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1 or 2 during a break and 3 or 4 after in his room
9/17/02 1:18:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of
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Cliff's Comments:  Read this next post (which originally appeared in
Mystery's Lounge and is reposted here with permission) from a real
master.  Doc has 9 regular girlfriends that he has had in his "harem" for
the past 6 months.  All of them told him that they "don't share" and he
basically said "ok" and was walking away.  All of them, however, came back
(after all, they had at that point just met him, it wouldn't even be
appropriate for them to insist on an exclusive arrangement so quickly) and
have accepted the situation.  All of them are intelligent, successful
individuals with good careers and lifestyles, and all of them have told him
that when he finally decides to settle down and get serious, that they want
to be the one he does that with.  Hopefully we will hear a lot more from
Doc on his great ideas.

Shield Destroyer
I have tried this out 3 times this week alone, and it works like gold.
Victim: HB player (she once gave 9 AFC's the exact same time and date for
ice-cream, and when they all showed up, she told them that she couldn't
decide which one she liked best and to fight it out amongst themselves -
I meet HB player for drinks after work, show up 30 minutes late. She's
pissed off. I'm totally unapologetic and brush off her attitude that she is
giving me for being late. "Yeah, I'm late. But hey, I'm so busy 'cause I'm
in demand so I took some time out of my busy schedule to be with you. Are
you gonna give me attitude or are we gonna have a great time". Didn't wait
for an answer. Turn my back to her and start convo with this guy across the
restaurant who just ordered the BIGGEST fucking hamburger I've ever seen.
The whole restaurant is laughing at me busting this guys balls and
challenging him to eat the whole thing (I mean it was really huge). The
whole restaurant is now into this and cheering this guy on to finish this
Monster burger.  HB player changes attitude and is now laughing along with
everyone, so I turn back my attention to her. And I start convo about "This
guy with the burger is awesome. I respect his courage to try pushing his
limits like that . This is wild, bigger than life - this guys hamburger
blah, blah, ......what was the wildest most daring thing you've ever done?"
(I've now told her what I value - daring, not afraid of challenge,
intensity - and I am challenging her to meet my values.) Now she is totally
into this. She scubas, maybe skydive one day, etc.... Go into Discovery
Channel story "this guy on Discovery who designs amusement park rides....
wanna know what the most important things are in designing a new
ride....."  She is also a shrink so we were exchanging stories about weird
patients (yeah, shrinks talk about their patients for fun) and she tells me
the weirdest experience was of a patient of hers who once ejaculated in her
office while talking to her just by fantasizing about her. I was killing
myself laughing and busted her balls about being able to make men cum with
no contact. So I start teasing her: "You must be good. I wonder if it would
work on me. I mean, I've been with some great lovers, but nobody has ever
made me cum without actually touching me. Ha ha."  I cut it short right
there after about 1 hour cause I'm getting kind of bored and don't want to
stale out. So I get up and put my jacket on without saying a word. She's
confused and asks if I'm leaving. I say "That was great but I gotta go...
come with me".  Walk out of lounge holding hands. As I go in for a kiss
close she pulls back.  I laugh "so all of a sudden you're shy" (Remember,
this girl is a real player and eats AFCs alive all the time. So I try
again. "Wanna kiss me?"  She pushes me back smiling cause now she knows she
is in control and starts saying good bye and walking away. Problem is she
is still holding my hand, saying good bye and pulling me as she walks away.
I start laughing at her out loud and she asks why I'm laughing.  So I say
"you're funny. I think you don't really know what you want or you don't
have the courage to really take a risk cause you tell me you don't want to
kiss me and then say good bye, but you won't let go of my hand and are
pulling me towards you. What's up with that? ha ha ha."  HB answers "I'm
not sure I want to be intimate with you yet".  I say "Intimate? I'm not
that easy. I am very selective about who I chose to be intimate with, and
that person has to have a lot to offer. I mean, I don't just want some fast
food sex with someone who is only about looks... I want a gourmet meal that
is going to be a sensual experience with someone who can turn me on body,
mind and soul. And frankly I don't know that you are that type of person
... You really haven't given me any reason to even WANT to be intimate with
you!"  HB "Then why are you here with me?"  Me "Do you think that just
because I accept to go out with you means that I want to sleep with you..HA
HA. That's pretty chauvinistic. Could you imagine if a guy said that "Just
cause the girl is out on a date with me means that she wants to sleep with
me..." You're pretty macho for a girl..a real chauvinist pig."  Instantly
she is floored. I don't think that anyone has ever turned this girl down in
her entire life.... for ANYTHING. Especially not for sex. I can see the
hamsters in her head spinning in overtime... she has never had this
situation. She has always pushed guys away. She is in damage control
now.  She breaks a long silence (I never broke eye contact with her). She
says "I have to admit, I feel so vulnerable right now. I don't know what to
do. I mean I like you a lot but I'm afraid that I'll lose you if I don't do
the right thing. Don't pull back ok?"  Then she leans in for the kiss and
invites me to her place.  I turn her down and say, "maybe next time, I'm
not sure about you yet". She calls me the same night and asks me to come
over again (testing to see if she can regain control). Turn her down again.
She's disappointed and now she's losing me, so I throw in "I have some free
time tomorrow at noon, bring lunch and you could come by my place". Closed
the deal there and fucked her at my place.


