. When she asks me a question I try to make the answer an
interesting story or anecdote, while at the same time not giving her the
exact information she wants. If you think about it, it is a power play. You
maintain your power by not giving her information she wants in her quest to
try to figure you out. Keep her guessing. I find that in order for a woman
to open up I have to open up a little first. I tell interesting stories
from my travels in Europe and funny experiences. I talk about my sky diving
and cliff jumping experiences. I feel that STORYTELLING is a very useful
skill to have and it has helped me tremendously, not only with chicks but
in other areas of life too. I talk about things I noticed about human
nature and differences in cultures. I talk about the latest book that I
just read, etc.. I also give her all my attention when she speaks and do
not interrupt her (unless she starts talking about something I have
absolutely no interest in). But occasionally I will look around and act
disinterested, again triggering her insecurities.  I physically move around
and do something else. This is a VERY important part of the first date.
Sitting in a seat and talking to a chick for more than 40 minutes starts to
get boring and the excitement level drops down. So when the conversation
starts to lag, I'll get her to come play a game of billiards with me. After
a game of billiards, maybe go for a walk or play darts, whatever, basically
I get some physical motion going and do other activities to keep things fun
and interesting.
I challenge them if they act disrespectful or bratty. This I feel is VERY
important. With this one girl, when I made sexual jokes she straight out
told me "I am getting bad vibes about you", to which I replied "That is too
bad. I am just being myself and I want to have a good time with you, but if
you don't like what I am saying then you are welcome to leave". At the end
of the date, she ended up in my room in a heavy make out session with me.
Haaaah. Most women who are 10s play lots of such games and it is very
important to be on the lookout for these games and stand your ground as a
man and not even flinch. I openly talk about sexual topics but only a
little, and usually the woman gets into it. I think it is VERY important to
have at least a little conversation on sexual topics so that she is
thinking about sex in my presence. But the sex convo is very third
personish, just about sex in general and how people perceive it, but not
specifically about her or my experiences. I also add some sexual innuendo
here and there but not too much.
OK, now I have a rule and it is that I have to experience sexual chemistry
with a girl on the very first date. I always go for the make out and if she
resists a bit that's fine, as long as she is cool with my stroking her
shoulders/hair and holding her hand. Basically, there should be some sexual
Getting the make out is easy as long as you follow the steps to the kiss
and here they are:
1) Invasion of personal space a little and staying in there to create
tension. Basically after she is a little comfortable with me I will start
standing closer to her and start gazing into her eyes more. I DO NOT touch,
just invade her personal space when speaking to her and gaze into her eyes.
This creates sexual tension.
2) Then I gently hold/massage her hand. This can be done by doing palm
reading. I do it differently, I tell her a story that involves parts where
I have to hold her hand and stroke it a bit.
3) After I've invaded her space (only after she is comfortable with me) and
held her hand, then I will stroke her arms/shoulders and smell her neck
(without actually touching it: tension and arousal) to see how she
responds. If she responds well then she IS GAME and I go for the kiss.  If
at any step there is resistance, I back off a little, give her more
distance, chat a little longer and go back to that step. It is VERY
important to go step by step, you can speed up the steps but you must not
skip steps.
I use cocky and funny humour even during the make out stage by accusing her
of being too forward, etc...(thanks, Sisonpyh.) After I kiss her, towards
the end of the date, I tell her straight out that I am not looking for a
relationship and just want to be friends and get to know her better. This
usually throws them completely off. At this point I tell her my views on
dating and relationships, which basically goes something like this: I think
people jump into relationships too soon. I like to see someone for sometime
before I even think of a relationship with that person. So at this stage
let's just hang out as friends and have a good time.
Now, I do ALL of this on the very first date. My first dates are usually
about 2 hours long if things go smoothly and I enjoy her presence. If I
don't enjoy talking or hanging out with her I will say bye and leave
sooner. That is how I operate. I do not try to sleep with her on the first
Here is something important that I do: I do NOT give them a good night
kiss. After making out, they expect a good night kiss at the end but I do
not give it. If they make a move to kiss me I kind of move away and joke
about her being too forward. This keeps them wondering about me and curious
when they go back home.
After all this, how soon I end up sleeping with the woman depends on the
woman and how things go between us. It varies, but usually within the first
5 meetings. I like to take my time as I only want to sleep with women that
I like spending time with and want to keep around for a bit.
I always keep control of the date. I direct things. I never allow her to
control me. I throw her off balance and keep her wondering. I will
challenge her and may even walk out if she disrespects me or acts in a way
I don't like.
Ok, so I have built strong chemistry and interest that will lead to sex
soon. If I start seeing a chick regularly, here are some general thoughts
on how to behave with them..
1) I always treat them well. I see them as a friend and lover. So after
I've been seeing them for sometime, I talk to them about very intimate
things just like I would with a best friend, and I also show a genuine
interest in them as person and find out as much about them as I can.
Remember that I only sleep with women I enjoy being with so this is easy
and pleasurable.
2) I always keep control of the relationship. I keep teasing them always. I
always do what I want and NEVER give in to her demands. If they disrespect
me I blow them away. eg: My girlfriend was more than twenty minutes late
for a dinner date once and she did not call to tell me she would be late,
so I just cancelled plans, went to a nearby cafe and ordered food for
myself. She went to my place then came to the cafe looking for me,
apologizing profusely and without a valid excuse for being late. I told her
that I have cancelled the plans and that after I'm done eating the food I
am going to read a book. She has always been showing up 5 minutes early for
all our meetings since then.
OK, so that wraps it up.
This list has been very valuable to me in my journey and I respect everyone
who contributes to the list. The ideas of the following people have helped
me tremendously: Svengali (old timer on asf), Sisonpyh.  Some of the stuff
posted by Mark B. is very similar to my experiences. His beliefs on the
importance of diet in staying calm and being in the zone are right on.
I had the opportunity to meet David (from Montreal) and that was very
inspirational. Sisonpyh is a genius. Cliff is a great guy for organizing
this mailing list. Good luck!

