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Then like pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey I? gonna walk towards the poll blindfolded
1/8/03 4:30:59 PM Eastern Standard Time


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26 (reposted from mASF with permission of the author.  Thanks to Style for
pointing this one out also):
I laid a girl again!
However, I didn’t fucking blow my load AGAIN…and we fucked 3 times.
Either condoms fucking suck…I have mental anxiety and need to calm down…or I’m
a homo, like Gunwitch said.
For those interested…I posted an mp3 of my phone call to this girl…you can hear
it (and read a bit of background info) at this URL:,24

Ok, I’ll start from the top.
I was to meet her for coffee at 7:30 PM (THURS).
I almost got there late, this is something I gotta work on – clock management.
I walk in and HBSmallFry is sitting there reading.
I see her from far and notice that I have to drop her status from a 6.5 to a 6.
I walk over and sit down.
26 – Did you recognize me?
HBSmallFry – Yes, of course…there’s barely anyone in here.
26 – Of course you noticed me, I’m the most handsome guy in here.
Then I sat down and busted her balls because she gave me crappy directions. It
was all good – she dug it.
So, we fluffed a bit and I went to buy a drink. She already had a coffee.
The only fluids I drink are water and plain soy milk.
So, I go to buy a water, but they don’t have any bottled water. The Starbucks
guy starts to get me tap water, but I didn’t want that because I’d look like a
lamo with HBSmallFry. So I make a crucial mistake and get some apple juice.
We’ll get to this.
I come back and we fluff a bit more…I’m throwing in a lot of cocky/funny, as
she is. She likes to tease A LOT, so I have to come back with stuff frequently
– good practice.
HBSmallFry – Is that apple juice?
26 – Yeah. Why? Are you against apples?
HBSmallFry – Oh my God, that’s like a little kid's drink (she’s 30 years old).
26 – (Thinking: Fuck, she’s right, this does look lame).
26 – No it isn’t, I like apple juice.
HBSmallFry – It’s just so strange lol.
26 – Yeah, real nice…goof on me for drinking apple juice.
I was dabbing prepared material in between our fluff…This is fucking wicked if
I get dead silence because I always have something bring the convo back…and
yes, I was ending convos and seeing if she would restart, which she would.
Here’s some of the prepared shit I used during our coffee meet:
- ESP Game
- The Cube
- Cold Palm Reading
She was in to all of it. Especially the Palm Reading. However, during the palm
reading she would kinda get goofy and giggly, paying less attention, so I
turned the palm reading from serious to comedy (thx TD or whoever posted this
26 – Hmm, I see a career in WAL-MART for you?
HBSmallFry – *Laughing* Really? A greeter?
26 – No…Store Manager!
HBSmallFry – lol!
26 – Manager of the Sports section of WAL-MART!
HBSmallFry – lol!
Did a few more goofs with the palm reading.
I’m thinking wow…this isn’t that funny…she must really like me!
Somehow we get in to a conversation about house work. She says that she hates
doing house work. She says her house isn’t the cleanest. Says she likes to eat
in bed and let crumbs fall everywhere.
I set up a picture in her head and goof on her living environment.
I tell her that she probably has giant dust bunnies the size of hay bushels in
her apartment.
That she has underwear hanging off the TV antenna.
That she had crumb piles the size of mountains on both sides of her bed.
I know this all isn’t funny, but she’s digging it.

It starts to snow like CRAZY outside.
The Starbucks guy comes over and tells us we have to leave because the store
is closed.
26 – Let’s go get a movie. (Thx TD)
HBSmallFry – Ok. We can do something.
26 – (Thinking: What? Fuck. I want to watch a movie at your house so I can try
to have sex with you).
We walk to my car. I hold her hand on the way.
I start driving.
She starts getting a bit freaky because there’s so much snow and the driving
conditions are horrible (which they are). So I start playfully pretending like
I’m gonna crash (ongoing theme). She’s getting more freaky, but she likes it.
(Dudes, if I never found this site I would NEVER be doing stuff like this.
Seriously. I would be lame and polite – Huge-time AFC. Thanks).
26 – Where are we going?
HBSmallFry – To the movies.
26 – (Thinking: Fuck. She thinks I want to go to the movies. How do I get out
of this? I don’t want to perform this HUGE AFC move).
HBSmallFry – It’s just around here.
26 – (Thinking: Get out of this 26).
26 – I meant, let’s rent a movie.
HBSmallFry – Oh. Sure, we can do that, but you have to hook up my VCR to my TV,
I don’t know how to do it.
26 – Sure. (I’m fucking horrible with basic electronic scenarios like this).
So we go and get a movie. We rent Insomnia.
HBSmallFry - Are you hungry? Because I don’t have anything to eat at my house.
26 – No. I’ll just eat from the giant piles of crumbs you have on your floors.
HBSmallFry - *Really Laughing* My house isn’t that messy!
We drive back to her place.
It ends up taking a LONG while finding a parking spot. In the middle of looking
she says she’s tired…I ignore this comment and keep good convo going…the word
‘tired’ is never brought up again.

