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Why didn’t you just tell me that you’re going to the bathroom to get rid of me?
12/27/02 1:43:41 PM Eastern Standard Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list
is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also,
as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.


I am now using a more sophisticated mailing list software program which makes my
life a lot easier.  I have, however, purged the list of a lot of email addresses
that were coming back with error messages.  I know from experience that some of
these addresses are still good, but they have been repeatedly coming back to me
and I decided to delete them.  I left any addresses on that came back where the
error message indicated that they were just over quota - which meant that the
address was still good but that someone wasn't cleaning up their old emails.  If
anyone that you know is not receiving these emails even though they had
subscribed, it could be that they were deleted now because what I was sending
has been bouncing back.  If you know anyone who isn't getting the emails, please
either contact me or have them contact me.


Cliff's Comment:  The following is an inspirational post from Capt_BL who has
been up in Montreal a couple of times this last year.  Capt_BL is hearing
impaired and his speech can be difficult to understand (I have a hard time
understanding it, at least).  However, he has developed a good game when out in
the clubs and usually has to write down what he wants to say on a note pad that
he carries with him.  This post originally appeared on Mystery's Lounge and is
reproduced here with permission of the author.

Several of you have asked me to post the conversation that was written down on
the notepad while sarging.  At first I am not sure how to post it because
sometimes when I write things on the notepad, it can be just one word and I
gesture or talk out loud the idea I am getting across.  Or it can be a whole
sentence.  It can be hard to remember every detail of what I did, but I'll try
my best.  I'll talk about the sarge where I got a # on Friday night, and that 3
set I did on Saturday night.
Friday sarge, #close:
Actually, I lost the first page of this one.  But I do remember opening with the
dental floss opener.  It was a 3 set, and me and Christophe (btw, this dude is
fucking amazing, and makes a GREAT wing) went in.  Christophe disarmed the CBs
while I talked to the target.
Her:  "What's your name?"
Me:  "Capt_BL, yours?"
Her:  "Liz."
Me:  "That's a simple and common name... I like my name, it's UNIQUE"
Her:  "Where are you from?"
Me:  "I'm visiting Toronto and here (Montreal) for the weekend, I'm from NY.
And you are from?"
Her:  "I'm from Calgary, I study here."
Me:  "Ooo good skiing there.  Anyway my cousin goes to McGill here."
Her:  "I go to Concordia."
Me:  "Damn it's cold. Next time I'll go to someplace WARM, like Florida."
Her:  "It's a long drive."
Me:  "No, I won't drive there.  I will fly."
Me:  "Hey, if you had to go on vacation right now where would you go?"
Her:  "To visit my family... or Mexico City."
Me:  "I climbed mountains near Mexico City, it was cool.  But you should go to
Her:  "I have a friend from there, so I would visit him then go to the beach"
Me:  "Now you're talking!  Go there for spring break.  I went and it was
Her:  "I'll go there after graduation."
Me:  "You seem to be a little too conservative for me."
Her:  "Why?"
Me:  (I didn't write this down) "You need to be more adventurous and open.  I
can teach you how.  Now, Liz, don't slouch like this.  Sit up straighter.    Now
shoulders back, thrust your chest out.    Now, that's good.  Smile more.    Now
take a deep relaxing breath and be OPEN.  .
Her:  "I don't usually go to these fancy places... I like jeans and t-shirts."
Me:  "Hey, let's play a game..."
Her:  "HA I got you!"
Me:  "Ok, ok you got me.  But I am the master of slaps."
Her:  "Slaps?"
Me:  "Lemme show you"
Me:  "Now, the loser has to kiss the winner on the cheek."
Her:  "No, loser buys winner another fancy drink."
Me:  "Ummm.  No.  But you might get lucky tonight if you buy me a drink"
Her:  "OOH LA LA"
Me:  "Boy, you really want it, but we shouldn't rush into anything now."
Her:  "Ok FINE.  Be conservative."
Me:  "Aha.  I need to get to know you better.  So tell me about yourself."
Her:  "Hmm.. where to start."
Me:  "Oh, do you like bears?"
Her:  "They're ok, I want a dog though."
Me:   "hey listen, I saw this cool movie about dogs.. on IMAX theatre."