OK, now I have some questions for people on this list:
1) I remember David mentioned during our meeting that he was relentless. I
am not clear exactly what he meant by that. Can someone elaborate and give
some examples if possible? Cliff? Also can you give us some more examples
of how David uses honesty as a weapon?
2) I have noticed that chicks who are between the age 20-25 are extremely
flaky. Anybody have thoughts on this issue? Recommendations on how to deal
with them?
3) One of the things that really inspires me to keep improving is reading
stories of masters and their ways. Reading the story about Cliff's friend
Claude drove my energy level ten fold for a week, I was meeting chicks all
over the place. Same when I first met David and when I read about
Sisonpyh's friend who "waves cartloads of women over". I would like to read
more stories about masters and their ways. Cliff, Sisonpyh, anyone?


> GameMaster: Didn't think you believed in that sort of thing. Once again,
you're missing the point. I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but
women will ultimately be women, so what level of expectation do you think I
should afford them? Women have an are free to argue that
point, which was my point to begin with, and not my "view." Only somebody
with a Madonna Complex would take offense at what I said.

Ross: HUMANS have desires, wants and needs. And it certainly makes sense to
be aware of another human's possible "Agenda". From there, it's a big leap
to proclaiming that they are all heartless cunts without remorse or guilt.
Surely, we can be alert without labeling 50% of the human species as
somehow being irreversibly tainted. I suggest a book here: Prometheus
Rising, by Robert Anton Wilson. Read up on reality-tunnels, the
"sombutnotall" theory, and how what the thinker thinks, the prover proves.
I'm the last person to advocate Pollyanna optimism, naivete or idealizing
women. That doesn't mean I'm going to bend to the equally extreme and
incorrect opposite and ascribe to them horrible characteristics or assume
they lack all redeeming ones.
I think the best seducers actually like women and I continue to both
believe and maintain you can like women and still be very attractive to them.

Gamemaster: And I might suggest you read "Reality is What You Can Get Away
With." Wilson's view toward women is more Crowleyan than an anything else.
And while Crowley was capable of sustaining lasting spiritually loving
relationships with a chosen few, he also used women for his own pleasure
when it suited his personal agenda. I kind of like his style. And forgive
me if I refuse to bend to an equally silly and incorrect socially
engineered mindset that preaches that everyone is inherently good and well
meaning. Like I said, everyone gets the benefit of the doubt until they
prove themselves one way or the other. Personally, I would much rather be
pleasantly surprised to find that one of my HC's is one of your HB's than
the disappointment of the other way around. Do I hear applause?