I’m thinking this is gonna be good because we’ve been holding hands for the
last while. And she’s laughing at EVERYTHING I say.
I hook up her VCR to her TV and then I sit on the sofa. I got a pretty legit
boner going on now. You know that kind of rock-hardness where you got the
pre-cum dabbing your underoos!
She comes over and sits beside me. Then she says she wants the spot I’m in.
HBSmallFry – I like the end seat.
26 – I like that seat too (playfully).
We laugh about it and I move.
I figure it’s cool to move here. What am I gonna do? Tell her she can’t sit
where she wants?
She sits right right beside me and she brings her blanket on the sofa. She puts
it over herself and as she does this I put it over me too.
So, we’re pressed side-to-side to each other (with a blanket).
I’m thinking: This fucking rocks big time! I love this shit.
Her hand was exposed, so I put my hand on hers.
**I know some of you might be like…’Jesus, this is juvenile fagotry.’ Well, I
don’t care…this is a new cool world for me…so please fuck off**
So, what was I saying…yes…her hand was exposed and I put my hand on top of
NOTE: Early in our convo at the coffee shop she told me that she hates it when
she watches movies with people and they talk to her throughout it. I agreed
with her (even though this doesn’t bother me).
So, I thought, hmmm…should I talk with her during this movie?
I tested and did…she didn’t care…for the whole movie the KINO progressed higher
and higher.
She was rubbing my arms with her fingernails.
I was feeling her cold toes and goofing on her for having really cold toes, but
having really really warm legs…I said she wasn’t a normal human being…bullshit
I was also rubbing her arms! This is fun to do!
She then takes her legs out and stretches them out over me.
Her dress gets hiked up to her vagina area.
My hands are under the sheets so I start rubbing her legs…I progress higher up
and up the legs. I was very high!
And it was cool because one of her legs was pressed up against my juicy
rock-hard cock – she definitely felt the hardness.
She was also putting her hand up the arm part of my short sleeve shirt.
Basically, it was all systems go!
However, I didn’t kiss her throughout the whole movie.
Why? I guess I was chicken because of her comments from before…fuck, I know I
could have from what was going on…lesson learned.
On the other hand…this long lasting KINO (and cocky/funny talk) throughout the
movie turned her and me more and more on. I swear to God it was vital.
After the movie credits role up I put my hand on her chin and turn her face to
me and kiss her.
She’s TOTALLY in to it. Within 5 seconds she’s REALLY in to it. Like she’s
REALLY REALLY being aggressive with the kissing.
I’m thinking ‘This is soooo FUCKING cool!’ IT’S ON!
She starts lying down and I’m on top kissing her.
I start kissing her neck. She’s moaning and shit.
She gets up…
HBSmallFry – Is it ok for me to touch you now (see mp3 post).
26 – Yeah, now it’s ok.
Then I took off my shirt.
Then she started kissing and feeling my chest.
I take her shirt off. Now she’s just wearing a bra. And her dress is hiked up
really high.
I feel her boobies!
We kiss and feel some more.
HBSmallFry – Let’s go to my bed, it’s more comfortable to do this stuff there.
26 – (Thinking: I’m gonna fucking have sex tonight!)

All right…so we get to her bed…IT’S ON!
We continue to make-out all hardcore and shit. Oh yeah…it was fun…I am smiling
writing this.
Her dress is hiked up pretty high…I take off my belt.
I make out with her a little more.
I take off my pants…leaving my boxer brief undies on…mmmmmmm.
I pull her dress off.
We are there making out in our UNDIES! In our fucking UNDIES, can you believe
this, my mASF brothers!
So, I’m kissing her and feeling her boobies, ass and the whole shebang!
I was kissing her neck a lot and she was TOTALLY digging that.
Now, as you all know, I am just getting in to this whole sex thing. Even
kissing. She was biting my lips/tongue and shit…I was totally digging that. As
funny as all this may seem, I am learning SO MUCH.
So she’s feeling my rock hard shlonger through my undies…I’m doing some vahinia
rub downs too. It’s all good! We’re grinding and all that shit.
Now, she still has her bra on. I have NO CLUE how to take off bras. So, I just
didn’t bother to take it off. I just left it on and figured she’d eventually
take it off, which later she did.

I plan to learn to take off bras soon. What I’m gonna do it take one of my
mom’s bras and tie it around a poll or something, then like
pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey I’m gonna walk towards the poll blindfolded, reach
the bra and then try to undo it.
A lot of you are probably goofing on me for writing that or you may not be
taking me seriously, but I am dead serious. That is a legit way to learn…and
you know it’ll work too.

Where was I? Oh yeah, she takes off her bra. Then I take off my underwear. Then
I take off her underwear. Then we’re totally like making out and shit…then I
put on a condom.
Like the last time…I fucked and fucked and fucked beyond belief…probably around
25 to 30 minutes straight. I was very hard and luscious.
But like my first time…,24
…AGAIN…I can’t spunk a load. I couldn’t fucking do it.
I hate this shit – seriously. I really want to blow it during sex.
I never knew I’d adore the tight grip I use for masturbating. I have to
admit…masturbating is pretty cool because it’s tighter.
However, I think I’m not blowing my load for the following reasons:
01. Condoms give me NO sensation
02. I have these Sheik ‘Long Lasting’ condoms (something I obviously DON’T
03. I have mental problems (nervousness, anxiety)

So, she wants to stop because she’s getting sore…I’m cool with this because I’m
having trouble orgasming.
So, we just laid there for a while…we held each other.
You know what? I like just chilling out with a girl and lying there in bed with
them – holding each other. It’s fucking cool and relaxing. I really like this.
I like sex too (or at least trying to blow my spunk), but the chilling out and
lying in bed this is fun.
I know your MAIN question to me now:
mASF – 26, why didn’t you masturbate with your penis after sex?
26 – I don’t know. I just didn’t.

