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If this elevator gets stuck, we could be trapped in here for weeks. And then…
11/5/02 7:51:56 PM Eastern Standard Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers,
suggested links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of
what this list is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are
on the website also, as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that
you may be unfamiliar with.


I have a comment on the "BrunoB" item:
This looks reminiscent of the "California Pimp" of NetVideoGirls fame. A
few things are strange though:
The web site seems very pro.. huge "sponsors" are behind this. It doesn't
really seem to be a guy doing this from his kitchen if you see what I mean.
If these are "real" girls you can pick up in a bar, why do they use "stage"
names such as "Lexus", "Nicky", or "Shelby"? Could it be to protect their
identity :-) (a mask on their face would make a better job at that!)
If I were filming a chick giving me a blow job, I doubt I would stick my
eye directly into the viewfinder. I would probably let her see my face and
use the LCD screen on the camera to frame. But have you ever noticed these
girls never look at the GUY but look directly at the CAMERA? If you were a
total amateur fucking some guy, wouldn't you look at him sometimes?
There is a big difference between paying a woman for sex and having her
accept to show her face covered with cum broadcast on the net forever. I've
had friends who would strip for money while in college with little chance
of ruining any future career.. (unless they decided to run for congress
that is). Unless a girl decides to work in the adult business, I doubt that
a couple of grand would make her sign off her "reputation" forever at the
bottom of a big fat release form.
Can you just imagine the level of harassment a college chick would be
subjected to if any one of her thousands of acquaintances found her xxx
footage and started forwarding it around campus?
Since you live over there, it would be great if you could meet one of these
girls and get her side of the story? That I would be very interested in..

Cliff's Comment:  Something came up about this that I want to make very
clear.  While it is flattering that some of you are looking at everything
mentioned here as almost a recommendation ("as seen on Cliff's List"), I
don't have the time or the energy to check out most of the new products,
books, etc. that are mentioned here.  I tell you about what has come across
my screen and hope that one of you (at least) will check it out and report
back for the rest of us. is a good example.  Someone thought I
had recommended the site when the only thing that happened was that I got a
spam email about this, visited the free parts of his site, and reported
about what I found interesting here.  I never recommended it and hopefully
people will realize that any product I recommend will be clearly marked as
such.  As for getting in touch with Brunob or one of these girls, I really
haven't the time to go search out some anonymous woman who got paid to have
sex on the net.  As for Bruno, I did send him an invite to subscribe to
these emails but he never responded.


Zan (More reposts from Mystery's Lounge):
Haha, I dressed as Zorro for a Halloween party. It was a lot of fun. Here's
a tip, guys. You want to get women? Dress as Zorro! lol - I was surrounded
all night. I kissed 9 girls that night. And even though I had two of my
girlfriends at the party, I still took a new girl I just met home with me
(a witch - no pic). When you are Zorro, you can get away with anything.

DrJay:  You did it snuck a little nugget in your other
thread--a Zanism if you will.

"And even though I had two of my girlfriends at the party, I still took a
new girl I just met home with me (a witch - no pic)."

Can you say more about this? How did you get away with this? There is a LOT
more here you could share with us about managing this many girls
(personally, I start to run in to trouble with 2)! Do you specify rules
upfront? How do you deal with jealousy? How do you establish expectations,

Zan: Ha ha, DrJay, lemme explain.  The night of the Halloween party (last
Saturday), one of my MLTRs (Sarah) came over to my house to help me get
dressed up as Zorro. She didn't want to come to the party because she
couldn't find a costume and besides her Dad was visiting her from out of
town so she wanted to spend some time with him. Fair enough.

While Sarah was helping me become Zorro, my cell phone rang and it was
Lane, a girl that I used to see a couple of months ago. I quit seeing her
however, because she started to piss and moan about me not being exclusive
with her - "All you want to do is sleep with me! (wail)"

So I ditched her with these words (said calmly and evenly): "Lane, you're a
nice girl and I like you, but shut the hell up. Every time you come to see
me lately, you're in a foul mood. I happen to be in a great mood and you
are bringing me down. I don't have time for this. Go home and call me again
when you want to have a fun time." Or something like that.

So I haven't seen her too much lately. Anyway, she phoned me and said she
was going to the party as well and "would I give her a ride?" Sure, why
not? I walked Sarah to her car, then I went and picked up Lane.

When we got to the party, Michelle was there. And so was Janice, another
girl I see fairly often. Lots of people. Lots of costumes. I ditched Lane
and started to work the room. The way I work a party like this is to never
stay still for too long. I hooked up with a couple buddies and the three of
us started to move through the crowd. I made sure that when I flirted with
other girls, I did it in the open - in front of Michelle and the others.
They don't like it, but hey, I warned them what I was all about.


ZAN: Michelle, your costume is cool! You look fucking ravishing! I think
I'll take you home tonight and have my way with you. (smile, wink)


"Hi, sweetie, I'm Zan. What are you supposed to be? A clown?"
"No, a geisha..." (disappointed look)
"Oops, my mistake. What's your name?"


"Hi Janice. You miss me? Are you coming to see me again soon?"
"No, call one of your other girlfriends." (sticks her tongue out at me)
(acting wounded) "But you are my favorite girlfriend. All my other
girlfriends are ugly! Come see me..."