Then when the HB was writing something, Christophe tells me that we have to
leave so I tell her to give me her # and she does.  It was very late, and if I
had more time, I would have *closed her, maybe even f-closed her that same
night.  But I never got around to following up on that #, too bad though... ahh
no biggie anyway.

Saturday 3-set, near *close but no *close:
Me to HBMiddle:  "Do you like traveling?"
HBMiddle:  "I do but I don't travel much. I don't have much money."
Me:  "Aww, I'm looking for a girl who is rich.  You're not rich?  Who is the
richest girl in this group?"
HBLeft:  "None of us are rich."
Me:  "Ah, that's too bad.  But that's OK, maybe we can still be friends.  So,
can we be friends?"
3-set:  "Ok, sure, why not!"
Me:  "Remember when we were little, we would go up to each other and say 'can we
be friends' and it was normal?  We'd say 'sure! you're it!'    well you know
what...   you're IT!"
HBLeft:  "What's your name?"
Me:  "I'm Capt_BL, what's yours?"
HBLeft:  "Toni"
Me:  "Cool, how do you know each other?"
3-set:  "blah blah"
HBMiddle:  "I'm Roula"
Me:  "Nice name what is your nationality?"
HBMiddle:  "Greek."
Me:  "OH I went to Greece a few years ago and partied there with my friends.  My
cousin was videotaping the whole thing, but we refused to show the movie to our
parents.  Too wild.    We literally captured LIFE."
Me:  "Hey Roula, tell me about yourself.  If you had to go on vacation where
would you go?"
HBMiddle:  "blah blah, and you?"
Me:  "Cancun. Definitely Cancun.  I was there for spring break.  We played this
game called the telephone.  You know telephone?"
HBMiddle:  "I have a boyfriend."
Me:  "Huh?  Nooooo I am not asking you for your phone #, I'm talking about the
game telephone.
Me:  "So you say you have a boyfriend?
HBMiddle: yes
Me:  Good! It will give you something to do when I'm not around."
Me:  "Well if you have boyfriends, why didn't you just tell me that you're going
to the bathroom to get rid of me?  I do that all the time, if I don't like the
girl I'm talking to, I tell her that I'm going to the bathroom LOL"
Me:  "Gee, is it me, or do girls keep stealing my lines?"
HBMiddle:  "No, we came up with them first.  We were first!"
Me:  "Um.  Ok.  If you say so."
HBLeft was giving me more IOIs than HBMiddle, so I switched targets and decided
to go for her instead.
Me to HBLeft:  "You better run away from me.  If you get with me, I can only
promise to give you hours and hours of pleasure.    You need more than that.
Yes, you need a nice guy who will give you flowers, dinners, gifts.  Me, I will
just corrupt you."
HBLeft:  "Haha, no man can do that.  I'm engaged."
Me:  "You don't know who you are talking to!  Even if you have 10 boyfriends, I
can still corrupt you!"
At this point, I SHOULD have kissed her right there.  But I didn't.  I didn't
think the logistics were just right.  Rather I should have isolated her from her
friends.  If I had done that, that would have been a SURE *close.  But I
freaking forgot to isolate!

Guys I hope this helps.  One problem I have with the notepad is that writing it
down and doing KINO on her can be tricky.  I have only two hands after all.  If
I had four hands, I'd use two hands to write things down and the other two
KINOing her body.  Any suggestions??  Comments appreciated.


" How to get your girl to shave when she really doesn't want too" : )
Well, you know Nancy is a church girl right? She's a little freak but still I've
got all THAT to deal with. Anyway, been trying to get her to "trim up" a bit for
the last several months but she claims it's not natural and I hadn't been able
to make any progress.
Until last weekend.
So, I hadn't seen her in 3 months. When we got back to her house it was pretty
intense. Anyway, my story is that I didn't remember I had a mouth full of
Dentyne Ice when I went down on her...about 70% of which was still sort of
....there. You know? I scrambled out of the room to get her some water as usual
and while standing at the fridge I hear..."what the fuck is this?" I was afraid
to go back into the bedroom but Nancy began laughing hysterically so I figured
it was safe. To make a long story short, a Mach 3 works great on anybody's muff.
And she was pretty turned on by the whole thing, as you can imagine.