Ross: How does it suit the agenda of a woman who lost a husband in 911 to
continue to mourn him? Wouldn't the heartless cunt IMMEDIATELY start
looking for a richer, better looking guy? Some women, like some men, are
stimulation junkies. They move toward what is most stimulating in their
environment, devil take whomever it may cost in broken promises, pain, etc.
Yes, THOSE women are heartless, because the heart for them isn't what
counts: it is the adrenals. Often they are pretty hot looking, but you can
easily identify them and take it from there. Don't assume all women operate
like that; they don't.

Gamemaster: I can appreciate the analogous "race" card of 911? Allow me to
clarify the Heartless Cunt Theorem (HCT).....all women are heartless
cunts.  Under my system, women can play themselves out of the cellar of
"HC's" and progressively move themselves up the ladder to Selfish Bitch if
they give enough head, and are enthusiastic about it. Some might even reach
the penthouse of "I don't trust you as far as I can throw you-you fucking
whore" if they give blowjobs during football games and don't complain too
much as I'm opening my 18th beer. You have HB's I have HC's....maybe we're
not that far apart. I think subconsciously HB was inspired by Heartless Bitch.
> GameMaster: But women that don't honor the relationship are invited to
take a hike. Is that mean? Does that make me a bad person? Does that offend
your sensibilities and sense of fair play? My world, my rules. Why the hell
should it be any other way?

Ross: I thought you just said ALL women are heartless cunts. So, how could
ANY of them "honor" a relationship?

GameMaster: See above guidelines. Full details to be published in a later
release, a companion piece to Fucking Your Way Around the Zodiac.

Ross: You said yourself, you don't care if a married woman feels guilt
afterwards or the affair destroys her marriage. If you don't enjoy it, then
you certain aren't upset by it either.

GameMaster: OK, I never said that. Never said that. Do I need to repeat
this again. Never said that. BTW, give yourself a pat on the back Ross. I
used to have some real moral issues about fucking married women until you
showed me the light. Thanks!

Ross: I won't shoot you. I don't have a problem with this. I have a problem
with your being indifferent to whether what you do results in them being
hurt. You said that yourself. You can retract it if you want. Do no harm,
if you can avoid it. If that means giving up some pussy, so be it.

Let's see, if I'm dating several women and I tell them all that I'm dating
several women, and even yield to details if they insist-am I being cruel,
or honest? I'm going with honest on this one. That being the case, if these
women allow themselves to be hurt by this process that's not my problem. I
suppose I should go back to the tried and true formula of lying out my ass
and sneaking around.
> GameMaster: Look, it works for me. I don't hate women, I love women...
ask anybody I know. The difference is that I don't allow myself to be
shocked by the things they do, and they are capable of anything. Anybody
want to argue that point? The fact is that women are NOT the saintly
creatures being defended here...maybe my personal view is extreme (and I'll
be the first to admit that) but they are not worthy of the other extreme
either. Any argument there?

Ross: I didn't say they were saints. They are HUMANS. That means they are
capable of the base as well as the sublime. Just like you...or me.

GameMaster: So what the hell are we arguing about??? I agree most women are
humans, unless of course they are a demon from hell. : )
> Maximillian Hell: You're right, I can't figure out how to EV/RL without
telegraphing interest, though once I kept up a very persistent and
aggressive manner as I essentially "grilled" an HB on her interests. The
next time I saw her, an independent observer said he really thought she was
into me (alas, the BF was watching her like a hawk that night and kept
CBing me). What keeps me from doing MM is that so far I haven't really been
able to come up with stories that might fit into an MM style for me.
Somehow, I don't think the proposed stories and intros would work for me.
For instance, I don't think most of the HB's I sarge are really into the
paranormal. Also, men are typically hostile to me in most bar/club
circumstances. Some guys on ASF were saying that this happens to them alot too.