"Hey, are you Zorro?"
"No, why does everybody keep asking me that? I'm actually Zorro's brother,
Ernie. Who are you under that costume? You're kinda cute."

And so forth. I just kept moving around the room from girl to girl. If I
didn't know her, I would put my arm around her and introduce myself to her.
If I did know her, I would put my arm around her and whisper in her ear.

It was a lot of fun. Cool thing about girls in costumes - zero bitch
shield. At one point, Michelle asked me (and she was serious) to go with
her to the bathroom and get with her. I pretended I didn't hear her -
because I knew she was a sure thing to take home later. And besides I
wanted to meet a few more of these hot girls! This pissed her off a little
and a short while later, Michelle and her friend took off without me.

The girl I eventually took home was dressed as a witch - and she was part
of a 4-set who were all dressed as witches. I befriended the group. And
flirted with all of them. One of her friends kept running her hand inside
my Zorro shirt, but I liked the other one. So I just did a standard
isolation on the witch I liked, and asked if she wanted to come to my house
for a drink after. "Bring your friends, if they want to come." They didn't,
but she did. And so it goes.

This witch was cute with a nice body (once I got the witch costume off),
but her and her friends were just visiting from out of town. So don't know
when I'll see her again. Oh well.

I called Michelle the next day, and she came over and spent Sunday night
with me. Even when I ignore her and flirt with other girls and piss her
off, she still loves me.

That's all I remember.

So DrJay, how do I manage this many girls? And how do I deal with jealousy?
I dunno. It ain't easy. They get pissed off at me all the time. But for
some reason, they keep coming back  I tell them straight up how I am and
that I they will get hurt if they stay with me. Because I can't commit.
Some girls don't like this - and split. But other girls still stay with me.
They know I am a womanizer and they just shake their heads. And then they
come see me again. They know I adore them. I don't know the answer exactly.

One thing I never, ever do is defend myself. If a girl says she's heard I'm
a player, I just smile and wink at her. I don't say I'm not and I don't say
I am. Let her think whatever.

(And another gem from Zan:)
Here's my take on supplication as it relates to the development of a PUA:
Stage 1: Very AFC, buys dinners, movies, flowers, tries to be charming...
gets few women
Stage 2: Backs off from buying stuff and being too available. Learns not to
supplicate... gets more women
Stage 3: Buys her whatever the fuck he wants - dinners, movies, flowers.
Has grown out of the stage where supplication is an issue. Never thinks
about it again... gets tons of women
(And more:)
One thing I have going for me is that I am fearless around women. My method
is very simple. Every single thing that a girl says or does to me is an
IOI. Period. She wants me. Doesn't matter who she is. And when you believe
that, they start to believe it, too.
I am completely unrestrained with women and having enormous fun. I am a
slave to my love of women. They can sense it. The weakness of women is
language and words. Fortunately, that is one of my strong points. And I act
like they are from Mars if they try to repel my advances. Like it doesn't
make any sense:
ZAN: Come out with me for a drink tonight. I will pick you up at 7.
HER: I can't. My boyfriend wouldn't like it.
ZAN: Oh hey, I understand... let's make it 8 then.
I never, ever worry about a woman's resistance to me. If she says she is
not interested and leaves, no problem. But if I ever see her again, I
immediately go up to her, smile and wink, and pick up right where I left
off. As if she had never resisted me in the first place. In other words,
her boyfriend objections (or whatever) mean nothing to me.
ZAN: (big smile) Hello, sweetie. Did you miss me?
HER: Hardly.
ZAN: I want to see you. Tell me your number and I'll remember it.
HER: No! I told you last time I have a boyfriend.
ZAN: Oh, so you're still seeing Norman?
HER: Uh... his name's not Norman.
ZAN: (smile, wink) Really? That's very interesting. I have two bottles of
champagne at home.
HER: No thanks.
ZAN: One to drink and one to pour all over your body...
HER: You never give up, do you?
ZAN: Of course not! Wouldn't be the same if I did, would it?
HER (laughing) No, I suppose not...
And I never try to defend myself or protect myself from getting a bad name.
I never apologize for being a womanizer. Why? Because a reputation is a
major attraction to women. It's true.
Two more things that happened recently:
A few days ago, I was waiting for an elevator and a very pretty girl was
waiting as well. Of course I said hello and she kind of blushed and said
hello. So we got on the elevator, it started to move and then suddenly the
elevator, for some reason, made a weird little jolt. It kind of shuddered.
Nothing too serious, but you could feel it in the pit of your stomach. I
looked at the girl. She looked at me. Then, pretending to be scared, she
smiled and said, ''Uh... what was that?"
I looked back at her and said "I don't know. But if this elevator gets
stuck, we could be trapped in here for weeks. And then I would have to eat
Hahaha, what a double entendre! Unfortunately, she got off on a different
floor than me and I blew my chance. But I laughed about that comment all day.
The other thing that happened was last Saturday night. I went to a local
pub with a friend and we just happened to meet up with another guy he knew
and the guy's fiancee. And she was gorgeous. We were sitting around a small
round table and the guy's fiancee was beside me on my left. The guy was
across from me and my friend was on my right.
So we were sitting there talking and joking and carrying on. My friend kept
engaging the other guy in conversation, so this girl and I were talking to
each other a fair amount. She told me she was a massage therapist and she
was running her business out of her home. So I said, hey, maybe I should
come over and get a massage sometime. Her boyfriend heard this and started
talking about what a great massage therapist she was and how her business
was just starting to take off and that yeah, I should go get a massage from
her and that I should tell all my friends. lol
So this carried on like that for a while. Friendly banter. And then
suddenly, three glasses of Pinot Noir later, while the other two guys were
talking, she started telling me something or other. I cut her off in
mid-sentence and said, "You realize, of course, that you and I are going to
get together..." I said this with a dead serious look on my face.
She looked absolutely stunned. She stared at me with her mouth open. Then
after about 5 seconds, she quietly whispered, "Yes"
Ha, I have her card and I am going to call her. But this is what I mean by
considering everything as an IOI. It has enormous power.