You know what else I did? I fingered her! This was fun. The inside of a vagina
feels really cool…not what I thought it would feel like. It feels very
I fingered her because I didn’t want to give her oral…she was willing to let me
do it, but I was scared about disease. At this point (knowing her for one
night) I feel this is a legit concern. What do you guys think?

Then we had sex again. I had a shitty problem here. I couldn’t get as hard as I
was before. Has anyone ever had this problem? Like I was 70 per cent of the
hardness I was from before.
I literally had to jerk it a bit to get more aroused so I’d be hard enough.
26 – Do you have any hand cream?
HBSmallFry – Yeah, in the bathroom.
26 – I’m gonna grab some to get me started.
So, I sit on the end of the bed and smack my schlong around a bit.
Then I have sex with her. So, I’m banging her right? We’re going for about 8 to
10 minutes…then my penis gets softer…it comes out of the vagina and it’s not
hard enough to go back in.
26 – (Thinking: What the FUCK? Why am I not hard? This is fucking bullshit)
26 – Sorry, I just need some time…I must be a bit nervous or something.
HBSmallFry – You weren’t nervous before (playfully).
26 – I know.
She didn’t care.
She then started licking my chest and shit…man, I don’t know exactly what she
was doing…but it was turning me on.
Ok, I need some advice here…I still have my condom on…I’m 40 per cent hard. I
then get hard again…from cuddling and shit…I go back in with the same condom…is
this SAFE?
To carry on…AGAIN I got soft…I had to stop…this might have happened one more
time, I can’t remember.
Oh yeah, oral stuff…
She starts giving me some oral pleasure…but not a full BJ…just some starter
stuff. It was weird, it didn’t feel that great…like I saw her head near my
penis and I’m thinking: Is she sucking it or is she not? I couldn’t tell? But
it was cool when my balls were licked.
You fuckers are lucky I’m writing about all this shit. Feel free to jerk off.
So I sleep over…I only got like 2 hours sleep for the whole night. We were
KINOing each other a lot. And it’s obviously hard to sleep in a foreign
environment. I slept on a feather pillow or some shit and I got an eye
infection the next day cause of it – allergies. I had to go to the Dr…the whole
deal. I have eye-drops now!
So, in the morning we’re fooling around and I finger her and then fuck her
I had the same problem as before…I couldn’t get really hard, like I was 70 per
cent. And putting on that condom…what a buzz kill…it’s like, yeah, I’m all-hard
and shit and then I gotta put this thing on? Sometimes it’s hard to get on and
then the boner loses its powers.
Then I Westside Glazed her!
Then she gave me a Blumpkin!
Seriously here…so at this point I haven’t blown a load yet.
So, I tell her I’m gonna finish myself off.
I grab some lube and pound out a batch, while she sucked my balls. I shot a
pretty wild load!
HBSmallFry – Just out for an innocent coffee (happy).
HBSmallFry – Did you plan this? (playfully).
26 – No. (Thinking: Yes).

So that’s basically it. We chilled out a little longer and then I drove home.
What’s the status now?
I went out with her again on Sunday. Good times!


Mark B.:
> Ross:  In my own experience, through observation, trial and error, I've found
women can be as idiosyncratic and individualistic as to what they respond to as
any other human, and while some general traits and trends are good to be aware
of, especially among certain age groups, it is ALWAYS WISER to learn to observe
and learn ABOUT THE UNIQUE PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU.  In other words, instead of
relying on a theory that will cover ALL women, learn to scan, observe, cleverly
question the person IN FRONT OF YOU.  Oftentimes, when people generalize, it is
used as a means to make up for a fundamental skill set that they don't even know
they are missing.)

MB: I could not agree more with this line of thinking. I always try to learn as
much as I can about a female and look for "in's," so to speak. I will either
wait for her to make a comment regarding her sexual nature and then steer the
conversation that way or make a very light one myself and look to see how she
reacts. If negative I do not push but rather wait until later or reassess my
> Rio: They expect this man to be critical of all of these things. So you must
be that man and size her up.... and this is how you do it, by telling her
honestly and straight up... that you were looking for a passionate woman to be
in your life, but she doesn't cut it, and so the date ends here... and you will
never see her again. If you are looking for the missing skill that turns cold
women red hot again, I am telling you what it is.
>Ross: I am 100% sure you have done this. I'm not so sure your explanation as to
why it is working is correct. Is it because they are looking for someone to be
critical of them and the criticism is what turns them on? Or is it because you
are suddenly taking away something they had been resisting and now, like most
humans, male and female, they are suddenly afraid of missing out? What if you
could get them excited enough to want you, based on your knowing how they
uniquely respond, so you wouldn't have to worry about her being "cold" in the
first place?)