GameMaster: YES YES YES! It's what you project. I call it the "Biggest Cat
in the Jungle" syndrome. The Goddess Lara Flynn Boyle had this to say about
that..."I'm the kind of woman that when she walks into a room, all the
other women automatically hate me!" If you project confidence, if you are
comfortable within yourself, and if you have a fluid take no prisoners
attitude you will eventually draw this type "hostile" attention from other
alpha wannabe's that are breathing the same air. Women find this very
I also agree with Vinigarr about women being into the paranormal or what I
refer to as metaphysics. My guesstimate is about 75%. Most women are just
naturally curious about this kind of stuff and it's an opportunity to
display your intellectual prowess once you clear a few hurdles. I've found
that light references to Astrology are a good way to introduce this
direction into the conversation. However, if they don't bite it's time to
move on to something else lest you be branded a Kook, a permanent state killer.


Maximillian Hell:
>Vinigarr: Let me tell you this; chicks are into the paranormal, the
unknown, relationships, psychic phenomena, astrology, etc. etc.

Maximillian Hell: Relationships and the paranormal are not the same thing.
I never disputed that they might be into relationships--you might note that
Mystery keeps those two categories separate.


> GameMaster: 1) I don't hate women, in fact l love women....even adore
some on my frequent call list if you won't hold that word against me.
However, I will not allow myself to be shocked or surprised by anything
they do in a relationship.

Ross: Why isn't this sound advice for ALL humans, men or women?
> GameMaster: Just because I refuse to buy into the new wave of liberal
tolerance and mandated "love your brother man" bullshit doesn't mean I'm
incapable of sustaining a very intimate relationship with someone that
qualifies under my strictly enforced rules! My world, my rules. Shoot me.
And one of my rules is that once the rules have been established, the "One
Strike" rule is in effect.

Ross:  Well, I'm surely no liberal. I do think what the thinker thinks, the
prover proves. If you go along, and your first and primary sorting criteria
is "hotness" to the sole exclusion of everything else, then you are likely
to select people who move towards whatever is most stimulating in their
I keep trying to make this point: it isn't that these people are heartless
(though that is one way to look at it). It is that they only notice what
stimulates them most.
Of course then, once you cease to be that, they will move on to something else.
I am 100% in favor of recognizing, clearly, whom you are dealing with and
how they act in the world. I just think it is more accurate to view
strippers, emotionally disturbed women who adore drama, etc. as being
stimulation junkies more than "heartless cunts".
I also think there is a relationship between ADD (attention deficit
disorder) and women who seek out pain, abuse, etc. etc. They need this
additional level of stimulation just to feel awake! I would call it RADD
(Romantic Attention Deficit Disorder).
If a guy enjoys stimulation, great. If he enjoys it to the exclusion of
other things entirely (companionship, friendship, fun, etc.) then great too.
Just be aware of the other things that come along with such a lifestyle.
> GameMaster: 3) "GameMaster is a spiritually unclean alcoholic and drug
abuser." I thought this discussion forum was about women and seduction?

Ross: I'm just pointing out something: every human wants stimulation. SOME
humans have an excessive need for it and they tend to select others who
have excessive needs for it. Often, that excessive need extends to other
things that aren't healthy.