Matthew A:
Comments for Carlos: Sexual Ecstasy is when all your body, your soul and
your heart is in on the sexual moment.
Matthew A.:  By sexual moment, are you referring to orgasm, or the act of
making love?
Yesterday I received a book of NLP called Know How by Leslie
Cameron-Bandler and found a chapter on sex.
In this chapter, Leslie Cameron-Bandler talks about 3 things:
1. Your beliefs or complex equivalence about sex should be congruent with
the enjoyment of it.
Complex equivalences as sex = natural, sex = expression of love, sex =
As with any other action or behavior, if you are not being congruent with
your belief system, you are not enjoying what you are doing.
2. Attending to sensation in the outgoing present. She talks about a state
of being HERE AND KNOW in UP TIME.  In the moment.
3. Flexibility in order to change your behavior in order to fulfill the
criteria for pleasure of your partner.
I would add, "with boundaries." Recently, I have been reading Peter J.
Carroll about the over-stimulation (whether it be pleasure or pain,) and
how that leads to a destructive, self-sabotaging attitude towards the rest
of one's life, because you become obsessed with INSTANT GRATIFICATION. (My
read.)  She also outlines a complete exercise called "Arousing your Interest".
In this book I found all that I wanted regarding using NLP for better sex.
> If I were you, I would focus on gaining MORE PLEASURE with what is
already there. Hyper-Emperia, Hypnosis for Sex, and you mentioned becoming
multi-orgasmic, and to that I recommend "The Multi-Orgasm Man" written by
Mantak Chia. I don't know if you are interested in Tantric practices. If
you are curious, start with some simple reading and judge for yourself.
Carlos: I do have the Hyper-sex book and haven't used their info yet. I
haven't found any book about Hypnosis for Sex. Could you send me some names?
That NLP book seemed to be what you needed.
Regarding Being Multi-orgasmic. I bought a book by a Venezuelan Sexual
Doctor that has a complete program of exercises. I am gonna begin the
program with the help of this doctor.
You can find info on:  I'd love to hear what
you think about it.


> Maximillian Hell: Relationships and the paranormal are not the same
thing. I never disputed that they might be into relationships--you might
note that Mystery keeps those two categories separate.

GameMaster: Paranormal is the wrong word. It has a bad connotation and
conjures up all sorts of visuals and keys the imagination in a negative
way, much like the misunderstood word "occult" which simply means things
that can't be explained by accepted scientific methods. All religions are
occult sciences, basically. I've personally found that relationships and
mutual interest in things metaphysical can thrive as long as there is an
intellectual interest on your partner's behalf to allow such a thing. I've
had girlfriends that were completely fascinated by all this stuff and
literally lived for the next mental exercise that permitted them to walk to
the edge of society in this manner. I used to avoid these topics with girls
I have already slept with but I really need people in my circle that
connect with the full range of things I'm interested in so I've been
pushing the dark side lately with amazingly positive results....even with
my little Sunday School teacher girlfriend. Again, not too many limits to a
woman's curiosity and depravity after you've fucked em'.


Ross & GameMaster (old comments begin with ">", new ones don't):
> GameMaster: 1) I don't hate women, in fact l love women....even adore
some on my frequent call list if you won't hold that word against me.
However, I will not allow myself to be shocked or surprised by anything
they do in a relationship.