(Commenting on Zan's post): STOP! If you're good looking enough to have had
a paid career as a model, why should ANYONE who isn't in the same
looks-league listen to you, since quite likely a HUGE part of your success
is your looks COMBINED with your attitude?  Could an average or even ugly
guy get away with this in your face, "you're going to be my next favorite
girlfriend" stuff? drives me nuts when guys like you, who can get chicks based on
your looks, try to tell us ordinary or even homely guys about what YOU can
do. You haven't a clue as to what WE face, anymore than a guy who is 6 foot
6, 350 pounds of solid muscle can advise a scrawny, tiny guy how to win in
a bar fight. "I just punch 'em once, and they fold".
> Zan: I was AFC. But we did kiss and make out a lot. Fine, fine memories.

Ross: You were AFC and you STILL attracted and made out with an
astonishingly beautiful young woman. So....YOU DID IT ON YOUR LOOKS.
> Nick: The limit of my SS education was & is the Basic SS Homestudy
course. I have been using other models of SS as advised by the Guru himself
("Thanks Ross"), the model of asking structured questions & using the
personal trance words.

Ross: Exactly. As for eliciting values, I haven't recommended that since
1993, unless you are ALREADY banging her. Personal trance-words and
eliciting values are different things entirely.


Dwacon (
(Commenting on: Zan: lol, getting girls to take their tops off is a very
specialized skill. Not for the faint of heart. Ha ha, just kidding. Just
get a digital camera. Start taking pictures and then comment on how feeble
the pictures are. Say something like "Surely you can take sexier pictures
than that!" Then no matter how sexy they try to be, make sure it is never
sexy enough.)

Dwacon: When I was doing the modeling thing, I found that no matter how
adamant a girl was about not wanting to do or be nude (or if she made it a
condition of ONLY if a lot of money was offered) virtually every girl I
photographed got nekkid (two even offered shots of pink) and I never had to
pay a cent.
At the time, I didn't go for much more since I was trying to maintain the
legal status of an employer... but in rethinking, the modeling web site
didn't make a single penny in revenue (and scared off most of the few
paying advertisers we had) since anything involving a picture of a woman
wearing anything sexier than a nun's habit is considered "porn."
Hindsight being 20/20... I should have realized it for what it was.
Of course, I still own the camera and still work with girls who want a
portfolio built. Most photogs charge for this service... I offer it for
free and then invoke Cialdini's rules of reciprocity. But, as Zan says...
it doesn't even take that. So, I applaud Zan for his keen insights on the


(Commenting on Zan's email seduction) It's all fine if Zan just wants to
practice seduction by emails.  But if he wants to get the  result of
sleeping with her, it's not so effective.  But I think he made a tactical
mistake: if he already showed his intent strongly in one or two emails,
then he should stop talking about such things any more and leave her just
wondering about you... because he did it again and again and she just got
tired of that, I think.
As for how he dealt with her keys, he could have said "I'll be over
Thursday evening at 7 pm to your home so unlock your door and I'll     give
them back to you."  I think it'd be much better to let her come to his
house, or just do it and bring her keys back, and they'd probably have had
a wonderful night earlier.


As far as the strip clubs go, there is not that much to tell.  The club
that I just quit advertises as the largest in the State -- with three large
rooms.  In the three months that I worked there, we have had feature
dancers such as Crystal Gunns and Jasmine St. Claire, to name a few.
The owner's son and I were the only two male workers (other than management.)
Everyone there always seemed to be really enjoying themselves.  However,
after day two of week one, I found myself staring more at my watch waiting
for 2 AM than anything else.
I mean, I see the same thing hour after hour, minute after minute.  Have
the same conversations with the same girls night after night.
Some of the girls seem to be very intelligent.  Meanwhile, there are others
who seem like they are totally under the influence of something.  They will
come and hang out by the bar and start talking.  Sometimes the conversation
is so incoherent that I find myself saying, "just go away."  I would say
half of the girls you would not mind getting to know, while the other half
I would not touch with my "50 foot pole." (LOL).  Well, they were always
touching me anyway.
One thing which I notice now, that I did not realize before I started
working there was that some of these young ladies seem like they literally
paint on a tin of paint onto their face.  It's like ten layers of
paint/make-up on their face.
Now as far as their breasts are concern, many of the girls will come by the
bar and they will point to another girl with basketball size breasts and
they will ask me what I think.  These girls all insist that they need to
get breast implants.  However, in my book, most of the girls with the huge
large breast implants just look ridiculous to me.
Now after several weeks of this I am just extremely bored.
By the way, one really funny incident occurred the first week that I worked
there.  I was working the juice bar where all the lap dance and complete
nudity takes place.  My watch said 2 AM and they were trying to get all the
customers out at the end of the night.  However, there was one of the young
ladies giving this guy a lap dance.  Suddenly, one of the managers turned
the lights on so they could get people to leave.  The young lady suddenly
covered up her breast and screamed, "everybody is seeing me!"  So another
girl said to her, "so there is nothing wrong with that."  She responded,
"but, but, my breasts are so small."  Then she grabbed her clothes and ran
out to the dressing room.


