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No mo’ edumacation
2/1/03 10:19:41 AM Eastern Standard Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list
is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also,
as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.


Tyler Durden (Tyler's posts are reposted from Mystery's Lounge with his
I sarged the Dahm triplets ( tonight while I was hanging with
Manifestis, Paps, and Dreamweaver.. Craig left early.. ouch!
I spot big group huddled over in the club with security surrounding them.. I ask
who it is, and apparently it's the Dahm triplets from Playboy magazine.  I try
to approach, but they've got this big entourage and are totally locked in.  I
try to chat them, but they've got big shields up and all that. Nobody can really
chat them. It's kinda weird.
I decide to play it up cool, and when they get up, Paps initiates them and they
ask us to take a pic with them so they can feel cool or something, I dunno.
I play it up very unimpressed with the whole thing.  Try to chat chicks around
me in the meantime to the extent that I can in the big groupie huddle.
TD: What is this? This is lame, why are we just taking pics?
THEM: Yeah, I know..
TD: What, you guys are supposed to be some kind of models or something...
THEM: Yeah..
TD: Yeah, my buddy says Penthouse or something...?
THEM: (giggling) Playboy.
TD: Oh yeah? Are you like Pamela Anderson or something?
THEM: (giggling)  No, we're the Dahm triplets..
TD: OMG.. you guys are all dressed the same!  That's so CUTE.. you guys are like
the POWERPUFF GIRLS (I'm sorry, but this is the ALL TIME ULTIMATE use of this
THEM: OMG.. hahahahhahahahhaha..
PAPS: TylerDurden is incredible.. he can read minds..
TD: What.. oh I dunno if she's ready for this..
PAPS: Tell me your birthday..
TD: Nooo way... FUCK THIS.. They won't give us their REAL birthday..  They'll
give us their FAKE CELEBRITY birthdays... I'm not down with this.. Paps dude, do
you think they're trustworthy???
THEM: No, no, no.. I'll show you my driver's license, I swear..
TD: OK.. think of your birthday.. no not that! your BIRTHDAY...
THEM: hahaha... OK
TD: December 12th..
THEM: OMG.. wow..
TD: Hmm.. I dunno..
THEM:  No no, here's my driver's license (pulls her driver's license out of her
TD: 25?? You guys are 25??
THEM: Yeah.. how old did you think we were??
TD: I dunno, like 30 or some shit.. Well, if you're 25 I GUESS you can MAYBE
hang with us then.. what do you have going for you other than being in our age
THEM: hahaha.. I dunno, lots of stuff!!
TD: Like what? Are you adventurous? Cause if you're not adventurous we can
definitely not hang with you...(thinking to myself, yeah you fuck a 70 year old
geezer Hugh Hefner, but don't remind me)
THEM: We're sooo totally adventurous..
TD: Oh yeah? Like how?
THEM: Ummmm.......
TD: Man Paps, these guys think slow dude..
THEM: No no.. like starting from when we came to L.A. when we were 19 with like
totally nothing... and we've gone hand gliding and to parties and all sorts of
amazing things..
PAPS: So, yeah, supposedly she likes David Bowie (he'd used the David Bowie
opener earlier)
TD: Oh yeah? You guys are definitely trouble.. totally bad girls..
THEM: hahaha.. for suuure..
THEM: You know, we haven't met him yet.. I'm sure we will (I'm thinking WICKED,
she's social proofing herself right now)
TD: Whoa..  well, you're definitely not meeting him in this club!
THEM: hahaha... we've never been here before..
SECURITY GUARD:  We have to move clubs.. go, now (he's like their pimp or
something.. they leave right there)
THEM: OMG we're so sorry we have to leave..
OUTERTRIPLET: OMG I'm sorry we didn't get to chat more (the girl on the outside
who couldn't chat me much, as she's shuffled out in a flurry)..
TD: Paps dude, that was funny-ass shit... oh well, nice try..
We got the pics..
I'm getting ready to board my flight from Chicago back to Toronto, and scope the
gate to see if any HBs are sitting waiting.

I spot this 5'10" blonde HB10 sitting down in front of the television. I roll
up, and sit across from her.. She is listening to her discman, and won't
acknowledge me.

Mystery keeps telling me A 10 "HAS TO CHOOSE YOU, YOU CANNOT SEDUCE A 10"... he
says this non-stop,  so I figure I've got to let off.  So instead of persisting,
I chat up the lady next to me.  I tell the story of how I PU'ed the Playboy Dahm
Triplets, and get her cracking up. The model can't tell what I'm talking about
on account of her discman. The point is to social proof myself in front of her
anyway, which apparently wasn't going to be enough to chat the model before we
board the plane.

The plane boards, and I'm incredibly disappointed that I couldn't do anything to
sarge this model.  I felt really let down.

As I'm getting on to the plane, I notice that the model is sitting near the row
that I'm supposed to be in.. could she be sitting beside me? could she be?!?!?!
HOLY SHIT, I'M RIGHT BESIDE HER.. SWEEEET.. One whole HOUR to game up this

I try to chat her, but she is ICE COLD. She is sleeping, while listening to her
discman, curled up facing away from me.

ME: hey, wake up, the plane is taking off.. WTF??
HER: hah, yeah, I fly all the time..
ME: WTF? gimme your window seat then..
HER: no I like it..
ME: what do you do where you fly all the time (now this is a RED LIGHT VIOLATION
of my NUMBER ONE RULE *never* ask a girl questions about herself BEFORE she asks
you, BUT, I am POSITIVE that she is a supermodel, so I'm setting up the neg)
HER: I'm a model..
ME: like what, a handmodel..
HER: (pauses, gauges her shock, tries to keep a straight face).. umm.... no...
hahahahaha.. I'm an everything else model.
ME: nice.. (start to talk)
HER: (puts back on her headphones before I can say anything, but still is

Alright, now all that I'm thinking is, "fuck this totally sucks.. I thought that
my game was so on lately, but I can't even sarge supermodels after hanging out
with Mystery for this long.. I'm so fucking lame, I'll never learn to sarge
supermodels.. these chicks just want goodlooking guys sophisticated guys, and I
can tell that she's not one of those obnoxious chicks who likes my C&F.. she
thinks I'm fucking lame-ass, and I'll never get these chicks cause they KNOW
that they can get better looking guys.. how am I supposed to sarge these chicks
if they won't even acknowledge me in the first place.. obviously my looks just
aren't there, cause this chick just thinks I'm so lame.."