Ross: Why isn't this sound advice for ALL humans, men or women?
GameMaster: Because life is NOT some idealistic joyride to Baskin Robbins
everyday with people who are sworn for life to love, nurture, and protect
your emotional health that's why.
> GameMaster: Just because I refuse to buy into the new wave of liberal
tolerance and mandated "love your brother man" bullshit doesn't mean I'm
incapable of sustaining a very intimate relationship with someone that
qualifies under my strictly enforced rules! My world, my rules. Shoot me.
And one of my rules is that once the rules have been established, the "One
Strike" rule is in effect.

Ross: Well, I'm surely no liberal. I do think what the thinker thinks, the
prover proves. If you go along, and your first and primary sorting criteria
is "hotness" to the sole exclusion of everything else, then you are likely
to select people who move towards whatever is most stimulating in their
environment.  I keep trying to make this point: it isn't that these people
are heartless (though that is one way to look at it), it is that they only
notice what stimulates them most.  Of course then, once you cease to be
that, they will move on to something else.  I am 100% in favor of
recognizing, clearly, whom you are dealing with and how they act in the
world. I just think it is more accurate to view strippers, emotionally
disturbed women who adore drama, etc. as being stimulation junkies more
than "heartless cunts".  I also think there is a relationship between ADD
(attention deficit disorder) and women who seek out pain, abuse, etc. etc.
They need this additional level of stimulation just to feel awake! I would
call it RADD (Romantic Attention Deficit Disorder).  If a guy enjoys
stimulation, great. If he enjoys it to the exclusion of other things
entirely (companionship, friendship, fun, etc.) then great too.  Just be
aware of the other things that come along with such a lifestyle.

GameMaster: One must be a liberal tree hugger in order to understand all
this "thinker thinking prover proving" stuff. Like a lot of what Wilson
writes it doesn't make any sense. I move towards people that are compatible
with my environment...WHAT THE MOVER MOVES, THE DOESER DOES! Women that
seek out pain and abuse are IMHO on the average very hot. And I've never
seen anyone experience RADD while they had a dick in their ass. Doesn't
matter if Uncle Bob got there first or not.
> GameMaster: 3) "GameMaster is a spiritually unclean alcoholic and drug
abuser." I thought this discussion forum was about women and seduction?

Ross: I'm just pointing out something: every human wants stimulation. SOME
humans have an excessive need for it and they tend to select others who
have excessive needs for it. Often, that excessive need extends to other
things that aren't healthy.

GameMaster: Science has proven that certain recreational chemicals have
permanent positive lasting effects on not only the brain, but your
consciousness as well. For example, Robert Anton Wilson himself enjoyed a
regular diet of the same regimen endorsed by Dr. Leary in the 60's. How do
you think he comes up with all this 23rd Century stuff anyway? Must be
ginkgo or something, huh? Humans were not put on this planet to suffer the
limited use of our collectively de-evolved 5% of their neurocircuits
although we have all been programmed to believe that's the way things are.
Native Americans figured this out a long time ago. Any disagreement with
their "excessive religious" ceremonies? The only thing that's unhealthy in
this equation is the public brainwashing that teaches that consciousness
raising facilitators like MDMA, LSD, Psylicybin, Mescalin, and other
naturally derived brain boosters are unhealthy. They aren't. I'm not
endorsing anything here, just bashing the horseshit disinformation the
public has been fed for the last 35 years since the positive "awareness"
effects of these chemicals have on the general public became a target for


>>Vinigarr: Let me tell you this; chicks are into the paranormal, the
unknown, relationships, psychic phenomena, astrology, etc. etc.
>Maximillian Hell: Relationships and the paranormal are not the same
thing. I never disputed that they might be into relationships--you might
note that Mystery keeps those two categories separate.