Eric H.:
> 2) only $12.95. Ok, someone want to bite and
let us know if it works?
Eric H.:  I've had it a week and gotten some response from it. The thing is,
every guy has probably already touched this spot and gotten a response but it's
not really ONE "touch" so that is why you haven't recognized it. Chances are
there were other factors involved when you did touch it and got a response so
you credited it to something entirely different. The guy does give a way to use
it for kino'ing a chyck so don't think you gotta have her clothes off to use
this, AND it's a fairly easy/acceptable place to touch on most any chyck.


Cliff's Comment:  The following are a combination of thoughts from Rio, both
reposted with permission from Mystery's Lounge and made in private email to me.
I'd love to think that women will treat you well if you treat them well. This is
not the case. Women go out into the world, subconsciously to meet an alpha-male
who will be critical of them and their appearance/style/attitude/sexual ability,
and so they WILL try for this imagined man in their head. They expect this man
to be critical of all of these things. So you must be that man and size her
up.... and this is how you do it, by telling her honestly and straight up...
that you were looking for a passionate woman to be in your life, but she doesn't
cut it, and so the date ends here... and you will never see her again. If you
are looking for the missing skill that turns cold women red hot again, I am
telling you what it is.
I'm not brilliant in clubs because I do not like the atmosphere. I have been
offered some easy pussy in clubs before... and that's what I don't really like
about the place. It can be too easy to be fun. You still have to screen women
there. Copping a feel from a chick on the floor is not likely to get you
anywhere much unless she is just incredibly horny.

All the chicks you are meeting actually don't have issues, and if they did and
they wanted you badly anyway, they wouldn't talk about them or let them get in
the way of boinking you. I actually thought that most women had issues too until
I realized that I was falling into their shit-testing trap, and was not far off
being in friendship land.
See, if a woman was interested in you sexually, she wouldn't tell you any of her
fucked up bullshit life. She would spare you the pain. Plus, what kind of alpha-
male would be impressed by it? An alpha-male would simply screen her out for
being fucked up. Like, SHE KNOWS that telling a guy her problems and issues is
not going to score any points with him... definitely NOT on the LTR side of
things anyway!
Whenever a chick tells you her problems, she is really saying "Wow, he'll put up
with all my bullshit. He must be a desperate loser-man with no standards for
women he hangs out with, and since he has nothing better to do, I'll take
advantage of it and turn him into a friend!"

Every time a woman says "Why is it that all men want women for sex.... it is so
bad" or she says "I don't like sex" she is really saying.... "Wow, I can't
believe that you would even stay with me this long without even bothering to
check me out as relationship material or for my sexual ability. I'm starting to
wonder if I can get away doing this to attract other men in the future? Am I
really this hot? Let me push the envelope by saying "I don't like sex" or "I was
raped" or "I hate men" or "I've been fucked by 20 guys at once" to see if this
is too good to be true!"

And don't forget, women EXPECT to be screened by men! They want to see their
scorecard! My LTR got approached by a bunch of high-school guys who were still
learning the ropes the other day. They asked her what her name was, and then how
old she was, and then ran out of material and then left! What perked my ears up
is that my LTR said afterwards "They must have run away because I was too old
for them!". It was like she felt that she was screened out by them because of
her age, and she couldn't understand why that was!
In reality, those guys just didn't know what to say and how to act, got scared
and left!
The other quote which will help you when you are surrounded by other guys in
"Do not worry about your competition, because your competition does not worry
about you!"