So I figure I'm screwed, and I'm really feeling let down. My big chance, and I
choke. STILL, I hear Mystery's voice in my head "A 10 HAS TO CHOOSE YOU, YOU
CANNOT SEDUCE A 10" (this in reference to celeb types, not down-to-earth 10s)..
So I want to keep trying, but I know it'll come off needy.

Next the stewardess comes over and asks if we want to get some complimentary
drinks. Cosmo-dork is sleeping, so here's how it goes from there:

ME: SMACK (hit her pretty HARD on the arm, so she wakes up).. wake up dorkhead..
the beverages are here..
HER: hahaha..
ME: WTF is this shit?? what are you on Japanese time or some shit??
HER: yeah, I'm sooo tired..
ME: well it sure doesn't make you very good company for a flight you know!
HER: hahahahaha..
HER: (wakes up totally now).. OMG I'm sooo sorry.. I'm awake, I'm awake..
ME: oh wait, a model.. you can't eat.. do you want me to grab some CHARCOAL
PILLS for you??
HER: hahaha.. no I can eat..
ME: alright, that's all good.. I'll even get out of your way so you can purge
HER: hahahaha.. no no no, I don't *do* that!
ME: hmm.. I dunno if I can hang with you now.. what do you have going for you??
HER: hahahaha.. I dunno, what do you mean??
ME: well, are you adventurous?
HER: yeah, totally.. I do so many things in Milan and Japan, etc., etc.
(QUALIFYING herself to me)
ME: hmmm.. OK.. actually, you're a model.. SWEET, you must be rich.. look at how
run down I am.. fuck this shit, I want to be a stay-at-home husband, and you can
support me..
HER: hahaha I'm not *that* rich..
ME: fuck that.. well actually, wait, do you have a big screen TV?? We're broken
ME: nice.. I can keep up on my soaps..
HER: yeah totally.. I'm ALL ABOUT 'Days of our Lives'
ME: you really watch that?? hahahaha, I was *kidding*.. don't tell me, you watch
HER: no no no, I don't watch that one..
ME: man you guys are funny shit.. alright that's all good.. yo check this out, I
just got back from SD (San Diego).. that was SWEET.. what was Japan like?
HER: pretty nice actually..
ME: yeah I bet all the Jap guys like you.... "ooooooooooh, white geewwwllllll"
(Japanese accent imitation)
HER: hahaha.. I dunno..
ME: me, yeah, I could see that..
HER: hey!
ME: ha! you are FIESTY! you are a BAD GIRL..
HER: hahaha.. what did you do in SD??
ME: hanging with the crew.. all that..
HER: who??
ME: my bros work with Hugh Hefner and all that.. whatever, it was all right.. I
met alot of celebs and shit..
HER: WHO????
ME: who DIDN'T I meet? Hey have you heard of the DAHM TRIPLETS?
HER: yeah!
ME: (I proceed to recount the PU of the Dahm Triplets, and crack her up.. I tell
it in DETAIL, from how I sucked them out and ALL the lines.. this WORKS HER UP

Then I proceed to talk about why they aren't good enough for me, and describe IN
DETAIL what kind of expectations I have from girls, and all that.. I talk about
possibly fucking them, but how I didn't feel like it.. but make it CLEAR that I
like fucking girls.

ME: yeah I dunno about models anymore.. you've gotta have the MODEL BOYFRIEND
PROFILE.. you know, you've gotta be their daddys and shit.. you know, they say
they aren't beautiful, and it's like "I know.. but stick with me and I won't
judge you for it.. you'll be alright.."
HER: yeah totally.. everyone does stuff for us.. they're like our DADDYS..
ME: yeah totally.. I have an Asian girl now I'm seeing in T.O., but actually I
don't mind her so much, cause we can't understand each other..

I proceed to DESCRIBE IN DETAIL the Queens Street date, where we go try on sexy
clothes and go on Speakers Corners.. She is totally getting excited..

HER: asshole! hahahahaha OMG asshole!!
ME: yeah I'm a total asshole.. why do you like that so much??
HER: hahaha... I dunno..
ME: she's the PERFECT GIRL for me.. she can't TALK.. SWEEEET.. actually I
*really DO* like her..
HER: really?
ME: well, not enough to stop seeing other girls and all that.. but she's
alright.. she's cool. (conveys I'm alpha, makes her think she has a chance.. I
dunno if it comes through over the internet, but she was CLEARLY testing me to
see if I was beta here, and I PASSED by saying I fuck many chicks right to her
HER: hahaha.. MEN!
HER: hahaha.. well at least you'll have somewhere to hang out in Korea when you
want to visit..
ME: nice! Thanks for the suggestion.. hey wait a sec.. I dunno, it'll be kinda
awkward.. like you know, is this still ON or not?? The best way would be to pawn
her off as JUST FRIENDS right before she leaves.. but then still HANG OUT with
her.. AWESOME.. she'll HAVE to have me down there, and I can meet her model
friends! NICE!
HER: hahahaha... OMG MEN!
ME: yeah, it's great, huh? : )

Then I talk all about my lifestyle, habits, what leads to success, why she'll
need to stick with ME if she wants to do well in life.. I talk ALL ABOUT my
successful lifestyle, so it contrasts how LAME her lifestyle is.. I talk about
how I'm in Queens..

HER: yeah I have a friend there..
ME: yeah she probably doesn't talk to you anymore, right? We develop total snob
shields after we've been there a while (REVERSING THE SHIELD, WHICH I KNOW

So now the plane is disembarked.. She makes EXTREME efforts to stick near me,
all that shit..

BUT THEN: she goes in the DIFFERENT CUSTOMS LINE than me.. I'm thinking WHAT THE
FUCK IS THIS SHIT?? FUCK I *KNEW* I'd never close a supermodel.. I'm fucking
bullshit, I'm a total fucking fakeass PUA.. I can't sarge these chicks beyond
attraction.. I'll never get this shit.. I was seriously feeling let down..

I think "FUCK, I should go into her line.. fuck, I should just do it..", but in
the back of my mind, I keep hearing Mystery's voice "YOU CANNOT SEDUCE A 10..
SHE *HAS* TO CHOOSE *YOU*".. This keeps repeating again and again, and I'm
suspecting it's a shit test now.. I decide that I must COMMIT to NOT approaching
her, but in my mind I KNOW that most chicks won't go to the extent to CHANGE
LINES to join you, even if they WANT TO.. So I'm really let down, and think I'm

I feel a tap on my shoulder..