Italian speaking puas are welcome to:
(Italian Seductionists)
The list is for RAFC level and up, no newbies admitted. The list is
moderated and membership must be approved. The language is Italian. The
list is for Italian specifics (patterns and the like) and logistics (hot
spots and the like) not of much interest to the global community. If some
good ideas come up they'll be posted on the known seduction resources.


I work as a reporter.  Saturday I covered a high school volleyball
tournament...and the coach of the winning team was attractive enough to
make me not concentrate on work.  She was pleasant enough.  But how would
one go from the professional motions to the seducing motions?  I worry
about getting a bad reputation if I ask for dates and phone numbers on the
job.  Any sales guys here have anything about clients that became close


Red Axe:
Let me tell you about my first success using Speed Seduction». No lay, but
just about. Any feedback would be appreciated, though it couldn't have gone
much better. First of all, this was a girl from my class, that I had been
sitting next to for a couple weeks. I had been playful with her, funny, and
we had some things in common, like interests in horror books and films, so
I had something already there to work with, though it wasn't clear if it
was romantic attraction, or just friendship. One day after class, I told
her we should get together this weekend. She said yes immediately and "what
time?" I set it up and planned for the weekend.
I took her to a coffee place in town. It was a nice one. We ordered our
drinks, and sat down at table. I sat down 80 degrees or so from her seat
and moved the chairs closer progressively through the sitting. I think most
of the strength of the meeting came from asking her the right questions,
about her passions, what she looks forward to the end of the day, and what
she finds most fulfilling about her passions. In this case it was writing.
I've found lately that trance words are usually a bit more simplistic for
younger women (she's 19, I'm 21). The words are like "fun" and "great"
instead of "expand" and "dreamy." We're in a vampire films class together
at college, so I started talking to her about the romantic emotional
connections some vampires have with their victims, particularly in Dracula
starring Frank Langella in 1979. I asked her if she has ever felt a
connection to someone despite some inhibition she didn't want to cross. She
said not really. I then asked her what it would be like if she had, and she
said "Oh, it would be great." I should have anchored it, but I didn't think
of it. I asked her then about what things were going on in her life, and
she said nothing too interesting. I then asked a question I think works
really well: "If your life was a movie, what would it be rated?" and she
said PG 13. I then said, "No X? How far away do you think you are from an X
rating?" and she said "Well, I need someone to make it an X movie first..."
and I smiled and said "Well, who knows? Maybe someone will jump into your
life and make it an X rated movie." and pointed to myself. We just laughed,
and smiled into each others eyes for a while. I found maintaining the eye
contact throughout the silences is very powerful.
We started talking more about sexual relationships, and the feeling of
wanting someone, and did the color demo, telling her the feeling had a
color, putting the shape of the color in my hand, and then moving it back
and forth, showing control of it. She laughed during it and thought it was
fun. Throughout the conversation, I was touching her arm, and leg, and
sometimes would leave my hand on her arm for an extended amount of time,
and she didn't mind. That was a green light.
At some point, I didn't want to stale it out anymore, so I asked if she had
had her handwriting analyzed. She said a long time ago. I said it was time
to do it again, and she said ok. I said I had the grapho deck back at my
place. We left pretty soon, and I took her into my room. I knew things were
looking good because it was MY room and SHE's the one who closed the door.
We went upstairs to my loft and I started analyzing her handwriting.
Everything was dead on. She was blunt, sarcastic, emotionally withdrawn,
and somewhat violent. She agreed with all and said that when she was in
high school, she used to play floor hockey and hit people with the stick
and pretend it was an accident. Red flag anybody?
Anyway, she seemed really sweet despite all this, and I used what Ross
taught me. I said "on a scale of 1 to 10, how tense to you feel right now?"
and she said "4" I said "I bet your tension is right.... here." and pointed
to her neck. She said "Always." I said "turn around." and I started
massaging her neck, back and shoulders, she started closing her eyes, and I
was smelling her all over. I started putting my face near hers, and we
started kissing.
She then said "I'm enjoying this immensely, but this is my first time doing
this." and she said all she wanted to do was make out. I agreed, but we
ended up completely naked and doing everything but sex. It's good to nod at
a girl's initial boundaries and objections and just keep going through. I
want to make a point that when we went up to my loft, she was sitting
farther away from me than necessary and having her legs in the way of me
kinoing her much, but telling her to turn around for the massage solved all
An interesting thing was that I asked her what her reaction to the color
demo was and she said "I was thinking 'This guy is trying a lot harder than
he has to'." I asked if it was just silly to her, and she that no, it was
fun, but I probably would have gotten her anyway. She could be right, but
it apparently didn't hurt. I think what worked the best was my new
attitudes and beliefs I've had since the seminar. I can function a lot more
on auto pilot now without having to bring out any real scripted techniques
most of the time.