Mystery: I agree the two are separate but I do my best to relate the two
together into the same story. Like the Spells Opener and the additional
Spells Story: how my friend met a girl who was a witch. Getting back to the
point though, if I only talk about relationships I don't evoke much
CURIOUSITY (which makes the girl begin to qualify and chase ME). I must be
MYSTERIOUS, open a lot of conversational threads (multi-thread theory) and
consciously NOT close them (open loop theory). "Do you know what happened
next? Oh hold on a sec my friend wants me for a sec." Cliffhang your
convo-threads on PURPOSE! This is ONE way to build CURIOUSITY from your
Mystery but it's a small piece of the puzzle. She won't hang around to let
you BEGIN the threads if you don't talk about something she strongly
believes in, right? Now this is where the TRUTH OF OUR CULTURE must come
into play. THOUGHT CONTAGIONS. More people believe in God than don't in our
culture, right? And God is for many people SUPERNATURAL. She is more likely
to buy into ANGELS and HEAVEN and SOULS too if she is buys the GOD THEORY.
Once ONE supernatural belief is placed in her head (by her parents most
likely seeing as most religious people got their beliefs from mom and dad),
the LOGICAL FALLACY that let it in lets them ALL IN (or many more at the
very least). From MY EXPERIENCE in the field (think about the AMOUNT of
experience I have seriously, just QUANTIFYING it would STAGGER some of
you), I have discovered MOST women believe in God. Is that sad? From a
humanist perspective it sure is scary. And with that comes all the others
... ghosts and souls and angels and chi energy and witches and vampires.
They are THOUGHT CONTAGIONS (viruses of the mind). Don't HATE the girl or
call her LOW QUALITY because she was raised in our CRAZY CULTURE. Mirror
her beliefs at first (be interested in the supernatural, too) and LATER you
can tell her you've been having some doubts and then explain why. This way,
you first convey mystery building curiosity which allows you more time to
convey your personality. She becomes fascinated by all you know about the
things she ALREADY believes in and then you get in a relationship and you
throw doubt into it all. If you DON'T first convey mystery ... you don't
build curiosity ... and you don't get a chance to convey enough personality
for her to choose to see you a second time. And you don't get in a
relationship and you don't have a chance to give her the doubt she needs by
showing her the logical fallacies that exist in her believing in all the
nonsense. So what is the entire point of this train of thought? This: If
you look only for the SMART girls, you'll be a very lonely boy.
>Cliff's Comments: Do I even have to say that my vote is totally against
lying? I know that there are guys out there that will say anything to get
what they want (and, frankly, I enjoy reading their stories), but how much
of an accomplishment is it to get what you want by having to be dishonest
and misleading? That doesn't convince me that the guy's a good PUA, only a
good con artist.

Mystery Replies: I'm an stage illusionist and therefore blur the line
between fiction and reality on a daily basis. If a beautiful woman
witnesses first hand my levitating her beer bottle between her hands, she
will ask, "how'd you do that?" Now, I have a choice to tell the truth or
not. If I say, "I don't know", I'm actually lying because I DO know! (It's
called The Power-Levitation Principle ~ see the vid clip at under the "WHO IS MYSTERY?" question on my MM FAQ.)
An illusionist LIVES lies. Am I as FAMOUS as I PRETEND to be? NO FUCKING
WAY! But do I APPEAR to be famous when I meet a girl? Sure thing. How?
Well, I have a crowd around me for one (but not always). I dress like a
star (but not always). I act like one (but not always). I sign autographs
(but not always). I hang with cool people, sometimes with real celebrities
(but not always). I mingle with hot women and act like I'm used to it (and
strangely, I think now I actually AM). If I go to an exotic dance club, the
manager ends up shaking my hand, telling me I'm incredible and buying me a
drink. Women and MEN buy me drinks every night. My stories include the
famous cool friends I know (I faked it til I actually met them and appeared
interesting enough to them to talk to me ~ and sometimes even date me). My
stories include my stories of my travels and my stage work. I show photos
of me with famous people, of my stage shows and now even video clips on my
Sony Clie Palm Pilot of my stage show, my talk show appearances and
documentaries. It took a long time to compile all this. Is it all TRUE?
Well, yes but it's not true that I'm really as famous as I APPEAR to be due
to the momentum of showing all this at ONCE. This took YEARS to compile. It
took a lot of effort to create my image. All my stories are based on
reality NOW. For instance, I don't use the Ricky Lake Opener ... only
because I now have better stories. They are more interesting because I
endeavor to LIVE an INTERESTING LIFE. Did I start out interesting? Nope. So
how does one convey an adventurous lifestyle is one does not LIVE IT? You
can CREATIVELY IMAGINE that you have one and can GROW INTO IT.
Women believe I can levitate objects. Can I REALLY? Well, as an
illusionist, I can't say I can levitate things. But I of course don't say
it's NOT real. Is this ... a LIE? Am I a ... CON artist for this? Or ... am
I simply a PERFORMING artist?
Am I really even a PERFORMING ARTIST? Or do I just PRETEND I AM and
convince people to book my show? And then I perform it and they pay me and
say thank you so much. Did I CON THEM into thinking I'm a performer?
So long as you deliver the goods, then its not a con. But how does someone
BE famous before they ARE? They FAKE IT til they MAKE IT. How does one be a
ladies man before they are one? We must also FAKE having an adventurous
life until we can LIVE IT. You LIE about your travels first and then you
get so used to the lies that you begin to feel weird if you DON'T travel
more. Women LOVE a man of travel. When you say, "I'm leaving in 2 days to
go back to my city", isn't it strange that you have MORE CHANCE of getting
her? You'd figure saying you live in the same city would make her want you
more. After all, if it works out, she wants you to live close to her,
right? But that isn't the case strangely. So ... you LIE. And when you
actually travel ... you DON'T LIE. Haaa, I have a solution. When she asks,
"what do you do?" you say, "I'm a liar." SOLVED.