One thing I find is that there are some guys who go out into the world and just
try the attitude out, and either don't know how to kick start the attitude, or
if they DO start it, they get too carried away with it and end up either
entertaining, or pissing the chick off, and just floating aimlessly in the
seduction.... which I have done before during experimenting - so I KNOW what
this is like.
Framing the interaction gives you some control over what you neg or bust-on...
thus making it more effective.
One little secret about guy-chick interaction that Svengali hinted at was that
women screen guys INSTANTLY upon meeting to see if he is fuck or friend
material. Also, they EXPECT to get screened by alpha-men for compatibility...
and they IMMEDIATELY assume that every question we ask them has something to do
with that. Now, can you see why "What do you do" is a bad opening line? (Answer:
Because it shouldn't matter what her job is, because it has relatively little to
do with your compatibility). They know why we approach them (at least they think
they do) so you'd better remove all doubt or they'll make a decision themselves.
Now, what I have found, is that if I start framing the conversation IMMEDIATELY
to me checking her out for relationship potential, and make it obvious, then the
Cocky & Funny frames kicks major ass. It is the best frame I know of. Usually it
becomes obvious through my line of questioning... (e.g. "Make sure you bring a
bikini to the beach, because I want to make sure it complements what I'm
wearing", "I really can't see us as a couple, because you're going to want to
tell me all your problems", "Would you say that you are a passionate kisser? You
know there's only one way to find out if you're lying or not, don't you?", "Meet
me here, because I'd like to get to know you a bit better to see if I'd like to
spend more time with you or not", "You're a bit short... but that's OK, I'll
overlook it for the bigger picture.", "You're not that friendly. You should be
more sociable if we're going to hang out.")
I can get away with asking her just about anything, because I am offering her
something she values (a relationship), and she is going to try for it by doing
what I ask, or by following my instructions on how to correct it. Of course, I
am reasonable... (!).... But you have to put a price on her interaction with
I think this is where teasing/flirting/negging, etc. comes into its own right.
Negging, for example, doesn't actually suggest WHAT the chick is not good enough
for... only that she is not good enough. This runs the risk of not conveying any
value I feel.
Framing the routine DOES give it some meaning though, so suddenly if she gets
negged THEN she has something to fix in order to stay in your good books for the
relationship she wants. This is even all the more important with women who are
not all that good-looking because with too many negs you are finished with them
(they will consider that they are unable to keep you, which is what they want,
and will just give up trying to impress you). You DO have to have an image in
your mind of the woman you really want as well... for something to compare to.
That will keep you focused on what you want her to do, rather than what she
actually IS doing and being at the moment. Also, keep in mind what you are going
to overlook and forgive about her... (and no-sex is unforgivable). Why be
friends with a chick with no sex, when you can be friends with a chick and get
Also, the confines of a frame (especially the one I am using) quickly allows me
to make appropriate comments and negs... WITHOUT pissing the chick off. It
sounds just like a normal conversation. I have nothing invested in the chick,
nor am I even trying much, and if she doesn't deliver, then she's not who I'm
looking for anyway! She's always the one that has to do her homework.... and
judging by the lengths women will take to dress well, put on makeup, nails, etc.
to win male friendship and attention... they expect the judging by alpha-males
to be HARSH COMPETITION. Subconsciously, they don't know why they try to
beautify themselves, but the reason is because that they are hoping to use it to
impress the alpha-male in their imagination. So the more they fuss over their
looks... the more they expect men to do the same.
She's the one who has to try, she's always the one.....
Some of the comments I make may sound arrogant. Some of the comments I make may
sound chauvinistic. Some of the comments may make me sound selfish and
demanding.... but if you accept only the best for your LTRs... funny how you
will often get women trying for it. Having standards is a must.
Plus this is all OK in the woman's mind. You are searching for a life-partner,
and you have EVERY RIGHT to be selective for your "soul-mate" that you will
spend a lot of time with and possibly your life... (that's what they think,
anyway...). Just look at "The Bachelor" on TV. That bachelor is fully pimping
the place out, and women think he's a decent guy! Nobody thinks he's a player
(except maybe that chick who accused him of kissing all the girls but was also
disappointed that she didn't get invited by him to the next stage of the
game)!... and yes, if you point out that you are looking for that one special
lady... women will not think that you are a player either.
Does it work all the time? No... some bitches will just screen you out for no
reason because that's the only man-trapping technique they have at their
disposal. Then, of course, you can screen them for that and ditch them
immediately... to save wasting time. More often than not though, you will get
women who want to play within the confines of the frame you created....... !
Let's play devil's advocate for a minute and suppose that you are fed up with a
particular chick because she is being cold, not acting interested, giving off
"don't touch me" vibes, and is generally being lazy and not trying to impress
you in the sexiness department. Hopefully by now, you would have pointed out
that friendly, sexy chicks are your type....
Since you have created the frame, you can get to play it out to the end...
"Well, it seems that you really aren't the sort of woman I'm looking for in a
relationship. Goodbye. I suppose I'll never see you again then".
What does this achieve? Well, firstly, if she's just going to be a lazy bee-
yatch... good riddance.... but also note that a woman (unless she is a player
herself) is not going to throw away a decent relationship when presented with a
FREEBIE right under her nose! The male equivalent of rejecting this would be
turning down an offer of sex from a sexy chick! She's not likely to be
comfortable with losing you permanently and flake on you unless she has other
better guys in the wings as back-up... and if that's the case... good riddance
You have to be able to expect that some women are mercenary, and that they are
going to try and get as many friendships as they possibly can without making the
effort or putting out. That is where the game for them lies, to see how many
guys they can get to like them, and see how much they can get from men, by
making little to no effort. (Not dissimilar to us guys seeing how many sexy
chicks we can fuck by making no effort!). Thing is, it's easier for them because
many AFC guys when meeting a chick, only screen a chick for friendship and use
NO frame for the interaction at all.
Question: What happens when you don't create the correct frame/first impression?
Answer: The chick makes it for you, and usually chooses the frame the suits her
at the time... usually just treats you as a friend, or someone to sponge off, or
a complete nobody with no value to be forgotten about, or if you are lucky
she'll be horny... but that's all just luck and puts the ball in her court.
In conclusion: SET THE FRAME for your interaction with her. It makes all those
other techniques we talk about all the more powerful, focused, and controlled.