Maximillian Hell:
> >I plan to switch to #closes, Svengali closes, and try more ZNS/ONS work.

Maximillian Hell:  If Svengali was busy he would say: "I have a meeting to
go to, but let's meet at that cafe over there at X hours." Sort of like a
delayed instant date. ZNS is an ASF term that I've assumed means you don't
stay the night, but I could be wrong.
> Well, I have a problem sarging anything but the best - a little unique
it seems to the other guys...

Maximillian Hell:  Who has the time for anything else? Right now I am
focusing on not letting environmental cockblocks get in my way. In other
words, not waiting for an opening, but rather making one happen.
Particularly when the target and I are both rushing headlong in opposite
directions, which is so common in big bustling cities.


>>Ginko: Problems include how to convert all of the above into serious
physical action at a party.
>Ross: The real problem is, how do you know you weren't just temporary
entertainment, stimulation and distraction without any REAL intent on her
part to act further on it?

Ginko: I’m curious, how does anyone know for sure that they're not
entertainment, stimulation or distraction during a sarge? How many times
have I read or heard about guys who've taken a girl on a wonderful mental
journey without any physical reciprocation whatsoever? I can tell you one
thing for sure, she had a blast and so did I. This was FUN, and that's what
it's about right? How to move the situation along even further physically
in that environment was the focus of my original question. The challenge
for me now is bridging the gap between the prim and proper company employee
and the natural and free woman I saw at the party. These are behavioral
extremes. The question I'm asking is how do I talk to the 'gatekeeper'
(Miss Prim and Proper) to communicate to the woman I saw at the party? This
is where the verbal element comes into play, this is where I need some help.
>Ross: Ah, well if you knew how to use your language to get her to
fantasize about what she'd experienced and to build up in her mind a desire
to ACT on it, you wouldn't have to ask all these questions about what,
right now, is merely an EPISODE.

Ginko: True. But for a recovering AFC it was a hell of an episode.
>> Ginko: Things I learned were, language smanguage. For this situation
getting in touch with your inner animal was the ticket.
>Ross: Oh yeah? Well, Mr. "Inner Animal" without language....where are you
NOW, smart guy? Has it occurred to you that you could have used BOTH...the
"inner animal" to get her excited and then your language to BIND that
excitement through time and challenge her to rise for MORE?

Ginko: It's occurring after the fact, isn't it. This "episode" was a LOT of
fun in and of itself, I'm not focusing in on what it was not. However, the
problem that I'm recognizing now is that I lack the verbal ability to
continue this 'sarge' on in a completely different context. My original
point, and discovery was that... "for this situation" the physical angle
got this person VERY excited, instantaneously. But, back to your point.
Yes, I wish I had languaging skills. The concept of binding excitement
through time and challenging her to rise for more? I’d like to ask if you
could provide an example of what this might sound like?
> Ross: you've bought into the militant stupidity that says that language
is "unmanly" or "un-alpha".

Ginko: LOL… I haven't bought into anything, Ross. What I experienced was
how powerful being physical in this particular context was. As mentioned
before, I'm without verbal skills, I would genuinely like to experience the
power of that element of the game.
If I had YOUR verbal skills I'd not be writing in to the list asking
>>Cliff's Comment: You're my new hero. I am sure you'll be so busy with
women lusting after you
soon that I'll never hear from you again...
>Ross: Hero? Hardly. He's half-way there. Don't idolize this guy.

Ginko: He doesn't. I speak with Clifford fairly regularly and he knows I'm
struggling out the AFC
hole, he was just rooting for me I'll guess.
>Gregory Rasputin (Commenting on Ginko): In either situation the girl is a
whore. And the best way to deal with a whore is to be her pimp. So don't
ever ask her anything, you know everything EVERYTHING, and that's how she
should feel.