Cliff's Comments: I think there's a big difference between revealing
magicians' secrets and lying - I think that it should be clear that the
lying we are talking about are things like when she asks you if you have a
GF and you say no when you do.  These are relevant subjects.  I don't think
there's anything wrong with telling someone you don't want to tell them
something (eg. how you did that trick).  I don't think you really lie
either - unless you tell them it is real magic and that you learned it on a
trip to India where you met a fakir, etc. etc.  Conning is when you tell
them what you think they want to hear when it may have nothing to do with
the truth.  Your comment about saying "I'm a liar" actually reminds me of
an interesting story.  A girl I was seeing had a friend who met this
guy.  In their early conversations, he told her friend that he's a
liar.  He didn't apologize for it, just made it as sort of his failing and
something he has to live with (and her, too, by implication).  You'd think
that she'd dump him (in line with all those admonitions about how they are
looking for honesty) but no, she dated him for some time.  I didn't get any
further stories about this, but I can imagine that anytime he got himself
in a box he already had his story all set up.
>Justin: The thing that I am most curious about is how Mystery and other
people that have similar styles can do these routines and stories on girls
or even groups in a club. The music is so loud I have to be almost yelling
so my wingman can hear me. It seems to me that the best way to do things at
a club is to just walk up and grab/dance with a girl and make some fun
small talk and be done with talking. How do you guys do it???

Mystery: There are several solutions to this. Firstly, clubs ARE the place
to be because there are SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES in a small area. You have
many groups not only to cut the time between sets and thereby increase your
experience but also to allow the social proof created by being the center
of groups to assist you in opening the groups you approach next.
There IS a noise problem. There are solutions to this too:
1) Stay away from the speakers. Don't approach girls who can't hear you.
There are LOTS of girls on the dance floor sure but you can't convey your
personality to them because your weapon/instrument is your voice. Sure
there are less girls OFF the dance floor, but there are MORE WORTHY GIRLS
THERE than at bus stops.
2) Keep to the quieter LOUNGING AREAS of the club. There are always quieter
3) Peacock. Dress to stand out and not fit in. This conveys your confidence
and personality above the noise.
4) Socialize. When you approach a group after just being IN a group, your
open is MUCH easier to obtain. They see you with women and are not
threatened by you when you approach.
5) The music is an INVISIBLE CURTAIN that can change a 5set into a 2set.
What I mean is, you can only talk and have 2 people hear you in the group.
That's ok. You don't have to engage the ENTIRE group ... unless one of the
others joins in and then you must switch over to disarming that person.
How? "Hey man, Sally here was telling me that she thinks Poltergeist was
based on reality. What's YOUR take on it, bro?" Bring the obstacles into
the convo but only when they are within earshot.
7) Befriend the peergroup by going around to each in turn if necessary. By
doing this you are actively ignoring the target. Put something in the
target's hand to keep her there so she doesn't run off while you are
engaging each person in convo. Like a rune pouch or your photos (photo
routine). Finally you will be able to say, "can I talk with your friend for
a bit?" as you point to the target? They will say "sure, if it's ok with
her".  This is PERFECT because now you can ISOLATE your target from the
group and already have peer group acceptance.  So not only will NOBODY bug
you when you are with your target on the couch, but the ignoring her but
being the life of the party will make her desire to get your attention. AND
she thinks all her friends like you so you are IN.
8) When you ISOLATE your target from her peer group, sit somewhere QUIETER!
If all this seems impossible, email ANY of the guys who was seen me in
action LIVE. Their email addy's are found on my FAQ (