HER: hey.. I decided that your lineup looks more fun.. so I'm hanging with YOU..
ME: hahaha.. hmm, I dunno about this.. I'm not defending you from all these
American lunatics..
HER: hahaha.. I always get what I want..
ME: hahaha OK tiger, take it easy.. maybe not *always* (touching her face.. this
HER: I should add you to my IM..
ME: hmm.. I dunno about this shit.. I told you I dunno about models..
HER: ha.. JERK!! JERK!! JERK!!
ME: hahaha.. yeah I'm a jerk.. (moving closer)
HER: yeah JERK! (moving closer)
ME: yeah I'm a JERK (moving closer)
HER: jerk (closer)
ME: jerk (closer)
HER: jerk (really closer)

Nice.. I KNEW that I was *IN* as soon as she pulled out the Cosmo Magazine to
show me her pictures, and brag about how many girls in the magazine she hangs
with and all that..

Too bad she had to leave immediately for another plane (she told me well
before), and all I have to show for it is a new chick on my fucking IM.. FUCK!



Veroxii (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
Had some fun last night, and would like to get some comments from the brothers
here. :-)

Background: I'm visiting my family in South Africa at the moment. The town I'm
staying in is pretty lame with extremely uptight and conservative folk around.
Luckily this week the local university reopened for the freshmans, so the bars
and pubs around there are packed with young fresh pussy. :-)

I went out alone last night (after finally getting a break from family and
friend commitments). Here is how it went:

I opened a couple of sets first to warm up. Was mostly trying out Style's
"lipstick test". It worked pretty well. Then I spot a pretty cute 2-set just
sitting by themselves. An HB7 and HB8.5. Really not bad for the scene.

So I saunter on over and open with the lipstick test. HB7 had some lipstick with
her and they really enjoyed the little game. Played my normal game with them
being C&F for a bit and just having fun, making them laugh. Also, I did qualify
them for being adventurous and spontaneous quite early on. And they were trying
to impress me with their stories. So far so good.

Now I'm not sure how I came up with the following, but it just happened:
Me: So have you guys ever kissed another girl before?

HB8.5: No!

HB7: Yeah, once... but I was drunk...

Me (to HB7): So who kisses better? Guys or girls?

HB7: I dunno... it was just different... I like kissing guys more, I guess...

Me: I guess it depends on who's doing the kissing!!... How would you rate
yourself as a kisser?? From 1 to 10, I mean??

HB7: 10!!!

HB8.5: 11!!!

Me: Haha! You guys are so full of it! I bet  you're a 8.5, and  you're like a
7... tops!

HB7 + HB8.5: Hahaha! No way!!! bla bla...

Me: Hang on!

Here I put my index-finger in the air to make them stop. And I do the tic-tac
routine. So I stop, take out 3 tic-tacs from my bag... all very dramatic... put
one in my mouth, really seductively, sucking on my finger. Then one for HB7 who
really goes for it and sucks my finger for like 30 seconds! HB8.5 just laughs
and goes like "OMG!!". Then it's her turn and she does the same too! Sucking

Me: Hmmm... I dunno... I'm still not convinced.

I point to my cheek on HB8.5's side. She kisses my cheek.

Me: No! That's pathetic... like this!

I lean in and kiss HB7 slowly on the cheek.. moving closer to her ear, and
giving it a slight nibble. I can feel she's enjoying it! Then I point to my
cheek on HB7's side, and she kisses me back exactly like I did her.

Me:  Ok, I'll give you a second chance.

I pointed to my cheek again. This time she kissed me and nibbled my ear as
well... trying to make it last longer than HB7!! :-D

Sidenote: By this time I couldn't fuckin' believe this was happening and I was
getting social-proofed into oblivion!!! Also notice I was keeping it really fun
and up-beat. We were laughing all the time! :-)

Me: This is tough! I'd say it's close to a tie, but I'm still leaning towards
HB7... We definitely need a tie-break!

I point HB7 to my neck, and tilt my head to expose it. She goes right in and I'm
telling you, my toes curled over!! I was moaning audibly and REALLY enjoying it!

Me: OMFG!!!!  You've GOT to try that. That's fuckin amazing!!

Now I think this was a key moment. HB7 didn't object to kissing HB8.5's neck,
and HB8.5 didn't mind being kissed right then. And while HB7 is kissing the left
side of HB8.5's neck, I started kissing HB8.5's right side. After this I simply
looked HB7 in the eyes and kissed her on the lips. Tongue-down. Repeated with
HB8. We were all kissing each other. It was crazy!

I suggested we go somewhere more private (I was getting some extremely envious
looks from other guys!! lol!). Logistics fucked me a bit here. They both lived
in dorms where guys weren't allowed in. So we ended up in the back of my car in
the parking garage, with me getting a blowjob from them porno-style. So all's
well that ends well.

Now I'm wondering if I've stumbled onto a technique that has a good percentage
chance of working regularly, or if I just got lucky. Of course I'll be testing
this again tonight, but I'd love some input from you guys on this. We really
need a proper phase-shift that we can use on 2-sets like these.