Ginko: The girl is a WHORE!? Why, because she cut loose at a PARTY in front
of her player boyfriend? No. She loved the excitement and attention I
brought to her AND she probably had it somewhere in her mind that 'if
boyfriend can flirt, so can I'. So what? Dude, she's hardly a whore.


aa aa:
I have been studying SS and the archives on this list for the past 6 months
and I now feel I would like to make my contribution. First of all some
background info. Essentially, I am, by far, no PUA, but simply a reforming
AFC (I accept it and I admit it, but I am certainly making my change).
Before I contribute some thoughts I would like to state how SS and this
list has been invaluable to my progress. It has been eye-opening to realize
that the key is to approach, "talk to everyone, everywhere." It has been
comforting to know that even people like Mystery must always "fight the
fear", that it's a numbers game and you need to knock on every door. It was
reassuring to know that even the best PUA cannot get every woman he talks
to because there will always be people who are open to conversation and
those who will not (and I need not take it personally when they are too
wrapped up into themselves to not talk, that's their problem not mine). I
understand now that I will have my good days and my bad days. I am feeling
more relaxed and confident now than ever before. I have learned to trust my
instincts now because I always fucked up whenever I tried to recite
word-for-word the SS I found on this site, I felt unnatural and I had to
let my own style and personality show through. This makes me more genuine
to the woman I approach. I can trust my instincts because I know I have
absorbed all the right concepts of SS (attitude, confidence, "alpha-male"
status, cocky and humor, "I am the prize, not them"). Of course, a few
great lines here and there are always helpful, but essentially a sense of
my own personality must show through in order to say the things I want to
say with conviction and depth. RJ and many others have been great in
contributing several keys lines which I keep in my tool-box (i.e., "I
realize that most people are a little bit afraid to meet somebody new, and
that it takes a little bit of courage to allow yourself to open up, but I
know I'm always a little bit flattered when someone goes out of her way to
get to know me"). Mark B. has been influential in being direct and simple.
Much like Mark's last post, I have also found that when I put the pressure
off on getting a close, I am more relaxed and more prone to simply enjoying
a good conversation (which eventually leads to a much easier close). I want
to get to know her as much as she wants to get to know me. If things goes
well, getting the close is easy; if not, then it's on to the next one.

Now on to some field-experiences. First, the power of eye-contact. I do not
underestimate the power of eye-contact anymore. I often try to make direct
and intense eye-contact everywhere I go now -- walking down the street, on
my train-commute to work, in stores. Though I get the varied responses from
looking away to a look of confusion, I was also pleasantly surprised to
find that some women would actually look back with slight smiles and
intrigue. It only affirms the fact that some women enjoy the attention,
they want to be flirted with and they want to feel attractive and desired.
Mark B. once suggested a site with insightful reading
( Some key points I got out of this is that men often
do not realize the sexual power that we have over women. We seem to
perceive that women have all the sexual power, but when we realize that
women desire men just as much as we desire them, we can take back that
sexual power. We have the power to choose who we want to talk to, and we
are the ones who take the lead (this point was quite empowering to my

Second, I have noticed that when I dress well, I am more confident and I
receive more attention. When I am not dressed well, I am less confident and
I receive less looks as I walk down the street. A simple point, but if it
helps me feel more confident and self-assured during my approach, I will
not ignore it. (For me, dressing well is slacks and tucked-in dress-shirt,
and not dressed well is jeans and sweater.)

Now, I have been having good results with saying "You're kind of cute"
either as an opener or as an SOI within the first few minutes. I say it in
a casual way like it's no big deal for me and it's no big deal for her so
I'm downplaying my attraction for her but also making an SOI to pique her
interest. This came about when I could not deliver the "absolutely
stunning" approach. I was often frozen into inaction because I felt this
approach needs to be delivered with deliberateness and "alpha-male"
confidence which I could not muster up quickly enough. "You're kind of
cute" is delivered more casually and does not lay it all on the line as
with "absolutely stunning." I can continue to demonstrate my confidence
through the ensuing conversation. Still, I can see how powerful and
effective the "absolutely stunning" approach can be under certain
circumstances and when said with great precision. For me, under most
circumstances during my daily activities, I am approaching casually and
simply to strike up a conversation and the "absolutely stunning" is too
all-or-nothing and it gives too much power to them before I am ready.

Actually, as I'm writing this I'm having a sudden realization. I can now
envision myself saying the "absolutely stunning" approach, but with that
relaxed confidence that has worked for me so far. If I don't make it out to
be that life-and-death approach, if I deliver it with a light-hearted smile
so that it's obvious that I'm not making a big deal about it and she
shouldn't either, I can see myself delivering it in much the same way as I
would casually say "You're kind of cute" (field-test needed).

I have several real-life approaches (good and bad) which I would like to
detail for everyone's analysis, but I have already written so much and I
will detail them next time.

One last note, I recommend seeing the upcoming movie "Roger Dodger" about a
PUA who takes his inexperienced nephew to show him the ropes. It's gotten
great reviews by the critics and its been in several Independent-movie film
festivals. The trailer itself has some great material:


Just wanted to point out that before Sysonpyh  and Zan there was this
article (pasted below) in a previous newsletter entitled "He slightly
invaded their personal space" by Alexg. These three seem to support the
method of good body language», prolonged eye contact, cockiness (not
necessarily funniness, in Alexg's friend's case), teasing and the use of
Cialdini's principles especially social proof.  Just thought I'd point that
out. My MO seems to be drifting toward that kind of approach. I wonder what
you have to say about that?

