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Give me your phone number and we’ll order pizza
2/11/03 4:17:21 PM Eastern Standard Time


Cliff's List Website

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
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as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.


Papa (from an email exchange between Clifford and Papa):
Kiss Closes
Clifford: What do you look for before you move in? What tells you yes and what
tells you no?
Papa: When I am in the state of "I don't care about anything else around me" and
I'm just having lots of fun, I'll just look for any opportunity to kiss a
girl...whether on the dance floor, isolation with her for a few minutes at the
bar, or if I want the connection to really be there first...I'll look for IOIs
(DDBL, kino from her, etc.)'s intuition.
I'll move in and kiss the girl any time I am in any of these situations as long
as I feel there is rapport between us (and a decent level of attraction)...and
do it in a very confident and congruent masculine way. If dancing with a hottie
that's really enjoying me, I'll use a swing dancing move and twirl her
around...and then when I stop...I'll pull her hands down and kiss her. When I'm
talking to a girl after giving her a psychic reading or after lots of kino, I'll
pull her hands close to mine, place them into a clasped hand position, clasp my
hands around hers, gaze into her eyes, think about how sexual this is so she
sees the lust in my eyes, and kiss her.
I often feel like she is rewarding me for my time with a kiss too...because I've
often showed her something new, exciting, and given her something special to
think about...through either a cold-reading, dancing, exciting conversation, or
simply as a result that I have social proof (since I'm the man of the club or
the party host) and she's hanging out with if she's going to suck on my
social proof and adventurous lifestyle persona...she's going to give me a kiss.
This is definitely an intense experience for me if you do this right and she
won't know what to do because everything is happening so quickly. You know you
can do it because she will not want to lose rapport with you...she wants to see
what will happen next. You are like her romance novel...unless you are simply at
her house or your place...watching a movie...and you decide it's time to
makeout...then you are not her romance're just ready to hookup and
stop watching that silly movie (your excuse to hookup and she knows it).
My favorite kiss close technique is when I have the girl with her hands clasped
and pull close to me...with my hands clasped on top of hers...and I take one
hand and point to one cheek (and then she kisses it)...then I point to the other
cheek (and then she kisses that)...and then I move in and kiss her mouth
(sometimes I'll point to my mouth and say 'now give me a big children's kiss').
On the other hand, I like just kissing the girl spontaneously after building up
deep rapport and attraction from dancing with her, talking with her, and just
coming off like an alpha male».
I believe a girl will kiss any guy that comes across highly confident, outgoing,
sexual, and acts like kissing is just part of the normal conversation. People
often treat kissing like an usual thing. In Australia, Spain, Brazil, and other
countries outside of America, kissing is often a natural process. It should be
treated this way everywhere.
Clifford:  Have you had many refusals, pull backs, or other negative responses?
Papa:  Like everyone else in the Game, I've had refusals and pull backs from my
kiss. That's because only YOU can calibrate when, how to deliver the kiss close,
and after how much rapport you can successfully maneuver a kiss. When I first
got in the Game, I had bad results because I wouldn't come across very confident
in my kissing...I'd ask the girl if she wanted to kiss me and this works only
after developing super high levels of rapport...or else you'll get a NO. So I
just give it to them on my command and just move in. I often move in for the
kiss when my face is relatively close to the girl's face...because it's while
dancing, after heavy kino, or talking close to her at a nightclub so that she
can hear what I'm saying...and when you do this, you maximize your success of
getting the kiss...because there is simply less time for her to react in any
negative way...and once you are kissing's too late for her to change
her mind because now the both of you have to act somewhat congruent for the rest
of the night. This is why you must kiss the girl if you want to move to a one
night stand.
I can get turned down now and then...especially when I'm experimenting with
funny and playful kiss closes that I haven't used before...however, when I'm in
close proximity to them and I use the kiss close that I describe below...there
is no time for the girl to refuse so you don't get refused...and after the