Mystery on building a stable: It's funny, that we have to review the basics
because we forget. I used to tell everyone that. START with 7s and 8s and
then when you have them, upgrade.  Push out the lower girls for the hotter
girls as you go. Now, I guess I gave this advice like it was for NEWBIES or
something. No. It's for experienced guys, too. If they have NO women again
for some reason, it's time to start with 7s and 8s. I mean if you cant FIND
10s, still enjoy the pursuit of the lesser girls and get your MOMENTUM going.

Cliff's Comments:  I think a little qualifying what is a "10" is worth
mentioning.  There are a number of different things I would like to
mention.  Firstly, it's funny how attractive women become when they want to
fuck you.  Secondly, I am sure you've run into women that, while they may
not be 10's they may exude a powerful sexual aura and you really want to do
them even though they aren't 10's (the point is, that you should not rule
out a woman only because maybe she won't be rated so highly by your peers
as she may really do it for you in other ways).  Thirdly, I think everyone
has different ideas of what a "10" is - for example, I seem to remember you
remarking somewhere that to you Winona Ryder was a "10" and she would be
barely an "8" to me.  So then, what is a 10?

Mystery: I feel SO MUCH BETTER when I go out. I had an old friend visit and
I and No9 went out last night. Not far, just to a club near here. It was a
stank hole with nothing of my quality til I saw ONE girl at the bar. I
approached. It was GREAT FUN. She was once a 10. I mean a REAL TEN. but she
was 34 now so it was just starting to lower her rating, but still, hot. And
she knew it. The negging was killer haaa. "You perfume smells like ... my
mother." "Ever go rolling blading? Yeah, maybe it's a good thing you don't
anymore. you might break your hip." "You need gum," etc.  She was negging
my hat. "You are a handsome guy, but that ugly hat has got to go." "I hate
that hat." "Your black nails make you look like you are living in
1989."  She was FUN. I TOTALLY wrapped her around my finger though her BF
was the bartender. I isolated her from him and her friends after
befriending them all (not the BF as he was busy) and we were cuddling as I
did the evolution script. She was so into me but at the close she didn't
bite because of the boyfriend but it was like she wanted my contact info
"if they have a brakeup: or something." I didn"t but it was great to work a
10. It's SO DIFFERENT than regular girls. Neg theory was DESIGNED for the
10s. and it WORKS! I went home alone ... but the set was a great success
IMHO. I went in not knowing and came out knowing she was taken (for real)
... and in the process, was able to make her attracted to me (it was quite
clear). In fact, my game is now polished to go for HBs
specifically.  That's why I don't enjoy engaging Bs ... I over-qualify
myself and blow myself out with some of my shit.


Mark B.:
I have been using only positive things to do and say to women in the past
week on two women and both of them kissed me first without me even trying.
This shit works. See last letter.
I have been reading The Dirt, autobiography of Motley Crue. There all
members of the band including their managers as well as a few others
discuss some of the more interesting moments in the life of the band. The
lead singer, Vince Neil, would sometimes fuck as many as 20 women per day.
He would line up groupies against a wall and then fuck them all like an
obstacle course. During a more regular day, he would fuck a couple of girls
before a concert, one or two during a break during the concert and three or
four after in his room. He fucked his manager's girlfriend while he waited
right outside his trailer for him to come out. On the Motley Crue jet he
was forbidden to fuck the stewardess as well as her from fucking him. He
fucked her anyway in the bathroom. Once while riding in a helicopter to a
concert he had a bottle of Jack on one hand while a blond head bobbed up
and down in his lap. He fucked all of the girlfriends of all his band
member as well. His technique was not talk to women or try to seduce them
with words but simply "bend them over, take off their pants and fuck them".
Granted he is Vince Neil of Motley Crue but I also have found that most of
the time it is useless to ask a woman to fuck or to do anything sexual. You
just have to initiate the action, touch her, kiss her, undress her and
start fucking her without asking. If she is not into it then she will stop
you. If she wants to get fucked she will let you go on without saying
anything. It seems as though they do not want to admit they want to get
fucked as that would make them look trashy but deep down inside they know
they want it but want to absolve themselves of the responsibility to not
saying anything but simply allowing you to do it to her.