(Repost from Alexg):
I wanted to write to you about this guy I was friends with for 6 months or
so... I met this guy at the gym when I was a trainer there. When I first
met himit was a bit weird... He stood pretty close to me. I thought he was
gay or something. Turns out he wasn't.... I think he just had a fucked up
understanding of personal space. He stood close to everybody while talking
to them... not super close but just closer than everybody else you would
usually talk to. He didn't talk that much either but he kept on looking in
your eyes when you talked, even a few moments after you were finished,
which sort of kept you talking. I thought that he was stupid or something
as he took a while to understand what I was saying :-) He wasn't though.
His mother was an alcoholic and his father passed away when he was 5 or so.
I soon found out this guy attracted women like crazy. He was the friend I
have had who was the best at attracting women. He was 17, 5"10, skinny and
slightly better than average looking. He wasn't doing it on his looks,
though. He wasn't one of those typical football jocks or other aggressive
types that usually attract women at that age either. He wasn't
especially funny or intelligent or very-well dressed or anything. One day,
I was talking to a friend of his as he was talking to a girl and his friend
said something along the lines of: "oh boy, there he goes again. This guy
talks to a girl for 2 minutes and she falls in love with him."
It was true too... I saw it happen many times. Even my girlfriend at the
time (who was 36 and I was 19) spoke to him for 1 minute max and afterwards
she said "That guy seems pretty cool" and I sensed some attraction she had
for him. Even my mother once said he seemed pretty manly!!!! That was
fucked up!!! He told me of one girl in high school that was so crazy about
him she carved his name in her arm with a knife. From seeing how women
responded to this guy, I had little doubt it was true. He was always going
from gf to gf. I saw his gf and an ex and a pic of his former gf and these
girls were pretty damn hot. I saw other girls interact with him and they
seemed to like him. I don't think this guy knew what he was doing at all. I
think I know pretty much what he did now, which I didn't realize before.
For one thing he was very confident... He talked to women often. He had a
very confident walk... pushing his chest out and walked like if he was
walking to a rhythm. And held is head up high. He was a pretty cocky.  He
used to create competition in the eyes of his girlfriends and tell them
stories and shit to make them jealous (e.g.: he used to tell his GF's:"I
think your friend has a crush on me","Your friend made a move on me"(which
was probably true), etc.). He did not put women on a pedestal at all.  He
used to get pissed at them and show his anger, but not go crazy, though. He
called women on their bullshit all the time. He definitely had social
proof going because of all the girls he hung out with. He also poured some
kino on them. He did something else, too, that I find is not mentioned
often in»... He TEASED them... all of them, from
Ug's to the HB's. The way I see it, it's sort of like a neg. Except you are
jokingly reducing the girls self-esteem, or at least you are showing her
she doesn't intimidate you at all. It makes me think of something that I
believe Toecutter said about statements of power a while back on your
list... I think, though, that the major reason why he attracted women was
because of how he used to look at them and also how he slightly invaded
their personal space. I think his pupils dilated but I am not too sure. He
looked at everybody like if he was entranced by them. He kept eye contact
for a long time.


Mark B.:
One of my former girlfriends called me the other day and asked to see me. I
agreed and met each other in a coffee shop. At the coffee shop she said she
has been having a hard time living her life since we split about 8 months
ago. She said she missed me and felt guilty about some of the things she
had done in the relationship. She said she has been having a hard time
living her life without me and cannot achieve any success anywhere since
our breakup. She wrote out a letter citing all the things that she was
sorry for and wanted my forgiveness. Then she said she wanted to meet me on
Oct. 31 Halloween which would have marked our 4 year anniversary since we
started dating. She said she wanted to meet me on this date in order to
complete the cycle so that she could finally let go of our relationship and
move on and that is why she wanted to see me. She admitted that she was
indeed the one that has been calling me from a blocked number and hanging
up on me for the past 4 months. I am baffled by this as if she really
wanted to let go she would not have needed to call me and see me to move on
with her life. Perhaps she is trying to do what her heart is not allowing her.

I am not sure what to make of all this with her? I wonder that is really
going on in her head.

Any thoughts on this I would greatly appreciate.

The second input I would like is from anyone who has had any success in
dealing with young flaky chicks. We all know the type, the ones still under
25, live at home, have no real responsibility, have a former boyfriend who
is still their best friend who wants her back but she is not sure what to
do and teeters back and forth between wanting to be with him and not
wanting to be with him. Have a vast network of female friends that
influence their every decision including that guy she sees and make it seem
like that all share one common set of brain cells. Change their mind on a
whim and cannot make a decision or if they do they are unable to stick to it.

I have ran into a few lately that fit this profile to a tee and have been
having a rather difficult time getting any sort of consistent behaviour
from these flakes. Some of them are fairly attractive and it would be a
shame to pass them up. I realize one cannot seriously consider anything
serious with these women as they could drive you insane but somewhere in
there they may be worth while.  If any one has any thoughts on these matter
I would greatly appreciate them.