Cliff's Comment:  I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on your
"development", in particular from where you were to where you are now (and where
you are going) and what you feel made the difference in helping you get there.

Rio:  Most of it is mind over matter I feel. Gut instinct. Stuff that you really
can't put into words...and even then it would fill a book.
I think back to a lot of my fuckups (A LOT of fuckups) & successes and try and
dissect them... and sometimes I see common threads. I've learned a shit-load
about women that I never would have if I didn't stop to look. Not all of that
has been rosy... but I didn't have to tolerate that either... and I think I did
to some extent (bad). Then there were times where I should have said something
about it and didn't.
I suppose the biggest part of development is trying to go from a guy who tries
everything to get laid, not even caring about who gets manipulated or screwed,
fucks up and yet has some successes... and then gets bored having to do things
that one way... to someone who realizes that doing it like that ends up
impacting you on other areas of your life which really require a bit more
attention... which were previously shut-out because you put blinkers on.
Svengali pointed that out in many of his posts, and I've come to see that for
myself. I ended up boinking a lot of women I didn't really like that much
(thinking you have to manipulate a chick into bed only gives you the feeling of
having a blow-up doll when you succeed)... and then they'd go and leave, and
that didn't satisfy me either... and then I'd have to go and do the seduction
all again, with mixed results, and when I wanted someone to be part of my
life... there was nobody (well, there was my constant LTR who has basically put
everything on the line to keep me in her life... and that made me reflect a
Coming to try and find a balance between the two evils has been my main focus.
That is, how can I PU chicks successfully and not be seen as a total dick by
other guys and the women I am with at some point later in time. I suppose I
would like to really enjoy the women I screw, and to have them stick around for
a change. (No, I'm not getting married anytime soon!)

Cliff's Comment: While you may feel you are regurgitating Svengali's ideas, my
experience is that almost everything that works has been put in our faces over
and over but there's a huge difference from reading something, agreeing with it,
even trying to use it, from when you truly grasp the concepts and make them a
natural part of you. Those profound insights are the things that are interesting
me lately.