Now we all think that being in a Motley Crue type of band guarantees
success with women or that if you do not have a bad boy image you do not
have a chance with gorgeous women. Tommy Lee waited almost two months
before Heather Locklear fucked him. And even then she would not do
everything in bed. When he met Pamela Lee he had to ask her 10 times for
her number before she gave it to him. Then he called her for 6 weeks
straight while she told him she was too busy to see him. She then told him
she had some time and told him to meet him in a hotel lobby at 6 PM. He
arrived and waited until 2 am. She never showed up. He called her and she
told him that she was flying to Mexico for a shoot and that she will see
him when she gets back. When he told her he would follow her down there she
insisted that he does not. He went anyway, found her in Cancun where she
finally relented. They were married four days later on the beach as you may
all remember. Later after their kids were born she ignored him and in an
attempt to get attention one night after months of neglect, he began
throwing pots and pans around the house. She punched him, called the police
and had him arrested for assault. He was sentenced to 6 months in jail out
of which he sent her love letters begging for her forgiveness even though
he did not touch her. All the while she was fucking some former boyfriend
behind his back. Tommy Lee AFC? Hell yeah.

Another band member Nikki Sixx had his wife cheat on him and while he
undertook divorce proceedings. Pam Lee set him up with Donna Doricco or
something like that (a member of the Baywatch cast). On their first date,
they drive to his mansion where they got drunk and fucked all night. In the
morning, he woke up and found her gone. She said all this was too much for
her to handle. And we thought Rock Stars had it easy. He called her later
where she reluctantly agreed to see him. They dated for a while after that.
Moral to me is that all men, no matter how rich or famous still have to
deal with female reluctance, uncertainty and all other issues they bring to
the table and regardless of who you are with some persistence and work I
believe anyone can have the hottest babes.


I am looking for a diet would bring calmness and health. I'm actually
looking for some dieting tips, seeing that I have noticed a correlation
between what I eat and my emotional states especially in relation to
feeling good to go after women. Any comments?


Seven Unexpected Keys to a Happy Marriage
John Gottman has a 90% success rate at picking out which couples will get
divorced and which couples won't.  He has identified 7 keys to an effective
marriage.  I think # 4 is especially interesting for members of this list.

So many of these guys are so concerned about hoops, supplication, neging,
power, and David D'Angelo's always say "NO" principle (LTR suicide) that
they are hurting themselves.  I think the subject of achieving balance here
can lead to some interesting and useful discussion.  Many people also need
to understand that the tactics and communication skills that get you laid
initially often have to evolve over time if you want an LTR or want to keep
getting laid by the same person.  I think this could be a good discussion

The Seven Unexpected Keys to a Happy Marriage

(Note: While these keys were originally identified in the context of
marriage, they have been found equally valid in creating other forms of
"long-term stable romantic relationships". Stop snickering in the back of
the class... :-)

If I ask you to imagine a laboratory, chances are you will envision long
granite tables, Bunsen burners, test tubes, and white coated technicians.
But the laboratory set up by Dr. John Gottman at the University of
Washington to study marriage and what makes a long-term romantic
relationship sustainable is a little bit different.

Essentially, Dr. Gottman's lab is a comfortable apartment (with one way
mirrors!) where couples interact for 12 hours a day over the course of a
weekend. After studying hundreds of couples in both the "apartment lab" and
a more traditional facility which has become affectionately known as "the
love lab", Dr. Gottman has a 90% accuracy rate in predicting divorce!

Fortunately, he has also turned his hand to identifying what makes
successful marriages work, and has identified seven key traits of a happy
marriage. While one or two of these may fall under the category of "duh"
(key number 7 could essentially be translated as "say more nice things to
each other"), many of them are surprising and remarkably easy to apply.