MB: I recently began articulating a lot more of what I want from women in a
general sense and virtually all women seek to meet the standard that you put
forth. If you say you want a passionate woman then that is what she will give
you because you have elevated yourself to a high level by defining your needs
and expectations. Women are truly masters of telling us what they want and hence
I realized that by doing so they challenge us to do the same.
> Rio: Whenever a chick tells you her problems, she is really saying "Wow, he'll
put up with all my bullshit. He must be a desperate loser-man with no standards
for women he hangs out with, and since he has nothing better to do, I'll take
advantage of it and turn him into a friend!"

MB:  Not always but if he does not make his needs known he will fall into
whatever role she wants him to fall into and it is usually the lowest
denominator. To me if you simply hope that a woman will give you what you want
by virtue of being around her, you better hope again. If you do not make your
needs known to her she will assume you want nothing and give you what she
assumes you want - NOTHING.
>Ross: Or she simply has no emotional control, or what is even more twisted that
you haven't considered is THIS:
She considers her emotions and drama to be her most precious possessions, and
that she is actually GIVING YOU A GIFT BY SHARING THEM WITH YOU!  I shit you
not; here is where you find women with REAL issues. They really think, because
THEY treasure their warped emotions and histrionics, that they bring these to
YOU as a gift. This is a real layer of pathology and women like this DON'T fear
scaring you away, because they see NOTHING to be scared of in this. These are
the histrionic drama queens that can make your life miserable.  I agree,
however, that when a more emotionally stable girl tells you her problems, PRIOR
TO FUCKING YOU, it's usually because she is NOT attracted to you and therefore
is NOT scared of driving you away.

MB: I do not see that great connection between having a woman tell you her
problems and her fucking you. Often after a high level session of disclosure and
your understanding of her will a woman feel more connected to you. In fact in my
experience women that have shared their problems with me I actually ended up
fucking faster than ones that did not.
> Rio: Every time a woman says "Why is it that all men want women for sex.... it
is so bad" or she says "I don't like sex" she is really saying.... "Wow, I can't
believe that you would even stay with me this long without even bothering to
check me out as relationship material or for my sexual ability. I'm starting to
wonder if I can get away doing this to attract other men in the future? Am I
really this hot? Let me push the envelope by saying "I don't like sex" or "I was
raped" or "I hate men" or "I've been fucked by 20 guys at once" to see if this
is too good to be true!"

MB: Wake up call. Women want sex as much as we do, but they need to feel a
little more accepted than we do before they give it up. I do not see that the
above female comments relate any negative attitude toward sex and fucking - they
simply try to elicit your response and attitude about sex so that they know
where you stand. If a woman tells you she does not understand why men want sex
so much and you tell her you want and love sex as well and like a woman who is
passionate and open and willing to do it at any time and enjoy herself, watch
her change her attitude. Women tend to take the lowest common approach and
denominator with respect to sex to keep themselves from looking slutty and cheap
until they know you accept their sexuality. Once they feel you do she can feel
free to open up to you. Often I tell a woman I would like to make love to her to
have her say no right there and then but she ends up inviting me over the same
night where I end up fucking her anyway.  Or if I do not fuck her that night she
will call me and say she needs me to come over and help her with something at
the house or she needs to come over for a massage when I end up fucking her
>Ross: So your LTR had a strong belief about the motivations of others that was
TOTALLY INCORRECT and caused her to draw the wrong conclusion. Maybe it is
possible that women often don't trust their emotions, don't know what to do or
say and that THIS produces much of the behavior that guys INSIST must be
deliberate and calculated "ball-busting" and "shit-testing".

MB: The incident illustrates something that I feel is a breakthrough for us in
our understanding of women. Often I felt very frustrated when women would make
outrageous assumptions of what I wanted and was all about until I told her. One
of my former gf suspected I was a coke head because I fucked her for an hour
straight and when I went to the bathroom after to take a piss when I came out I
had a sniffle in my nose. Another thought I was video taping us having sex
because I told her about a friend of mine who video taped himself and a married
woman having sex. Women tend to have a defined image of us in their head, which
is usually not a very high one and it is up to us to let them know what we want
and what we are all about so that they do not falsely and incorrectly presume
and assume things that are not true. It is up to us to let her know what we are
all about and what we want, even if it is just sex. BUT once they do know what
we want, they begin to feel free and easy to offer us whatever it is that we
> Rio: Let's play Devil's advocate for a minute and suppose that you are fed up
with a particular chick because she is being cold, not acting interested, giving
off "don't touch me" vibes, and is generally being lazy and not trying to
impress you in the sexiness department. Hopefully by now, you would have pointed
out that friendly, sexy chicks are your type.... Since you have created the
frame, you can get to play it out to the end... "Well, it seems that you really
aren't the sort of woman I'm looking for in a relationship. Goodbye. I suppose
I'll never see you again then". What does this achieve? Well, firstly, if she's
just going to be a lazy bee-yatch... good riddance.... but also note that a
woman (unless she is a player herself) is not going to throw away a decent
relationship when presented with a FREEBIE right under her nose! The male
equivalent of rejecting this would be turning down an offer of sex from a sexy
chick! She's not likely to be comfortable with losing you permanently and flake
on you unless she has other better guys in the wings as back-up... and if that's
the case... good riddance anyway!