Papa (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
While I was in LA, I had my favorite sarges while winging with Devilhimself (aka
Prince Anu). He does a great job of occupying cock-blocks while I
much so that he was the best wing I've sarge with...because while he is
occupying several cock-blocks in my set, I'm able to isolate and close my
targets easily. Here's an account of a couple of my favorite sarges.
FR: Devilhimself and Papa Wing in Front of Orion's Students
After doing several street approaches, Devilhimself and I run into Orion giving
a workshop to a bunch of students on 3rd Street Promenade in Santa I
can't resist the urge to showoff. I find a 4-set walking by consisting of 2
girls and 2 guys...with the girls and guys holding hands. I open them up with an
opinion opener with Devilhimself.
"Hey guys. I want to get your opinion on something. I found this thing off the
Internet that tells me insights about your personality and finds out if you are
cool enough to hang out with me. It's probably bullshit, but I want to find out
for sure. Do you guys have lipstick on you." They do and after reading qualities
about them, I make fun of them and tease them for actually believing in the
lipstick personality test.
Then I find out how everyone knows each other...
ME: Hey. So how long have you guys been going out.
AFC1: We haven't been really going out. We've just known each other since high
ME: Cool. You guys just look like the cutest couples ever.
AFCs: Hahahaha. (smiles)
Next, I have Prince Anu tell them that I am a psychic and that I'll come back to
read their minds. While I eject from the set, I walkup to Orion's students and
they ask, "What are you doing over there?!?" I reply to them, "Well, I
smiled...opened...befriended the set...found out how they know each other...and
since they are not 2 minutes, I'll isolate that hot girl...and
So I come back to the set, a gaze into the eyes of one of the hot girls, and
bring her arms really close to mine...and talk about soul gazing...and I read
her mind by telling her what she's thinking about...then I grab her and start
making out with her. Devilhimself starts giving high fives to me and then
Orion's students. I join in the fun, but forget about occupying the set.
The guys are pissed and are trying to drag the hot chick away because nobody is
occupying the set...everyone is simply giving each other high fives. However,
the hot chick is just standing there, staring at me with a doggy dinner bowl
look. I laugh my ass off...with pride...because I was able to explain to Orion's
students exactly how I was going to close this girl and then DO IT.
FR: Playing Hollywood Style with Actresses
Devilhimself and I walk into a bar in Santa Monica and see a 3-set of very hot
girls. I open the set with the lipstick personality test and gain rapport. Then
I do soul-gazing/mind-reading on one of the girls and kiss her. Afterwords, I do
a rune-cast on one of the girls and give her the answer to one of her
intimate/private questions that she writes on a piece of paper. I follow-up with
a creative phone number close.
I get all the girls to write their phone numbers on a piece of paper with their
names as if to do a psychic cold-reading or a magic trick. Then I fold it into a
small piece of paper...and then....after talking about magic and spiritual
force...I climax, by putting the paper into my pocket, looking at Prince Anu,
and say, "This is how it's done. I'm going to keep this as a souvenir."
FR: Papa Versus Mexican Bone Heads
At the Saddle Club on Sunset Blvd, Devilhimself and I find the hottest 2-set in
the club, however, they are talking to some buff young Mexican bone heads that
think they are pimps. I talk to the girls and do the lipstick personality test
while Devilhimself occupies the Mexicans. They are talking shit about Mexico and
getting into fights, but Devilhimself is so friendly he is scaring the Mexicans.
The Mexicans are telling Devilhimself to stop talking to them cuz they are
trying to talk to the girls; however, Devilhimself (the good wing that he is)
continues to talk to the 2 lame-asses while I maneuver around the set to
position myself next to a hot HB9. I then grab her hands and do some soul-gazing
kino cold-reading routine and then start making out with her.
I turn around and notice that the 2 Mexican AFCs are out of the set. I'm
thinking to myself, "This kicks ass. Devilhimself was about to occupy them and
they must have saw me make out with this hottie and decided to give up." This
was my favorite set of the week solely because we were able to blow these wanna-
be macho Mexican AFCs out of the set while I end up making out with my hottie.
All of my closes are done in between 5 - 15 minutes. I build attraction quickly
once in isolation with my target...then I escalate kino....bring the girl
in....and start making out with her. When you are horny, this whole process is my frame of thinking...I've entertained the girl with my attention for
5-15 minutes...she has to hookup with me...I've earned it and she knows it.


Ross' comments to my previous post were very good and well meaning. However, he
seems to misunderstand what I mean by LTR. Ross seems to think that it is
something overly-romantic and needy. An LTR to me is anything longer than a one-
night stand, and I am screening women and giving them the possibility of having
something a little bit longer than just the one-off sex-fling... only if they
are the kind of people I want. Of course, I have to screen her for that too,
because (as Ross is 100% correct in saying) they MAY bring all their pre-
conceived ideas to the table on what anything longer than one-night stand means,
which is why I need to set the frame properly. The reason why I do this is
because I am tired of having to seduce multiple women all the time, and I'd
rather keep a few good ones.

I don't doubt Ross that there are many women who want sex with no strings
attached (he he he!), but in my opinion the majority of women want to keep a guy
a bit longer than that. Strangely or not so strangely, I want that same thing
too. Hell, I wanted that no-strings sex up until a point... and then it got
boring, and plus I never had anyone to do anything more meaningful with, or be
there to take care of me... because that's how I screened the whole thing. It
was just wild sex ONLY. I ended up attracting women who wanted sex only, just
like me, and nothing else because THAT'S how I framed it!  You get what you set
up all right! On this point I can't argue with Ross at all.

Also, I did not consider that a woman would be that messed up that her problems
are the only things she has to share with someone she trusts. I avoid them
anyway, but I said what I said to make a point.

As for walking away when a woman is not behaving, as I would like. I don't walk
away to tease her with the idea of me not being around. The reason why I walk,
and the point at which I walk, is highly defined by the amount of resistance I
am getting from the particular woman at the time. This is usually exacerbated if
she is found to be deceiving me about something she said earlier.
The reason why I do walk is simply because she is not everything I thought she
would be... and since I am not going to chase down a woman who is not responding
as I like, and as I have told her already, I will find another woman. There is
no bitterness or anger in this... I am searching for women who I can hang with,
and if it's not her, then it will be someone else more suitable. I assume that
this is what Ross refers to as the most alpha of attributes... being willing to
walk if she can't rise to the challenge of being in that special place with you.
If she wants to accept the challenge of being with me... then fine, but the keys
of any relationship are in my hands, and I can give them out at will. Some
women, however, will not be able to let up on the idea of missing out on a
relationship and seeing me talk to another woman, so they will modify their
behavior to my liking. However, this is not true of all women, because some are
doing the same thing I am doing and leaving if they don't get what they want
either. That is her prerogative, after all. I don't see the need to supplicate
and try to get a cold woman started through her unique responses, when in fact,
after I have screened her, she may have none to begin with. I don't have time
for that kind of long-term therapy, which may be what she is trying to reframe
for herself anyway.

MB's comments were good, too. I agree that women do have an idea of what men
want in their head, but unless we make it clear to them what we want, they will
get the wrong idea. This actually plays a big part in my PU, and in screening in
Other than that, good comments by Ross. I suppose I do over generalize to a
degree, and he's right in saying that some of my beliefs were useless. I tend to
speak my mind a lot, and because I'm not selling a course, I'm free to do it.
What I am doing may not work for everyone either, so the reader can decide for
himself. At the end of the day, the individual will have to find their own way
and own understanding. Nobody really cares about our own satisfaction other than
ourselves! That point in itself transcends seduction to bigger, more universal


Dave Riker:
(Comments from private email about the question of age)
I think the important things to do are ....

Don¹t try to have a frame of anything long term. Stay "the fling".

Also, make it a challenge frame for her "you are interesting, cute, but I
usually go for older women because they tend to have/do blah blah blah ..."...