Here's my review of David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating» Advanced CD Audio
Everything is neatly presented in an A4 binder, which includes 11 CDs
stored neatly in sleeves in the binder; a track listing; all the slides
from the seminar, three to a page and some miscellaneous stuff at the back,
including David D's recommended reading list. All promptly delivered, of
The audio quality is absolutely spot-on. Considering this is recorded from
a seminar, this is amazing. Or maybe I'm just used to some of the somewhat
muffled efforts that others have come out with before.
But, you probably don't care about all that stuff ... nice to have ... but
does the product do what it says on the tin?
David (One of Ross' ex-students, I believe. I think that's him sitting at
the back next to Rick on Ross' LA videos) has taken a very scientific
approach to seduction. In fact, he'd probably prefer it if you referred to
it as "Attraction", rather than "Seduction", as the whole course is based
on his theory "Attraction isn't a choice".
He starts by giving the listener a thorough background in various areas of
scientific research from the fields of Ethnology, Psychology and Evolution
Theory. A lot of this is in the form of quotations read out from books on
David's reading list.
Everything from the composition of the human brain, through genetics, to
fish mating sequences.
The next couple of hours are taken up with David's thoughts on The Inner Game».
He puts a very strong emphasis on what you or I might call "Being in the
right state". I suspect there's more to it than that when you really "get
it" with women, but that's how I'm describing what he teaches. So, a lot of
this is stuff about reframing limiting beliefs; the nature of luck and
reality; self-image. This really seems to be one of the most important
parts of the CD. These are the basics, without which you'll not go all that
far.  Approximately a third of the course is spent on The Inner Game»,
before the next third which deals with ... no, I'll let you guess ...Many
of these parts are covered in David's book, but he doesn't belabour points
that have been covered there and in fact assumes that you have read his ebook.
Everything in The Outer Game is nicely explained and tied into The Inner
Game», so it is still worth learning again, anyway.  The final third of the
CDs are the guest interviews from Orion (ex-Ross student, of
TroubleShooters and Magical Connections fame), Eric (Friend of David's),
Rick (Ross' star pupil - 5 women at once; bisexuals speciality, etc.),
Riker (Ross' online sarge guru) and Brent (Friend of Rick's). All of these
guys are well worth hearing from. They really help as role models, which
helped me to get what David is explaining about being attractive to women.
Some of the things these guys say sounds pretty way out - they are,
collectively, VERY experienced in seduction - but having listened to the
first two thirds of the course you ought to now be able to understand where
they are coming from, and just why what they do works. Furthermore, I think
anyone who has been paying attention so far would now stand a great chance
of being able to replicate their successes themselves.
I highly recommend this product. I think it is well worth the money. I like
David's alternative "Attraction vs Seduction" take on some of the
established ideas in this area as sets up the whole course to be very
different from any of the more process based seduction systems out there.
PS If anyone in, or around London wants to get in touch with me, then
please drop me an email: adrian _at_
ICQ #5618426


One thing I'd advise for anyone who wants to improve in anything is to ask
and answer a simple two part question after each performance and that is,
"What did I do right and well? And in order for me to improve, what would I
do differently next time? Unless you did nothing at all (and sometimes even
then), you can ALWAYS find at least one thing that you did right and/or
well! Look for EVERYTHING you did right and well! It's important to build
upon and CONDITION successes! SUCCESS BEGETS SUCCESS is another way of
looking at it! This question helps us to be success-focused and oriented in
our own experience! The second part of the question is "In order for me to
improve, what would I do differently next time?" The beauty of this second
question is that it frames everything POSITIVELY and that builds us up and
strengthens us inside. It also helps us to correct mistakes or refine
important IMO! We always get to be on our OWN side in our learning which is
as it should be! This question came from Brian Tracy, another great success


This brings me onto Daniel's realization that there may in fact be a
winning line. Are we out there picking up as many women as possible in some
never ending constant stream, or should we be trying to locate a trophy of
some kind? Can we categorize some as A-list females truly worthy of an LTR,
or are we just big game hunters, gloating over a constant succession of kills?
I myself am now at a stage where I am having difficulty moving up any
higher without considerable extra effort. In order to trade up I need to go
from medium level socialite to full on celeb (maybe TV presenter or
starlet) and I was wondering what aspirations other guys have?
Having started out on club chicks, I moved onto to the likes of perfume
counter assistants and promotion girls. Perhaps it is because there are no
such things as strippers in my area that I view them as rather "cheap" but
I am sure there are others on this list that crave intellectual stimulation
just as much as the physical kind. I agree that strippers have great
physical assets but in some people's minds 'exotic dancers" are not much
more than a small step up from hookers. No offense intended, says I when it
says that a good half of my friends still chase karaoke hostesses and
second wives on a regular basis :-)
Once you do have a very good quality (and here I mean much more than a
superficial HB10), then moving into the areas of threesomes and moresomes
becomes much more of a practicality. Here are a few hints that others might
find useful.
1. Introduce personal fantasies into your sex talk as early as possible. As
you get to learn her reactions and together your sexual techniques improve,
encourage her to talk dirty to you about that cute little waitress that she
caught you eying in the club. Once you are talking about it together it
reaches a much higher possibility of happening in real life.
2. Suggest a few safety regulations if she seems a little nervous, e.g.
that neither of you should see a third party without the other being there.
This will hopefully give her some extra peace of mind. Comments?
3. Plan things as carefully as you would with any other desirable target.
Do not think that the two of you can just go out and grab a waitress and
then enjoy a triple religious experience. There again GameMaster doesn't
seem to have any problems!!!
4. Catch up on a little light porn. Look especially for movies that have at
least a semblance of plot and that involve 1M2F combinations. Try mimicking
their frolics even. I bet Ross has something to say about this bizarre
mirroring strategy.
5. Waking up with two girls is very different from waking up with just one,
especially when one is your LTR GF. Make sure you choose one that is
reasonably stable that could probably maintain at least a friendship after
the experience. Think of all those wasted one night stands which actually
counted for zip in the big picture. Those kinds of urges need to be quelled
when there is a third person involved.
6. Make sure that everybody in the club sees you leave with the most
beautiful girls in the place on your arm. What is the point in being so
successful if there is nobody there to see it?  :-)