MB: Good approach but I would tell her I do not approve of her behaviour and
then suggest what I want from her and a woman in general and if she does not or
cannot fit into my mold then time to part ways. As well, I have never found that
being open about being with and having lots of women is detrimental to your
success with any one woman. In fact, I have seen that women who know that you
have and are successful with other women will strive to win and keep your
affections even harder just to beat out the competition. In fact, I have seen
hard to get women soften up and come around after knowing that you could
potentially be talking to or scoping out another woman or women.
> Rio: In conclusion: SET THE FRAME for your interaction with her. It makes all
those other techniques we talk about all the more powerful, focused, and

MB: True, true, true and the more specific the better.
> Ross: I talk about this in my LA Frame Control videos, available from
Straightforward: 1-903-482-1034. Tell 'em Ross sent you.
> Rio: Remember, the game for women is to see how much they can suck from guys
and get away with it.

MB: Not all of them, many women have a sense of fairness that I have seen but
you have to be open with them with the frame you want, otherwise you are fair
game to be sucked into oblivion.
> Rio: About romance.... my slick factor increased when I viewed her as LTR
material. I read once from David Shade that women find it romantic when they
have to try and win a man's heart, and that is what they find romantic... when
they finally win the heart of a man who doesn't give a shit about them!

MB: Here I have to say a flat out no. It is perverse to assume that anyone would
want to be with another person that does not care about them. Women that try to
win a man's heart are ones what are aware of what he wants from life, women, and
relationships. Women that know this try to meet his standard and be accepted by
him and the only way she will know what you want is when you tell her, but you
do not have to give a shit about them when in fact it can be quite counter

If a woman tells me she waits months to sleep with a guy I tell her I am looking
for a woman who does not have hang ups and feel comfortable with her body and
herself and does not fall into the generally expected mold of society. This
often is enough to accelerate the process.


Amorphis from Romania:
This is what I did on the New Year's Eve. The story:
This is a story of what good looks can do.  On New Year's Eve, I was invited by
a friend of mine to spend this great night with him and his friends at his
girlfriend's house. I went to this party with the attitude of NOT being the
Alpha Male». Why? Because a couple of days before I went shopping with this
friend of his and I played the A.M. role, and because of this the girlfriend of
this friend of mine (who is a total AFC) started to flirt with me, and I was
feeling kinda guilty because I didn't want to steal his gf. They were having a
relationship for more than 2.5 years and I was thinking like "what the fuck am I
doing? He invites me to the party and I will steal his gf?!"
As I was saying...I went to this party with the attitude of NOT being an A.M.
There were 3 girls (7.5-8), his girlfriend (9) and a girl (10) who appeared in a
video clip here in Romania. I was into a little shy state of mind and I began
talking to one of the 7.5 (I was verrrrry well dressed, I'm also good looking
and have some very beautiful eyes).  (Also I have to mention that I have a
girlfriend who had to go on New Year's Eve with her parents to Austria, so I
wasn't interested in picking up a new girl.)
So...I began to talk to this girl, we smoked a little, I drank a Martini and she
suddenly says : 'LET'S DANCE!'
'Ok' I say. We dance a little and she begins to tell me that I'm very handsome
that she haven't seen in a long time such a handsome guy like me and that she
never saw such beautiful eyes.
Me: ahhh...ok.
Her: You're very handsome.(again)
Me: ok
I look into her eyes then to her lips, then to her eyes again and I start to
kiss her. We kiss for about 5 minutes.
Her: Do you want to go into a room?
Me: Ok
We enter the room, close the door.
Her: Do you want to do this?
Me: Yes.
Her: I never did it with someone from the first time.
Me: Me neither.
Her: Do you have a condom?
Me: No.
Her: Do you want to do this?
Me: Yes, but I don't have a condom, do you have one?
Her: No I don't.
She asks around if someone had a condom. Nobody had.
So...we went to buy some. We found a store open (I guess God was with me that
night), she buys the condoms, we get back and the room was now occupied (one of
the 7.5's was watching TV). We go into the kitchen and start talking...
Fluff talk for a while then:
Her: Do you want just a one night stand or a long term relationship?
Me: A LTR, but before to get into something like this I must know the person
well, so before I would have something like this with you I would have to spend
with you about 3 months and after that I'd decide if I want you for LTR or not.
'Fluff talk'
'Fluff talk'
'Fluff talk'
Her: I feel a little weird.
Me: Me too.
Her: Do you still want to do it from now.
Me: No
Her: It's better this way.
Me: Yes, and if I'm honest with you, I don't think I could've done it. Mentally
I am not ready right now.
Her: It's better this way.
Me: And when we'll do it, I want to be spontaneous. I don't want to be something
programmed like: let's do it and we do it. If it is, if we feel to do it THEN we
do it.
Her: It's better this way. You know...I like you.
We go back to the others...and after 20 minutes we start again to kiss, we get
very hot, we get into a room, she closes the door, she undresses me and she says
it's been a long time since she fucked a powerful guy like me... I undress her
and I fuck her like a crazy horse.
After the fuck she says 'thank you for fucking me so good.'
We chat a little and she thanks me again for fucking her.  In the end, I must
say that all the time I acted totally indifferent with this girl.
PS- If there are people from Bucharest, Romania who read this email list then
please email me at val***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] . I'm searching for a wing.