Also, you may wish to quote women her age, or even better in a positive way,
site examples of you being involved with women her age. "Well, even though most
women your age may be blah blah blah, I give each person a chance, I know that
every individual is unique. Like I was seeing this girl a few weeks ago who was
21, and blah blah ...."

I think it's best to do those things all in a very playful manner, to set the
frame correctly.  I tend to think that some people advocate being a bit TOO
strong with this.


The following is an excerpt from a chat session I had with some guys.

This helps to create a frame in her mind to allow for: Short terms romances or

Before we get started, setting the frame that I will NOT be around for a long

Setting the man up as The Hero of sorts, which allows her to do things she would
not normally do.

This is almost definitely the type of thing more appropriate for the coffee shop
scene or for the phone, not a club.

One thing I have done is found a way to frame different types of men in a
woman's mind.  This helps to set yourself up as the romantic hero and also
provides a way for her to understand that this is NOT the long-term thing and
does it in a way that SHE gets it and is ok with it.

The way I do that is to draw an analogy between men and books. Men are like
books.  I talk about how me and a friend (female) were discussing different
types of people ...  different types of men ... and how she was saying that for
her ... it's almost like she has these categories of men that she has for
herself ...  and it's kinda funny how in some ways, it's almost like different
types of books.

What her and I were talking about was .. that some men are like, well, like
encyclopedias. They are always there ... always where you can see them or know
where they are... They are the standard way of looking up information.  You know
they will never probably be off the shelf for long.  No one really ever borrows
them, they are just there, and you'll  BE SECURE in the fact that it's up there
for you when you need it (motion away).  Then other men are like ... well....
like magazines.  Fun, fluff, they are like buddies. No real
content.  Magazines are like fun, fluff stuff .. now I mean magazines like
"People" and stuff,  they are always around, show up regularly, you check them
out when you want a light-hearted diversion from the everyday world.  And then,
there are other men ... and THIS type of man .. is more like ...I guess ....
this man is like a Romance Novel.  You know the ones?   Those books that .......
on some level, you enjoy this, you really like to allow yourself to enter this
fantasy ....  to have this experience.

Maybe your friend has loaned this book to you ... and you know... it's the sort
of thing where you almost hide it's an experience where YOU WANT TO
HAVE THIS... but it's a special thing, a part of your life, a special part ...
that addresses a certain part of you ... a part that YOU are comfortable with,
but maybe a part which you do not show to everyone...and you only decide ...

Now with me ... I think that is important ... and what else is interesting is
that many times women will loan these books out .. so when you get that book,
you see that maybe the pages are bent, that other people have enjoyed this ...
but in many ways, that MAKES THIS MORE APPEALING because you know that ....
other women have seen what's inside and they love it.
And the thing with a romance novel is, it's an escape.  It's something where you
know that this will only be around for a while, and that's ok.   You know that
there will be a time for you to really get into this ... and really let this get
into you ... and then you will let it go...and that in many ways allows you to
open up even more... enjoy this even more..... because you know you won't have
to sustain this ..  and that allows you to take yourself to the limits of what
you can experience and do.

Now....  many woman are not in the place where they can let that happen ...and
they are not comfortable enough with appreciating these different men... but I
think the complete woman is one that embraces all of these.  And knows what to
expect from each ...and  what to expect from herself, if and when she has the
chance ... to make something happen, you know?

Anyone like ... get that?

Se how that worked?


Mark B.:
>>Swinggcat: Almost, as soon as I start talking to a chick, I begin qualifying
her. For example, I might say to them: you seem like you might be adventurous,
are you? If they say yes (which they often times do, and if they don't, then I
am not interested in them anyways), then I say: "Good because if you weren't I
was going to walk away because I am only friends with adventurous people...And
even though you might be adventurous, I don't know if this relationship is going
to work out because I am not sure you can handle me."
MB: OK,great. What do you do then once they have let it be known to you that
they are indeed passionate, sexual, spontaneous, adventurous and otherwise and
have qualified in all your respects?  How do you follow up on that and make it
known you want to see them again? How do you get her one on one or to come out
with you? By the way, I like this approach and can personally verify that it
works as you describe.
>>Swinggcat:  Not only does qualifying and challenging work, it dispels any
player vibe they had about me because I am making myself vulnerable. In other
words, I am telling the chick that I am a sucker for adventurous, spontaneous bi
girls—I am telling them how to seduce me. But here's the catch: as soon as she
does not play by my rules, I close up. So, I am a vulnerable guy as long as she
is playing by my rules. As soon as she isn't, I become cold and aloof. Or even
worse, I next her.
MB: I believe it also works because a woman needs to know what she needs to do
to make you happy and she can feel free that if she meets your standards and
criteria you will accept her. It also gives off the impression that you value
yourself and your time which women find very appealing. You are not a beggar
that takes everything and anything and ends up with nothing.
I also like how you can walk away from a woman if she does not meet your
criteria but you give her the opportunity to redeem herself. Very powerful
stuff. You seem like the type of PUA that will address my question above.
>> Swinggcat:  Almost, as soon as I start talking to a chick, I begin qualifying
MB: I have never really consciously done this while first meeting her as I have
never been able to figure out how to work this into an initial conversation with
a woman. I do it while out with her but I see how letting her know up front what
you value and let her know the consequences if she does not meet your conditions
works extremely well. Qualifying well is what some of the best top sales people
do - they state their standards and by doing so not only discover what their
prospect is like but also motivate him or her to fit their profile as few like
to think they do not fit somewhere.
>>Swinggcat: For example, I might say to them: you seem like you might be
adventurous, are you? If they say yes (which they often times do, and if they
don't, then I am not interested in them anyways)
MB: Looking back, my second long term relationship of 3.5 years began this way
when I told my then girlfriend to be that I thought she was "very passionate,
spiritual, deep and highly intelligent" and she ran through hoops to prove me
>> Swinggcat: Are you spontaneous? Good, then we can hang out. But I don't know
how spontaneous you are yet, so I can't take you to any of my cool places yet.
MB: I like how you can let them know the consequences of not meeting your
standards. I have never really been sure how to do that without turning them
off. Now I have a good basis for giving them an option - shit or get off the pot
but it's their choice.
>>  Swinggcat: The reason I "can" is that I have already gotten them to commit
to being adventurous and spontaneous, so, through the principle of commitment
and consistency, they have to be consistent with what they have committed to. If
they act prudish, then they will come across as if they are lying about being
adventurous and spontaneous).
MB: I have called women on their behaviour only to have them either completely
do a turn around and say they never said what they did or have them feel
sheepish and make due on their word. In my experience, when I tell women that I
thought they were at some higher level than they now seem to be, they seek to
elevate themselves back to that same level and reinstate themselves by appeasing
me sexually or otherwise.
>>Swinggcat: But here's the catch: as soon as she does not play by my rules, I
close up. So, I am a vulnerable guy as long as she is playing by my rules. As
soon as she isn't, I become cold and aloof. Or even worse, I next her.
MB: This is great. I have done this as well - no further response only to have
them turn around and come back running after me.
>>Swinggcat: In other words, when she meets my qualifications I pull her in. And
then I push her away with higher qualifications.
MB: And elevate her to the highest level of performance where you get everything
that you want from her.
>>Swinggcat: EVing (Eliciting Values): A couple years ago I use to do that a
lot. But now I know that this is really just a sophisticated form of
supplication. I mean it is coming from the wrong frame: you are giving her the
opportunity to screen you.
MB:  Yes, so true. In the past two weeks I had two women virtually walk away
from me after I asked them what they wanted from a man. Since women tend to hold
onto some ideal image of the ultimate male, having her imagine him only makes
her realize you are not that guy no matter how rich or attractive you may be. As
well, EVing also implies "tell me what you want and I will give it to you" which
comes off as highly AFC and akin to a doormat.
>>Swinggcat: When they shit test me, I turn it around by accusing them of
subscribing to values or having attributes that are undesirable. Then I
challenge them to refute my accusation. This works fucking great.
MB:  Right on. When women shit test me, I shit test them right back and
challenge their behaviour. If they get angry at me for an issue I challenge
their behaviour and not the issue they are blabbing about. Works great.