Gold Dragon Phoenix:
> Mystery: So let's get this straight. You are challenging the fact that
people feel fear about doing something important that they've never done
before? Yes in MY world and also in MY personal experience...

Gold Dragon Phoenix:  I don't get paid to teach seduction but in MY world
and also in MY personal experience....some people got really nervous before
exams in school, some people got over their nervousness, and other people
never had that problem.
The same is true for the people I met when I was involved in live theater.
Why should "opening sets" be any different? If performance anxiety is very
bad, maybe hypnosis....or energy work....or magick....or beer will help.
Sure, beer probably fucks up the performance, but the anxiety is gone. lol!
Seriously, use whatever training wheels you need when you start, but my own
personal suggestion is to ditch all of the gimmicks as soon as possible.
Fake it until you make it, if necessary. Just know when to stop faking it.
Disclaimer: no dog in the fight.
> Ross: How does it suit the agenda of a woman who lost a husband in 911
to continue to mourn him? Wouldn't the heartless cunt IMMEDIATELY start
looking for a richer, better looking guy?

Gold Dragon Phoenix: Is this rhetorical? I'm sure you're aware of the
concept of secondary gain.
> Ross: You said yourself, you don't care if a married woman feels guilt
afterwards or the affair destroys her marriage. If you don't enjoy it, then
you certain aren't upset by it either.

Gold Dragon Phoenix:  I thought you were big on the principle that guys are
responsible for their own emotional state. What's sauce for the goose is
sauce for the gander, and vice versa. Women are responsible for their own
emotions. I prefer helping women feel good. It help repeat business. But
I'm not going to get upset if a married woman feels guilt afterwards or she
lets her affair destroy her marriage. We're all adults here.


Mark B.:
As much as we learn what to do I feel that there exist valuable lessons in
also learning what not to do. I learned a hard lesson recently on the
importance of being positive. I went to This is London, a night club in
Toronto last Saturday with a few friends. During the night I had a few
drinks and did not feel very sharp as I did not have a good night's sleep
the night before. As the night winded down, I sat down on a couch in the
upper level opposite to an HB10 in a gorgeous flowing dress. She looked at
me and said "this is a nice comfortable couch, isn't it?" I agreed and we
began a conversation. We snuggled beside one another to the point where our
foreheads were touching as we spoke. She began telling me how she almost
died in a plane crash when she was 13 and this put her life in perspective
for her where she overcame her fear of flying and now wants to become a
commercial airline pilot. She told me how she likes to sky dive and take
risks. She commented on how she likes to shock people with her eccentric
behaviour and how deeply passionate she is as a woman. Then she began
asking me questions about me, what I do and what is my astrological sign.
Now from experience, I know that when a woman talks about herself in a
positive light and advertises herself to that male as well as asks him
questions about himself she has a high interest level. As well, our
physical posture also indicated her level of interest. To her question I
told her I was a Leo and she commented that she was a Scorpio. Then I made
my critical error. I told her I dated a Scorpio for 2.5 years but that we
had a very volatile relationship, we fought all the time and that it is not
a wise decision to double cross a Scorpio as they will inject their
venomous fangs into you when double crossed. Needless to say, she did not
appreciate the comments. She said she had to go to the bathroom, excused
herself and never came back. I realized what I had done wrong. On my way
home in the car I replayed what I had said to her in the club and how
things suddenly took a drastic turn downward. I then looked back at my
failed attempts successfully connecting with women and realized that times
when I failed were based on some form of negative comments from me directed
at the woman or just in general. It seems woman want and need a positive
force in their lives and showing them a guiding uplifting light tends to
make one look as the source of deep and positive emotions. Looking back, I
also realized that simply avoiding saying anything derogatory about
anything makes you look positive as well without having to act like an
annoying Pollyanna. So harsh lesson learned as I feel I would have been
able to take her home with me had I not fucked up earlier.
I also realized how women prefer to be approached. Times when a woman has
tried to pick me up in a bar or anywhere else it was almost always in such
a way where she initiated a conversation with me about the setting where we
are rather than tell me she wants to meet me. It is her attention that
shows her interest rather than showing it through some form of verbal
expression such as "I like you" or "I think you are hot," etc. For this
reason I feel that it's important to watch and learn how women behave and
what they do. Women have commented that they wish for a female brain on a
man's body just as myself included and a lot of other men out there wish
for a woman with a male brain - fuck at the drop of a hat. As we have seen
time and time again -conversation first, show of interest second.