Rio (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
Happy Screw Year to everyone, I just got myself back to Japan and did some PU on
the flight. No real success unfortunately, cause I ended up screening a chick
who was pretty satisfied with her boyfriend.... which is when I made several
more discoveries of note. Plus, I still have to answer the questions from the
best cocky & Funny frame.

First of all, one thing that you will notice when you set the frame of screening
for a woman, is that they are going to TRY to make an effort to attract you.
That is, they will tell you what they think you want to hear. If you are
screening them for possible relationship material (which is what I am
suggesting), they are basically going to tell you a whole pile of SHIT.

They will try and convince you that they will be a good woman, and that they are
kind, and that they are trustworthy, and that they will not lie (*cough*
*cough*)... , and will not cheat (*bleaughh!!!*) and this is what you want to
get them to do.... because it sets up a frame of consistency for them. Now, they
have the FEAR OF LOSING YOU by fucking it up. You force them to invest a fair
bit of effort into attracting you, by making all this shit up. They are going to
try to get a return on their investment now, by sticking to all those things
they said they were.
Women THINK that they can get away with seducing/manipulating guys in this way
(if this is what your particular target is doing)... but all of us being astute
PUAs KNOW that we are going to call them on their shit... EVENTUALLY... and we
are going to screen them DOUBLY HARD when we think that what they say is too
good to be true.

Rio's screening rule:   If she seems too good to be true... she probably is.

Eventually, however, when you advance the seduction, you are going to notice a
few things which don't fit the bill. She WILL GET BUSTED ON HER SHIT if she is
lying. She will also get busted when she says things which we don't like either.

Screening point #1: If you set the "screen for relationship" frame, and she
fails to mention boyfriend until later (when she tries to heap you with
problems).... she is trying to lead you on.

You don't need to ask a chick whether she has a BF or not (it's bad, as we all
know), rather, if you set the cocky & funny frame, then she should mention it
earlier on... because if she plays along and mentions it later, mentioning all
her problems.... then she is beginning to lead you on and then it's time to call
her on her shit.

Screening point #2 : If she already has a boyfriend, you can downgrade her
status to fuck buddy.

Originally, I thought that if a chick says "I have a boyfriend" it's more of an
alarm that says...."Go away, I don't want you"... but now I see that this is not
the case.
What she's REALLY trying to say when she already has a boyfriend is "I have
invested a lot of time and energy in trying to turn one guy into a marriage
partner.... so I'm not likely to get any return on my investment if I have a
relationship with you, right now. I don't think you are worth the risk... unless
you convince me otherwise"

Now, it makes a lot more sense that rather than try and destroy the boyfriend,
to start screening her for a different set of features.... such as "Have you
ever cheated on your boyfriend?", and "Have you ever made love spontaneously
outdoors?", "Have you ever had sex with a guy you have just met in a few
hours?", "Have you ever had a one night stand?" and this is when you can amp the
sexual questions.... because now she has failed her LTR.... and since you have
already forced her to try to seduce you with her bullshit, she has fallen into
the good-girl consistency frame. Now, she can see her relationship with you
(which was only about 20 minutes long) fall to pieces. Of course, if she doesn't
even want to play THIS game.... then do yourself a favour and politely excuse
yourself and present yourself to the next woman you see. This will cause your
original target to throw a fit at this point.

What happened in my screening exercise on the plane, was that the chick told me
a whole PILE of bullshit about how nice, kind, etc. she was... and later on as I
was amping the tension, she spews out the boyfriend issue which she should have
mentioned earlier (I busted her on it). Also I busted her on a few other things
which I didn't like either. For example, she said that if she loses her job,
then she will consider getting married, and I said "Because you only like men
for their money?", and that got her on the backfoot. Then she said that she
can't cook, and I said that she'd better learn cause that's an important skill
to have. She also told me that she doesn't get angry either (that's not what
happened when I politely excused myself on her and talked to the next chick!)
Eventually, she tried the old "Heap boyfriend problems on the PUA" and that's
when I got really shitty. I asked her when she was getting married, and she
didn't care that she wasn't (good sign for BF, she liked him because of sex
probably). I asked her about the boyfriend anyway, and she said that he was
kinda selfish and nasty, never called her, etc... so I said that I would be
exactly the same with her, because she had a shit-load of faults as well... and
I could understand why the guy teased her so much, but I couldn't understand why
he could put up with her, because I surely couldn't!" (now THAT'S how to destroy
the boyfriend!)

That's when I degraded her status to ONS.... but she wouldn't play ball, so I
politely excused myself and talked to the next chick and that's when she got
shitty. So much for not getting angry!! Just as well I found that out!

When I look back to some of Svengali's stuff, he often found that he'd bust
chicks when they lied to him... and they'd get all shitty when he caught them
out and blew them off. That's how the game is played anyway... because he was
looking for women he could trust.