Rio: It all sure has been put into our faces over and over again. The whole
seduction process is quite simple really, with the right attitude and mindset...
and that's usually the hardest thing to get.
From what I know, many different guys have different aims in all of this. For
Maniac, it's an experiment. For Mystery, it's a game. For MrSex4uNYC, it was
about boinking chicks at any cost... until I think he saw the light (which is
why he hasn't been posting anymore... I think).
For Svengali, it's about real life. I am getting to see Sven's point. That is,
while seduction seems to have rules... and seems to have different plays and
techniques... it's not actually a game, but real life...or a ritual if you like.
And most of the time, if you think like that, you end up playing that game with
yourself rather than understanding yourself and what you want LONG TERM, and
then going for it.
I learned in Karate that if you treat it as a game, enter a fight having
expectations, or lose your temper... then you will lose the fight. What you are
supposed to be doing is simply doing what you have to do, and if it's good
enough... then great. If not, then it's really not a loss at all. Either way is
not a success or a loss... just the way things are. That's just my 2c.
Still, I had to learn a lot and do all the wrong things to figure that out!
I don't actually use the relationship word. What I am amazed to find that is if
I even hint at screening her for a relationship, I find that the chick is
actually on the same train-of-thought anyway! I don't need to emphasize to her
what I am screening her for. It is THERE for her already. Along with this
discovery, and the comment my LTR made when guys approached her, was when I
noticed that women are waiting for guys to screen them, and the questions and
propositions we give to chicks are being viewed by her in this frame. If she
doesn't see this screening frame reflected by us (due to us asking stupid
questions like "What do you do?", or giving her routines that don't hint at
this), she gets confused and resets the frame to something we don't necessarily
want (like LJBF, etc.).
I suppose, if I hinted to a chick this frame and she did try and tell me her
problems, I would just tell her to shut up because I don't want to hear about
her ex-boyfriend. I am screening her for wanting to talk about ME and how good I
am, and none of her bullshit. I honestly don't care about her problems....
remember, I am screening HER for compatibility. I have the diamond she wants,
and she isn't going to impress me for the top job by whining. Now, you'd think
that this is rude to tell her to shut-it .... but when you have set the frame
for screening her for relationship material, it will make perfect sense to
you... and more importantly... it makes perfect sense to her to shut-up and MAKE
AN EFFORT! Remember, the game for women is to see how much they can suck from
guys and get away with it. This is just one such shit-test which (if you listen
to it) will open the door in her mind to heap more and worse shit onto you to
deal with, and take you for granted. Then when things go wrong with her
issues... YOU GET THE BLAME! I have had women do this to me on several
occasions, and there is no other explanation for it other than that. They
probably don't realize that they do it to us..... but they do.
About romance.... my slick factor increased when I viewed her as LTR material. I
read once from David Shade that women find it romantic when they have to try and
win a man's heart, and that is what they find romantic... when they finally win
the heart of a man who doesn't give a shit about them! This sounded good in
theory, but I had no way to make this theory work for me.
For that reason, you can't just offer a woman a relationship (what she wants)
and then press her for sex. That is not romantic... it's too easy for her to
win. On the other hand, you can't treat her like shit and demand sex... that's
impossible for her to win and enjoy (unless she is a 10 pressed for a challenge)
There had to be a balance.... and Elvis Presley found it. Elvis fans
(apparently) noted that what made Elvis so successful was that he was actually
viewed and acted in a way (in his movies) that he was actually looking for a
woman for the long-term... thing is, he often danced in a way that was obviously
and blatantly sexual. It was a combination of good-cop/bad-cop that sucked in
many a woman's imagination.
What you do have to do is lure a woman with all that is right and is "good"...
but make her work for it in ways which were "bad".
Communicating to a chick that you are viewing her as couple material
automatically sends her into romantic mode... making her work for it in weird
and wonderful ways just intensifies her romantic imagination - to dream about
"winning" you knowing that there is a chance, and there are things that she must
do. Suddenly she's hooked into playing with you.
If you slam the door in their face WITHOUT setting the frame... then sure...
she'll give up. There's no value in you then, and she'll assume that you are
worthless and other guys are better.
What I am doing is carefully complimenting things about chicks that I like. This
deserves a whole different thread in itself, but it is a skill that I have
noticed Svengali mention, and seen other guys succeed with, to force me to
develop the skill for myself... up to a point where it is now automatic in
conversations with women.
Worked really well yesterday. I complimented a chick on her jewelry and set the
frame for a brief second, and she was telling me that she liked me already.
I am not all negative to a chick. I screen her for all the good things, too.
Things I don't like, I mention, but I am polite about it because I am always
telling her how she can work on it to make it better, and to make me like her
more (which is what she wants, right?). This is where cocky & funny comes in...