>CPowles: I must step in here and admit to something. I keep reading here
about Ricki Lake and the Spells story here, and must note that those are
not MM or anything. I'm sort of responsible here for the misconception. The
Ricki Lake story is something I heard from Hollywood (Vinigarr on the SS
list) and have spread far and wide. The Spells story is something that
actually DID happen to a friend of mine. They are openers I used to use,
share, and am phasing out. The truth is: MM openers are simply ones that
come in as NON-SEXUAL and where you are NOT HITTING on anyone. They are not
"Ricki Lake" or anything. The original MM opener was simply, "Do you think
spells work?" without the story. The thin lies, sadly, are mine. And it's
made me think about...

SexPDX: The way I see it the choice to lie to a woman about anything during
a PU is not a moral thing but rather a choice that is made that carries
potential consequences that you have to decide if you are prepared to face.
Such is the case with lies in general. Let's face it, we're ALL a bunch of
liars! Any of us would lie to a particular person, about a particular
matter, at a particular time, for a particular purpose. I myself do lie
sometimes. Not as much as I used to, however.
In PU, there are differences in the magnitude of lies. An opener I recently
used in a street approach had to do with saying that I had seen a group of
rabbits up the street and I asked the woman if that was normal for that
area. I saw no rabbits, but the opener was effective in starting a
conversation and we moved beyond that. I did not close her but if I had
what risk would there have been in such a lie? Pretty minimal. How would
she ever know that I never saw any rabbits? The Ricki Lake opener (which I
have used several times) carries a little bit more risk because she is more
likely to find out that you never had a friend on the Ricki Lake show.
Still more risk was Chris's example of pretending to be the star sign that
she guessed him to be. The extent of your involvement with her MAY become
such that she would find out that was a lie. All this is pretty obvious,
however there are other risks to lying in PU that»
does not often discuss.
DeepBlue recently mentioned to me that when you practice talking in a
contrived way during a PU to an extent you are just using a "hand puppet"
that is getting really good at talking to people while the inner you does
not develop because you are not speaking from the heart. To me this begged
the question: to what extent are women attracted to the REAL me and to what
extent are they attracted to the puppet? Most PUA's will go for whichever
is more likely to get them the lay whether it be the hand puppet or their
real selves and there is plenty of argument for doing that but my feeling
is that if you rely ENTIRELY on the puppet you may get laid, may even get
laid consistently, but you may also be gradually eroding your confidence in
the real you as an attractive person. You need the puppet, you focus on
improving and developing the puppet while you neglect YOURSELF. You may be
standing in the way of the process that will make the REAL you become
someone who is more GENUINELY attractive. THIS is why I too am looking to
phase some of the lying out of my PUing (though I am sure I never will
phase it out completely).
Lying in PU is a good way for beginners to get started. However, the
temptation to stick to what they have gotten used to doing, which may even
be working, may not always be the healthiest choice not only for their PU
success but for their self-esteem and development as a person.

Cliff's Comments:  Do I even have to say that my vote is totally against
lying?  I know that there are guys out there that will say anything to get
what they want (and, frankly, I enjoy reading their stories), but how much
of an accomplishment is it to get what you want by having to be dishonest
and misleading?  That doesn't convince me that the guy's a good PUA, only a
good con artist.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
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This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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