I am now sharing with you the results of my experiment on Halloween night,
I'll give you a little bit of outline on how & why it was planned as such.
Also there were some set backs on my part which I will explain & in doing
so I feel I have learned something from all of this. Ok I know I've said it
before that I am a practitioner of Occult Magic & this gal is someone that
I met due to my practice & have used some basic pattern language with her &
have been involved with for some time now sexually & romantically. One of
her greatest highs in life was to find a genuine & honest practitioner of
occult forms of magic like myself that could open the doors of magic into
her life & in fact from what she tells me she spent five years trying to
contact me because she had heard of me from mutual acquaintances.
In the time I have known her I have used themes & pieces of patterned
language that would allow her to feel that deep connection with me, themes
of destiny & how I used a meditation to find her through space & time. How
I knew when I met her that there was an instantaneous connection "as if our
souls touched each other when we first looked eye to eye" that we were
meant to meet, to which she said yes I feel that way about you. And even
when her ex-Borefriend has argued with her about me & how she should thank
him for meeting me she'd tell him "Nick & I were meant to meet each other
it was destiny, you don't know the bond we have" Think she feels connected
to me? So with that said in mind I want to get my experiment & its purpose
which was meant to pleasure her & give her a deep satisfaction.
The night was planned in a motel so that I would have no interruptions &
the setting was that I was doing an "initiatory ritual to open her up to
the energies of the spirits & magic."  The usual primitive ritual
paraphernalia was set up with candles & other items to set the atmosphere &
she was led to do a devotional dedication which ended with an embedded
command that she "become one with these energies" a ritual beverage was
provided but was ONLY to be consumed AFTER the WORK at hand. So after the
dedication I led her through a guided visualization which I will share
here, & it included her personal trance words.  I also used the abduction
method taught by Ross. I will give the induction I scripted for this
occasion then I will give the results & certain set backs & why they
occurred.  Here's the induction..
Close your eyes & relax...take a deep breath: As you allow the sound of my
voice to guide you through this experience, notice what it's like as you
find yourself becoming more relaxed, to the point where your mind & soul
are so in touch with the mystery & the wonder & the beauty & the devotion
of this special moment, as you find that you can just slow time down & the
whole world stops as you become totally absorbed with this connection
taking place…. now. With me, I invite you to notice how you can just start
to feel the energies of this work, as you become aware of the rhythm of
your breathing & the beating of your heart, so that you become totally
absorbed with this connection, to the point where the warmth of these
energies, the deep rich warmth of these arousing energies can just start to
penetrate your consciousness, like a diamond bullet shot right into your
soul that just spreads out through your whole soul & re-alivens & AWAKENS
you to pleasures & feelings you haven’t dared dream about & as your heart
beats faster & your breathing increases, the warmth of these arousing
energies can just heat up into a fire, spreading all through your chest &
down through your belly...a fire pounding & pulsating all through you, to
those places deep inside you where you really long to have it go, as you
feel that total perfection & deep devotion that makes you feel complete
now. Can you feel that "touch anchor" is something wonderful to experience..
I want you to keep your eyes still closed...take a deep breath, as I invite
you to notice how all the imagery & all the feelings of this magical
experience can come flooding through you, So that with each and every beat
of your heart…each and every breath you take…each and every passing
moment...the pleasure and the enjoyment of being in this special place…with
this special voice… just gets better and better.
The problem I encountered here was that as I was doing the induction state
I became excited to where my voice was not always matching my words as I
described it & I took a deep breath & focused on leading her through
experience, half way through the pattern I started to calm down & was able
to continue. She did go into trance & was experiencing pleasurable feelings
in her body because when the induction ended she stayed in that state for a
few minutes & I said to her to just let those wonderful feelings flow
through you & only open your eyes as soon as you find yourself wanting to
come into normal consciousness.
When she opened her eyes she had this look & was glowing & said to me "You
just don't know how I was was so good, words can't described
it". Then we both had a drink & as she relaxed she told me of how she was
feeling in the experience & then said "you sounded like nervous at first
when you were talking to me or like excited, it confused me but then I
started feeling so good inside."
Then we had a few more drinks & she said, "so now what do I do?"  I said
whatever makes you feel "wonderful" in an erotic tone of voice & then
kissed her & we started to make out I put my hands down her panties.  She
was dripping wet & she said you got me so hot with the things were saying &
commenced to attack me in nasty ways.. Let's just say it was quite an
orgasmic love making fest which for her was very multi orgasmic more so
than other times we've made love.
I feel however that I could have flowed better with the patterned induction
if I would have A. Focused on getting her in state & not get so excited
with the outcome: And B. I had the wrong mentality going into it, I slipped
into the "I have to do this right mindset" which I feel gave less impact to
my work which was meant to be experimental. So now I need to work again on
my mindset for future experiments to come, still I got some good results
despite the set backs in my tone & tempo.
So I will go back to the drawing board & do some more work on myself &
experiment some more with other patterns & hopefully soon enough I will
order Major Marks Build a Better Girlfriend Video series to enhance my
education. If I find that this girl is worth keeping I think I will use
Ross's Elicitation of highest values in a relationship pattern - only time
will tell.
I do need to work on my own state of mind as well because sometimes I go
into Jerk Mode & I think it is f%cking up my success with my SS studies
because I make them feel good & then I slip into jerk mode being too
demanding as opposed to giving them opportunities to have wonderful
experiences. This will change because I am aware of what I am doing & that
is the first step towards improvement. I hope this information was
worthwhile & maybe gives some feedback to any SS students still in the
learning curb process.


Found out something interesting about the woman who inspired my e-mail of
last week (about approaching women while on the job).
She's got a girlfriend.
Maybe it's just a phase.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

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