1. Seek Help Early

The average time a couple in distress waits before first seeking outside
help is six years; 1/2 of the marriages which end do so in the first seven

Do the math, and if you need to, get outside help. In the UK, you might
consider trying Relate (; I was unable to find a
centralized service in the US, but found some interesting resources at

2. Edit Yourself

Perhaps surprisingly, happy couples do not necessarily express everything
they are feeling when they are feeling it, particularly when feeling anger.

This does not, however, have to lead to inauthenticity and partial
communication. As my friends and fellow life coaches Scott Wintrip and Jay
Perry say, you can learn to "say what you mean without saying it mean."

3. Soften your "Start-Up"

One of the traits that has proved a reliable indicator of the state of a
marriage is how quickly an argument starts up. If you and your partner can
go from calm to at each others throats faster than a sports car goes from 0
to 60, take a look at what triggers the "explosions" and do what you can to
build in a pause between stimulus and response.

(The value of "counting to 10" before responding may seem to be an old
wives' tale, but perhaps it explains why the women who told them were still
wives, even at their age... :-)

4. Accept Influence

In what has to qualify as my wife's favorite key, Gottman's research shows

"A marriage succeeds to the extent that the husband can accept influence
from his wife... A husband's ability to be persuaded by his wife (rather
than vice-versa) is so crucial because, research shows, women are already
well practiced at accepting influence from men, and a true partnership only
occurs when a husband is able to do so as well."

This isn't to say that you need to become a doormat for the whims of your
spouse, as is borne out by key number five...

5. Have High Standards

While the research has shown that "the lower the level of tolerance for bad
behavior in the beginning of a relationship, the happier the couple is down
the road", it's not too late to raise the bar on your relationship.

If you want to find out more about setting and enforcing boundaries within
a loving relationship, check out Stand Up for Your Life by Cheryl
Richardson or for a specifically Christian perspective, Boundaries in
Marriage by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.

6. Learn to Repair and Exit the Argument

In the movie "Overboard", spoiled heiress Goldie Hawn finds herself having
to care for plumber Kurt Russell's five sons. When he comes home and asks
how her day went, she is only capable of uttering one word - "Erp!". For
several couples I know, the word "Erp!" has become their signal to one
another that they have had enough (for the moment) and need a time out from
even the most "productive" argument.

Set up a signal with your partner (possibly from a favorite comedy show or
movie) that either of you can use to interrupt the pattern of an argument
and give you both a chance to "go to the balcony" and re-evaluate the
importance of what it is you are arguing about in the context of your

If it really matters, (and of course it occasionally does), you can
re-start the discussion when you are feeling re-connected with one another.

7. Focus on the Bright Side

Stephen R. Covey talks about each partner in a relationship having an
"emotional bank account". Happy relationships are happy at least in part
because both people's emotional bank accounts are in credit.

Find out from your partner what constitutes a deposit (often kind words and
supportive actions) and what constitutes a withdrawal. As a general rule,
seek to make at least five deposits for every withdrawal, and be aware that
if things haven't been going well for a while, it may take some time for
you to pay off your emotional overdraft!

Today's Experiment:
A simple if not necessarily easy experiment today - discuss the seven keys
with your partner! Listen to, understand, speak to be understood, and come
up with an action plan to implement the seven keys into your relationship,
starting today.

For more information, (and some really fun self-tests!), visit or check out The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.

mik***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] (visit the website to register for a free

Cliff's Comments:  While I think that the subject of serious relationships
is one that should be brought up here more often, I think there are some
very unique ideas (as opposed to the rather lame, hit or miss ideas
presented above) out there about how to manage them.  I think that if you
don't take into account the true nature of women, you are one day
ultimately heading for disaster.  I am reminded of GameMaster's story about
how he was seeing this one woman for about 3 years until she finally got
him to do what she wanted and behave as if they were going to have a normal
relationship.  Then she booted - you can't listen to what women say, you
have to pay attention to what they do.  There, she was attracted to the
difficulty, the drama, the project to be worked on, etc. and once it was
finally working out the way she said she wanted it to be, she lost
interest.  Not to say that all women are like this, but I think our high
rate of couples breaking up has a lot to do with men not knowing how to
really manage their relationships.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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