Check out this link


Eric H.:
> Swinggcat: How the Game is Really Played: SWINGGCAT on Qualifying &
Eric H.:  Isn't this mostly the attitudes from "How to Be the Jerk Women Love"?
Not dissing the content by any means as you have some good points and getting
rid of the EV'ing helps a TON (and I think that you filled in some of the
"blanks" that book left open) however I think a lot of what you described was
HTBTJWL-ish as a theme. You might try checking that out to see if I'm
understanding your stuff correctly, as you have written it. Either way it's good
work and I'll be testing some of it out very soon..


Dreamweaver (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
Alright, I thought I'd go into some more detail on how the night actually went.
First I had friends who were over for my birthday--- all HB 8's and up pretend
to be my hoes. This REALLY gave me some credibility. What I'm trying to figure
out is how I can do this again when it is NOT my birthday, and I don't have
automatic hoes.
I'm thinking a routine like this: Walk up to girls I don't know.
Dreamweaver: How would you like to be my hoes for awhile? I'll treat you real
good (big smile).
If they play along with it the next groups are easy, as I'll go into exactly
what I did when I was out. Snowballing from your original group is a fucking
The other idea I can think of is asking the girls to play along with your
gimmick. Let them know it's just for fun and you want to see how people react.
The first routine I used involved going up to guys and asking them how much they
would pay for my hoe on my right arm, and then compare that with the one on my
left arm.
PimpDaddyDreamWeaver: How much you think you gonna pay for ma girls?
He says some price --- keep in mind he's in a group set with girls there. If any
girl says anything I tell her "Shut the fuck up. Who was I fucking talking to?
That's right. Wait your Goddamn turn." Pounding my cane to the floor. (Yes you
NEED a pimp cane. It is a NECESSITY. More than the outfit, and nearly as much as
the attitude.)
No matter what price he says you say "Not nearly enough. Goddamn." I usually
followed that night with. "Oh well, it's ma fuckin' burthday, let the hoes
decide. If they wanna fuck you, ma man, it's free game."
Then I'd go into my butt slapping cane routine. I take my cane and say "Time to
test out the goods." I would then slap girls on their behinds. Yes, girls I
don't know. Especially the hottest girls in the club or the party. Usually I'd
say "Naw, you don't got what it takes. What you got, girl?"
If she tells me she doesn't want to be my hoe, or shows any disrespect - there
is a ZERO!!!!! tolerance policy. You must show the bitch. "You don't have a
choice girl. If I like the goods, I take the goods."
Then I challenge them, "Entertain me." I make them entertain me. I tell them
it's my birthday, and that I'm the youngest fucking white pimp around. I should
be in the Guinness Book of World Records.
Then I talk about either American Pimp, or Pimpin Aint Easy (artsy doc as
opposed to main stream American Pimp). Either way I talk about how they filmed
me for it but I told them I don't want my hoes exposed. How I fight for them at
pimp conventions. And I offer my girls only the best. But I always get what I
want. At this point you MUST transition to testing her to be one of your hoes.
You personally test all your girls.
This means you get to kiss her and whatever else she'll do in the frame you set
her in. Remember you are the one in power. I don't know any girls that stepped
outta line. I seriously was so into the roll I would have slapped them with the
cane. One girl said, "What if I run away?" I told her. "Ah'd do this," I flipped
my cane upside down so the hook was on top and grabbed her by the leg and I
seriously tripped her. She was so taken aback by that she didn't know what to
do. "No one runs from this pimp daddy."
Whether the girls actually believed me or not didn't matter because they all
played into it. The last opener I would use was just slamming my cane into the
middle of a circle and waiting for a girl to ask about it. I'd take my time,
then say "Did I ask you to speak. I'm a pimp." If they laugh then you again go
hard on them. It's about the money not the women. You can't help getting laid.
The really bad side affect of this is...... I want to go pimping again, because
once you go pimp you NEVER want to go back.
My favorite routine of the night. Asking girls to rate my hoes. Girls love
stabbing at other girls. But they best not make fun of ma hoes!
If you want to understand, find the documentary Pimp's up Hoes Down. You can
watch pimps smooth talking in action. It will you show you how they work. They
play off the father figure role in girls lives(very powerful).


Dreamweaver converted me into dis pimpology shit, you know what 'm sayin' ? Two
mo' weeks of dis shit and I be a certifayable pimp. No mo' jobs.... no mo'
edumacation...just makin' dough thru mah ho's. You know what dey say....Doctors
need nurses, priests need nuns, an' ho's need PIMPS. Cuz if a ho don't get no
instruction, she's gonna be headin' fo self destruction...

"Bitch jumped in the car asked me where we goin'? I'm Qdini the pimp, bitch, you
goin' hoin"


Dwacon (Purveyor of Howard Stern's Love Doll (reposted
from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author) :
The week before last, a business vendor come in to meet with my company.  His
associate turned out to be this cute HB... kind of a cross between Jennifer
Aniston and Calista "Ally McBeal" Flockhart.  A bit skinny for my taste... but
she has a little bit of rump so I thought I'd have some fun.