and now I am rarely saying anything blatantly rude or insulting. If she takes it
the wrong way, then I have to reaffirm that she shouldn't take it personally
because she can change it. (Note: NEVER criticize a chick on something she can't
change when you screen her...) - and that if I didn't tell her at some point,
she'd just go through with everyone noticing and thinking bad things, and she'd
be none the wiser. Suddenly I become a trusted friend who has saved her a lot of
unnecessary pain! Ever heard a woman say "Do you think I look fat?" all the
time? Ever seen how a gay hairdresser for models corrects their hair/dress/diet
habits? I'm doing the same thing... and I'm using the frame of attracting a guy
and getting a relationship. Thing is, while she's learning what to do to make
herself more attractive... she's doing it all and linking it all to me (instead
of her copy of Cosmo!) and I'm reaping the benefits because I get to write her
scorecard... and she'd better perform (and you KNOW what I mean by that!)
To start giving you guys "Lines" and things to say would not actually help you
in screening a chick properly, because every chick is different and has
different attributes which you can pick up on yourself. Actually, finding out
what aspects of her personality are good for inspection is a skill in itself and
requires a whole new thread for discussion. What I have been doing recently is
what Svengali suggested, and is to find one thing about the chick that
interested me enough in the first place to want to get to know her (what she is
doing, what she is wearing, how she is acting, etc.). Mention that one thing to
her, and then make a conversation from that. Then what I would do is to set the
frame, and try to get her to see what I am seeing: namely a possible match if
she fits my bill. Then it becomes fun for her because I've gone and stuck an
image in her head about relationships and romance... then she is a whole lot
more pliable to what I have to say, and more open to playing the game out.
One of my recent pieces of work is when I felt like taking a chick to the beach,
but I was busy and assumed this wouldn't happen. So I went and said that she
should not wear jeans on a hot day, but rather she should dress like all the
other women in bikinis and what-not and head to the beach because it's much
better, because it would be more sexy I think and more attractive to guys...
like me, because I like sexy women, and it is my type. Then I am bombarded with
kino from her and more questions about girlfriends, offering me her email, etc.
It fully put her in the fun/horny frame of mind... so I push it some more and
tell her that it would be great to see her appear more sexy because she has a
lot of it that she should display... and I like to bring this out of women, etc.
I am not a master of screening at all. I lack the experience of repeatedly
setting this frame to claim to be a master of it. However, I am beginning to
notice just how important it is, and how some of my recent highly positive
responses have been working out.
Some of the things I began to notice was when I was talking to chicks who were
deliberately trying to be lazy in trying to attract me... and whenever I gave
them an attitude adjuster, it was funny... and then I figured that I should
really be taking it a bit further and pushing the envelope... to which I find it
to be working incredibly well, and how Svengali said it would work. That's when
it clicked with me.
The other thing with comparing a real-life chick to an imaginary image of your
perfect woman, is that you can also create an illusion of social proof....
despite the fact that you may be with nobody at all at the time. If you are
comparing her to an image, then she has to assume that you know a woman who is
better than her... et voila... social proof.
I don't use the R word either. Whenever I hint at relationship, I do not mention
"forever" and "monogamous" in the same sentence. Truth is, women don't want to
get married or bogged down either (The number one reason that women dodge
commitment is because.... they have enough money already!).
Of course you have to make her work for the relationship... (and here is the
kicker)... because when she works for a relationship, she thinks that she is
seducing YOU and not the other way around!
Setting the frame for the relationship.... well that is my job again... because
it's my relationship and not hers. She will eventually become responsible for
keeping it, by pleasing me, because I won't take responsibility if she doesn't.
She's not going to get it unless she says all the right answers to my questions.
Of course, one thing Svengali mentioned was that as a seductionist, you have to
realize that both men and women want the same thing. To me, that would read: A
passionate relationship which allows you to have a deeper insight into your
partner and experience intimate moments together of great pleasure.
So guys, you are effectively shooting yourself in the foot if you look at just
the body, and if you don't care for the woman beyond wanting to jump her body.
Portraying that image can severely lower your value in her eyes. Similarly, I
avoid trying to impress women (with routines, etc.). But, I will look after them
if they fit my bill, for sure, but I will not do anything to try and win their
attention, or slave to their demands.
All chicks are narcissists. Well, normal narcissism is OK, but I was reading a
book on Freud and abnormal narcissism. This deserves another thread really,
because it is interesting. This is what happens to chicks when the erotic
attachment does not become focused on men, but rather herself. That's when
chicks go into paranoia, hearing voices, and other forms of neurosis... and when
this happens, these women cannot be reached for therapy through sexual means.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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