Screening a chick for LTR sounds counterproductive to a lot of guys... granted.
This indeed is my thought on it too.... but just like sex attracts men, women
think that talking about sex to men is counter productive. Similarly, talking
about relationships with women gets them excited.

I'm basically interested in putting the idea in their heads that there is a LTR
waiting for them IF they are everything I want them to be (and that includes
adventurous, sexy, wanting to play with me). I make various comments during the
sarge that lightly hint at them that I am asking these questions to see how we
would go together as a couple.

E.g. "Do you like skiing? You do? I think we should go skiing some time, just
the two of us"

Note how I slipped that image in? This makes the sarge very enjoyable, because
it is romantic to the chick (future pacing possible relationship). It makes your
seduction get really smooth and slick, which I like a lot.

One thing that I DO like about this method is that the PU actually becomes
really simple and enjoyable.... because the chick tries to seduce ME for a
change and that is the real joy of it. I don't have to use any gimmicks, or run
any pre-made patterns or routines. The screening C&F frame IS the routine.
Sure, 50% of what she says back to me is shit, but she works to my fantasy, and
saves me a lot of effort. Once you snag her curiosity enough... then SHE'S
asking you the questions to keep the conversation going.... not me! She's also
taking a lot of care into answering my questions... in case she fucks it up.

Also, I often find out VERY quickly what the chick's game is going to be.
Eventually I end up screening her for sexuality, in a non-threatening way... and
that is usually when you completely blow the woman's cover of trying to lead you
on (if there was one to begin with!). Now that she's subscribed to your idea of
being together.... she has to consider the consequences (i.e. sex), and this is
when things can get ugly because if she was bullshitting to you up until now....
she's going to get her shit called on HARD and she's going to make herself look
pretty stupid.

But do you want to know the best part about all of it IF she gets her shit
called on?
She believes that it's TOTALLY HER FAULT! Done properly, if she has issues with
the sex part, it's going to seem to her that her seduction of you has fucked up.
She will then proceed to BLAME HERSELF that HER seduction skills aren't up to
(better her than us, hey?)
That's when she gets angry at herself and disappointed that she cannot attract
you, without putting out... but since you haven't spelled out your desire for
her, she cannot blow the whistle on you.
Couple that with the fact that you've already ejected and are now running the
same routine on another chick right in front of her, and now she's REALLY
jealous! You came across to her as a decent guy looking for a partner... so
nobody suspects that you are a jerk in disguise! Everyone thinks that you're a
decent upstanding guy.

It's one thing to reject a meat-market man, but to be rejected by an otherwise
NICE GUY (hint hint!) who showed genuine interest, offered her something great,
and who left and didn't get all upset when he didn't get his way... for some
reason REALLY pisses women off!
Take the male equivalent... would you more likely be pissed off by a rejection
from a hot chick who offered you sex.... or by a ugly feminazi who wants to beat
you up?
The hot chick, right?

A woman's values..... I never bother to elicit these anymore. What I do instead
is ask her what women want from a relationship, and she usually tells me what
SHE wants in a relationship. That gives me a point to screen from, and then I
can check them off and agree with the bits I like (using pattern language,
trust, communication, beams of light connecting two people, etc.), and tease her
on the bits I don't. For example, the chick on the plane told me that she calls
her boyfriend all the time and it pisses him off. I told her that I had a
girlfriend who did this all the time to me and it really pissed me off as well,
and if she was going to do that with me... I wouldn't like it either, unless it
was a booty call.

If you note my little field report, you will notice that I usurped all the
characteristics of her boyfriend. So if she said he was an asshole, then I would
say that I am one too, and I would not put up with her shit either, just like
him (note how I am replacing the boyfriend in her mind?). That way, I don't fall
into the chick-sympathy trap. I am screening her for viability NOW, so her and
all her shit can take a hike if she wants to get on the train.
It was at about this point that she was getting pissed off and trying to get
some power back for herself... and that's when I dumped her as possible LTR
status.... and moved on.

S. Commented: By reading your recent posts a few times I guess that the basis of
your technique is to make her answer questions about her in relationship (that
is the relationship frame). To her it will seem like she is seducing you. Frame
change: you go into sexual screening questions which she will likely answer
since she was seducing you before. Then it seems to her that she was seducing
you in a more sexual way. After that you will have a big value since she made an
effort to convince you. Is this your main way of building your value: that you
are man enough to ask them questions about themselves?

Rio: That's pretty much it in a nutshell. I make a point of building her
curiosity and giving her values that women really want (I don't need to elicit
these... A good rule I learnt was : "Don't listen to what she says she wants....
listen to what you KNOW she wants"). Of course, women want relationships and
friendships... so I set this up for her... the chance of having a deep
friendship that lasts for ages... and is sexual... IF she is everything I'm
looking for.