Most of the guys in the office were tripping over their own feet looking at her,
but I just played like I couldn't care less that she was in the room.  So, of
course... she is paying me all of this attention.  I bring her back to my office
to go over figures (pun intended), during which she breaks the business talk
with fluff... so I respond with some very sexually charged C&F:
She notices a golf magazine on my desk and asks if I play.  I tell her that I
just bought a set of clubs with the "extra rigid shaft" and how "I feel such
intense pleasure when my balls drop deep... deep into the hole."

She sees pictures on my desk (myself with two different girls) and I tell her
that they are part of my harem, adding that "when the lovin' is that good, a
woman doesn't mind sharing..."

She asks where my favorite travel destination is.  I tell her I love Scandinavia
because in that culture, when a woman brings you home and you make her come all
night long, her parents make breakfast for you the next morning.  So she gets
all excited but I play disinterested/C&F.  But when we shake hands I hold her
hand a little too long and look deep into her eyes and lick my lips a lot.  Her
associate catches on and drags her out of there... but she sends me an e-mail
that afternoon.  I wait until the next day, then call her to go over her Excel
numbers... and to also get her home number.

The next day she calls again and I keep it all business, then nonchalantly
mention I will be having lunch and invite her.  She shows up 20 minutes early.

I let her drive and I notice the fact that her car is a manual.  I tell her that
I appreciate a woman who knows how to handle a stick.

She starts grilling me with all these questions about myself... and I tell her
to slow her roll... "If you want that knowledge... it will COME... after we have
been with each other for a while."  She says she is very fast... so I tell her I
will help her relax with my ancient Indian relaxation technique... rubbing her
ear lobe and pulling her hair back firmly... which (of course) only gets her all
hot and flustered.

When we get out of the car she says something like, "My boyfriend... bla, bla,
bla..." which I totally ignore, responding with "You'll like this restaurant."

We talk nothing but sex the entire lunch... but all in NLP and C&F... like about
how she feels such powerful pleasure when the meat glides into her mouth... etc.

She asks, "What are you doing this weekend" -- I already had plans... so I told
her that I would call and she can "have me for dinner" next week.  We get back
to my office and my first thought is to close the door and take her on my
sofa... but I think if she is a screamer (or if the co-workers get nosy) that
could turn out badly.

As I mentioned, co-workers went GA GA GOO GOO when they saw her on the first
visit and from that day it has been a steady stream of childish comments.

As expected, when they found out I had gone out with her they started acting all
jealous.  My boss was saying crap like, "Don't expect a signature on your next
pay check" and one of the other guys kept murmuring, "dickhead."  The positive
note -- the Vice President of our company came down and saw her... and when he
heard the gossip said, "good for you!"

Bunch of alpha hotels...     so I will keep future intercourse, er... I mean...
interactions with her outside of the office (but inside of her orifice).

I spoke to her on the phone today and she started throwing the "boyfriend" thing
at me:
Me: How was your weekend?
(her dad was in town helping paint her place)
Her: It is almost done.
Me: Good, now you can cook me a fabulous dinner.
Her: I don't think my boyfriend would appreciate that.
Me: (silence)
Her: I don't even cook for him
Me: So, you're such a bad cook you'll poison us?
Her: (laughs)
Me: Just make me some toast.
Her: I don't think my boyfriend would appreciate that.
Me: A woman like you has her secret life.
Her: (laughing) What do you mean by that?
Me: Like the old woman in the movie "Titanic," she had that secret life not even
her granddaughter knew about.
Her: (laughs)
Me: A woman like you has needs that must be met... and knows to not let those
opportunities pass.
Her: You seem to have all the answers.
Me: Are you going to be the 90 year old woman who regrets letting a good thing
pass, or are you going to have that smile that has your grandkids
wondering...(at this point her call waiting kicks in and she asks me to hold --
I tell her I'll talk to her later)
To be corntinued...

Last Thursday I attended a formal function at the Korean embassy.  I dressed the
part... upscale all the way.

When I entered, saw a few sets of HB's -- traveling in pairs... but their radar
scopes were on.  Each time, one would see me approaching, nudge the other, and
they would both turn and exit... or play Helen Keller.  They fawned all over the
country club dudes...

Effin snobs...

Being the tenacious seducer that I am... I went to one of the rooms where Korean
art was on display and saw a 7 and a 4 admiring the art.  Oh well, why not... so
I enter and make an observation about the art... then start fluff talking them.
They tolerated about 15 seconds of conversation before they made a lame excuse
to jet.

Effin snobs...

I went up to the second level where food was being served and having loaded a
plate with the great Korean food they had at the buffet, I went to the dining
area... and noticed that the only available chairs had coats draped over them.
I was told, "Sorry... taken" but noticed that when one of the HBs came in and
asked, "Are these seats taken?" -- then the coats were removed, "No, no one is
sitting here."

Effin snobs...

So anyway... I find another room that everyone assumed was locked... but it is
being used as a dressing room by the young women who were to be performing
traditional dance.  I gave them a little charming and they smiled and offered me
a table... so now I'm sitting and dining with these cute Korean dancers and I
have them all to myself... UNTIL this old dude with this Theodore Roosevelt
personality barges in and starts telling these long boring stories about his
adventures in Korea... even the dancer girls are yawning.

So, after dinner we adjourn to the ballroom where this Korean baritone sings
opera in Korean and Italian... and it seems apparent no opportunities for
sarging here.  I figured I would have more fun the following night at the French
embassy... a party sponsored by Martel Cognac (with a free open bar).

Little did I know...

So, Friday arrives and I go to a movie premiere at the French Embassy.  I had
previously arranged to provide the group with some Dwacon-label shirts... which
I thought would be a great gimmick but the girls working the welcome desk
insisted on doing the distribution... and they would up taking home most of what
I brought... and were too busy to even submit to a little sarging.

Anyway... it was a peacocking night:
Nino Cerruti suit
DKNY shirt
Giorgio Brutini tie
Gucci shoes
Okay, maybe I should have settled on one designer... but anyway, I go into the
reception area to mingle and it is PACKED with HB's... hommina, hommina,

The problem: the DJ is playing music at 120 decibels... and the room is small
with marble walls, nothing to absorb the music.  It is like a Soviet torture
chamber.  My ears are still ringing...

I see the beautiful targets and I walk in like the alpha male» that I am: back
straight... chest out... head tilted back... confident smile... moving like a
cat -- gracefully -- almost in slow motion -- seductively.

Every eye was on me... heads turning... so I figured I'd start by getting a
drink... but it is so loud I have to scream at the top of my lungs at the
bartender and have a hard time understanding her.  This is just not conducive to
conversation... and I think screaming out a sarge is counterproductive.

A guy walks over (why izzit always some fruity fella) and asks me a question but
I can't hear.  He gets close and screams loud enough so I can understand, "Do
you have your own line of clothing or something?"  I just shake my head and walk

I tell the host that the music is too loud (can't get the DJ's attention) but he
just says, "Hey, it's a party..."  I tell him that it is still a party if people
leave with their ear drums intact... but he is too hopped up on the free Martel
Cognac to care...

A few people go into the theatre area to escape the noise and I follow.  I scope
the room out and it seems most of the hotties are still out there being
wallflowers.  Inside is mostly couples.

I notice this one 30-something woman talking about having graduated film school
and hoping to meet someone important.  She is off my radar scope, but just for
grins I sit next to her and give her my card.  I tell her about my company and
my film that is in distribution.

She starts stroking my leg and making comments like, "Seeing my work on screen
is better than having sex."  Very easy number close... but I really wanted one
of those hoochie mamitas in the other room... but the music continued to blast
ridiculously loud until the lights dimmed and the film started.

After the closing credits, it was a mad mob to the coat check... a fun but
fruitless evening...


Maximillian Hell:
This, Book of Fabulous Questions looks like it might be a good aid to EVing.


aa aa:
For a long time, I was using the direct approach a la Mark B. and RJ's
"absolutely stunning." Essentially, this was playing the statistics, quantity
over quality. No surprise that I got a lot of "I have a boyfriend" and flakes
from those who did give me their number. I decided to take a step back and re-
evaluate what I was doing right and wrong. I decided to try the indirect
approach.  However, I don't mean the indirect approach that I was doing when I
was an AFC. I mean the type of indirect approach that Mystery talks about (i.e.,
the Elvis script, approach the group and make the target wonder if she's being
hit on or not). Where my direct approaches would cut straight to the point and
last 3-5 minutes, I realized where I was failing was because I did not take
enough time to talk and build RAPPORT (fundamental, I know, but I was missing
this point). Like a newbie, I was fighting the fear just to approach and the
best way to overcome the fear was to dive in head first with guns drawn and go
straight for the number. Good for the newbie as Mystery explains it with his
NEWBIE MISSION: approach 50 people and gain the experience, eventually you
become numb to all fear and rejection, the sting is gone. In any case, my sarges
now can take anywhere from 20-30 minutes chatting and shooting the shit. And
this has made all the difference. I see this as a natural progression in my PU
progress. I could not have reached this level of comfort chatting with a target
for this long had I not overcome the fear by simply approaching countless times,
becoming unphased by all rejection. I feel smooth as we talk. I am prepared to
address any number of typical chick defenses (e.g., "I have a boyfriend"). I
have proven scripts and witty responses. Getting into state is no longer an
issue because I am on auto-pilot with my scripts because I have said them many
times already. Now, the ability to stay there and talk is the next level for me.
I realize that going straight for the kill is the inexperienced way and the PU-
artists take their time, they are in no hurry, they are relaxed and comfortable,
it seems effortless, and they are always having fun. This has been enlightening
for me. I still do the direct approach for street PUs because I have found that,
under these circumstances, I need to get straight to point before they lose
interest and walk away. My point is that I needed to slow down and take my time
whenever possible. Finesse and Rapport.
With the indirect approach I am sitting on the train and striking up a
conversation with the person next to me, or sitting at lunch, or shopping in a
store, any places that allow me the opportunity to talk for an extended amount
of time rather than a street PU where they are enroute somewhere. Clubs, bars,
and coffee shops would suffice in this case as we know on this list. I will open
up with a question about the book she's reading (i.e., "Catcher and the Rye?",
"Are you studying for a class?"-- lame, I know, but hear me out). Certainly a
sharp contrast from the direct approach where I often do a variation on RJ's
"absolutely stunning." If I have nothing to work with, my best indirect approach
has been: "Hi, I'm not trying to pick you up. You look alot like a girl I met a
couple of weeks ago and I totally lost your number." I like this for several
reasons. First, I make it clear that I'm not hitting on her. Second, I give the
impression that I met a girl, she gave me her number and I lost it. This builds
an intrigue about my lifestyle. In her mind, I meet girls and get their numbers,
impressive. Afterwhich I proceed to eliciting values, talking about her, fluff
talk, where she works, does she like her work. General, I know, but an essential
part that I was not doing with my direct approaches. It was Hi, I think you're
stunning, give me your number. No point do I convey personality or take the time
to make them feel like I genuinely want to get to know them. With the direct
approach, I may have had a ratio of 1-out-of-7 would give me either a number or
email (an unscientific survey of course). And apparently with the direct
approach, every woman seems to have a boyfriend (typical chick defense). Of
course, I found that they are always flattered and impressed with my confidence
with the direct approach. I have just started testing this indirect approach so
I do not have large figures to calculate results from. I just know that the
first 4 women I spoke to in this way, expressed interest in continuing our
conversation and gave me a number or email. One had a boyfriend and was totally
fine meeting for lunch again. The other 3, at no point did I ask if they had a
boyfriend and at no point did they mention a boyfriend. 4-out-of-4 in my first
attempts was enough to make me evaluate what I was doing better as opposed to
hit-or-miss odds with what I was currently doing. It's a general difference in
responses that I'm noticing. It's an instant-date as we talk for 20-30 minutes
on that spot. They feel more connected with me, they feel like they know me a
little bit better, they feel more comfortable with me having talked to me for so
long, reactions I never got with a 3-5 minute direct approach where I conveyed
nothing about my personality except my confidence to approach her. I typically
left the direct approach without a sense of like they really knew me well enough
to want to see me again. The point may be that it's not the approach I took
(direct or indirect), it's the fact the I was beginning to talk on a deeper
level with them, make a better connection with conversation.
Incidentally, I posted a field-report last time about framing a BF Destroyer in
a way where she does not have to choose between me over the boyfriend, giving
her an excuse to get to know me at the same time. In this line of thought, my
best BF Destroyer has been:
Her: I have a boyfriend
Me: How many boyfriends do you have?
Her: Just one.
Me: Just one? I think you should at least have 2.
Her: (laughs)

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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