SIDE NOTE: Just something that most guys are completely unaware of..... even
when you are only trying to be friends with women, they will assume that you
have screened them and accepted them for a sexless relationship! This is a huge
win for a woman in her mind... They will talk to their friends how they managed
to snag you... without even trying, or needing to put out! Then you will hear
from her about how most men want women for sex, and how that is bad, but they
are so happy they met you, because you don't make the same demands for your

This is why you should screen EVERY WOMAN you meet for a sexual relationship,
and be prepared to WALK on any woman who doesn't agree to it! Why have lots of
non-sexual relationships with many female friends, when you can have LOTS OF
SEXUAL relationships with many female friends?

You see, any female friend of yours (fucking you or not) is a GIRLFRIEND. The
women see it that way, because they have a relationship with you. So then, how
many girlfriends do you have?

SIDE NOTE #2 : There are women out there who think like whores. That is, they
only give sex away when they feel they have sucked enough money, time and
attention from a man. This is their strategy. Thing is, when they get enough
time, money, and attention from a sucker AFC, they don't feel the need to repay
the man in any way. Why change the strategy if she can get it all for free? (I
think we all know this)

BUT what happens when you actually manage to fuck a woman who thinks this way?
I'll tell you.... the sex is shitty. She doesn't enjoy it because she uses sex
as a tool to get what she wants. She feels as if she's doing it to keep the guy
only and not for her own enjoyment... thus she doesn't enjoy it, and then I
don't enjoy her "performance". She is a woman you cannot trust because she is
openly MANIPULATING people to get what she wants. This is something you should
pick up on your screening immediately. This is also why Svengali made a point of
only sexing women who WANTED to have sex with him, rather than women who would
only "allow" him to have sex (Big difference!). So if you meet these nasty
women, you "hit them where it hurts".... and that is by dangling the freebie
relationship in front of her... and then calling her on her shit and walking on
her if she turns out to be a tease... because if she is a tease, the sex is
*guaranteed* to be shitty even if you do twist her arm into it. That's why you
shouldn't even try to manipulate women.

{Also note, that I am NOT being ingenuine by putting a relationship on the
table. I WANT the relationship too. Simply speaking though, if she is good at
sex (which I hint at in screening) then I am going to want to keep fucking her
over and over again, for a long, drawn out relationship!}

Do you guys remember the movie "The Breakfast Club"? There was one scene in
there where they are talking about the prom-queen bitch princess and someone
says something to the tune of "If you don't have sex, you're a prude. If you do
have sex, you're a slut. It's a trap your friends set for you. So what do you
become? A tease."

The method I am using doesn't work all the time to seduce ALL women. No method
can turn all women into sex monsters. What it is good at doing, is weeding out
the shit from the great chicks... and when you blow off a shitty woman, she sure
feels that she's made a big mistake that she'll be hard pressed to fix.

SIDE NOTE # 3 : There is also one other type of woman who will not be seducible
through relationship screening. And they are the ones who detest the fact that
you are screening them at all... and they will probably walk on you. They look
VERY uncomfortable talking to you. Thing is, you can do without this kind of
woman too... because she is basically expecting you to like her NO MATTER WHAT!
In other words, she is desperate.... and it would help for us to wonder WHY a
woman would need to be desperate for a relationship in the first place! (In
which case you screen her for ONS)


Actually, when I think about it, what I am using seems very similar in format to
the original Maniac Plan. Starts out pretty simply, and then turns into an open
discussion of sex.

Yes... it DOES make her think that she is looking at you sexually. You are
basically telling her what to think about herself, because you are guessing at
her personality. You see something about her that makes you more interested in
her...  E.g. "You seem like a passionate person....".  Then what she will do is
see how "Passionate" relates to herself (women being the self-referential
creatures they are) and then tell you things about herself that fit this
concept. She believes you immediately that you are correct in your guessing,
because you just met her and first impressions count for a lot. So then
accepting this suggestion of yours this in mind, she RATIONALIZES IT into her
being, just for you!

This is also a reason why I field all my first impressions about the chick
straight away. It is a BRILLIANT tool for eliciting things about her for
screening, and makes for great conversation, some wonderful compliments, all of
which eventually lead to rapport. It makes getting to know someone very, VERY
easy. I don't know if it is mainly to ask questions about themselves.

What if she starts screening me? Well, I don't play her game. I analyze things
about her questions, and whether I think they are valid questions to ask me in
terms of a sexual relationship. Things like "What's your star sign?" is not very
important, and personally, I don't like having my palms read and having the cube
run on me. She is then liable to interpret whatever she wants about me then...
and it won't be what I want to hear! Similarly, I don't use the cube either...
as I am a fan of cold reading style - making intelligent guesses as to what her
personality MAY be like so I can screen them. After all, gimmicks are really
conversational crutches, and what happens when you meet a chick that thinks that
the cube and palm reading is bullshit, just like you? Then you look pretty

If she asks me things like "Are you a player?" then I will probably tell her to
piss off, because that's a rude thing to say. I will do that because I am
screening HER, and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! If she is going to go through a
relationship with me and be insecure all the time that I am fucking some other
chick, then she has failed screening... and then she gets screened for ONS, and
if she fails that... goodbye!

When she asks questions of me, I answer honestly. It really depends what the
question is, but if I think the question is really misguided, comes from an
insecurity of hers, or I think that she is trying to screen me in a overly
critical fashion... she gets her shit called on. I don't want a chick who
screens me overly critically.

I want her to accept me as I am.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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