kiss...the girl has to make an excuse for it to be a positive thing because all
girls wants kisses to seem cool/special.
Clifford:  What can you put in writing that is really an explanation of instinct
and experience in this situations?
Papa: Now, people have told me that kissing the girl is good, but putting off
kissing towards later can pay dividends. This is true in some situations because
girls want what they can't have. However, I am going to kiss girls whenever the
opportunity arises on my first encounter. If you treat the kiss in your first
encounter as just the time to phase shift and build deeper rapport before you
start your one night stand or get her phone number (if you feel like it's not
happening tonight), then you are set. Oftentimes, guys think that the kiss seals
the deal and then they push for the one night stand and lose rapport. In my
opinion, the kiss is just the time in the Game where you need to focus on
building deep rapport so that the girl will think how comfortable, secure, and
safe she is around you...and she won't think about the kiss as just the kiss she
gave to the random guy while she was drunk (however, this is not an issue at all
if you kiss her during the day). She'll only be able to justify the kiss as
proof of her attraction if you kiss her during the day. Girls have told my
friends that they go out and kiss different guys every weekend they go out so a
kiss isn't very special to them. That's true for many attractive girls...which
makes the Game very fun to me...and makes making-out with these girls easy. It's
also these girls that often go out with the intention of a one-night-stand. I've
heard that if you find these girls trying to kiss you and you refuse, then you
may increase you chances of one-night stands; however, I haven't field-tested
this. I'll let other people field test this and tell me what they think of this.
I enjoy making-out with girls too much to turn down opportunities that I firmly
believe will lead to a one-night stand and deeper rapport.
Clifford: I have a theory that I haven't had the nerve yet to put into practice.
My thinking is that most women will just kiss you back if you move in and kiss
them in a confident, congruent masculine way. I can't see how you could
establish enough rapport or attraction to get tacit permission to kiss women in
the 5-15 minutes you usually take before you move in. I also recall the thread
about "kiss openers" on Mystery's Lounge - clearly these women were not in
position to make a conscious decision to make out with someone this quickly.
Papa:  Yes. A woman will kiss ANY man that comes that comes up to her and sucks
her into his own compelling reality. So if you move in for a kiss after
demonstrating that you are outgoing and confident...WHAMMO. In my opinion, the
kisses that I've been getting in the 5-15 minutes that I take before I move in
all involve a degree of rapport and attraction because when I don't receive any
indications of interest, I'll won't kiss her until the girl is responsive. Your
theory that oftentimes girls are not in a position to consciously decide to
initiate the kiss is oftentimes true when you kiss her.  However...once you
start kissing the girl...the girl will notice that it's too late...she's already
kissed you...and she'll then have to gauge how much attraction and rapport you
have. So it's at that point, that you going to have to focus less on building up
the attraction to kissing her quickly, and more on working on gaining deep that she'll decide she either wants to see you again later or fuck
you that night.


Papa (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
I didn't have time to meet up with these girls later to hookup even though I got
their numbers...I had more fun chillin with my crew. Maybe next time I'm in
town. What's allowed me to make-out so quickly is that I know that I come across
so amusing, exciting, and attractive to the girls I'm working that they owe it
to themselves (and to me) to make out with me if I've entertained them for 5-10
minutes. This is the frame from which I work because I honestly believe that I'm
the most exciting guy that these girls will meet. The soul-gazing routine is
simply talking about connections between the soul while applying very sexual
kino. I place the girls hands into a clasped position...then I wrap my hands
around hers...and pull her closer and closer to me while talking about
connections between the souls and positive energy.
Here's a few things though to that you can enjoy tonight...[from Slippery]
One of my favorite negs from the seminar: "I can't believe you said that...until
you said that I thought there was really something that could happen between had to go and screw it up."
Second, if a girl asks how old you are, reply: "Old if you take me won't go to jail."
Third, if a girl asks what you do, respond: "Oh. You mean apart from being
deliciously hot and incredibly sexy!" [pause] "You probably think you don't even
have a chance with me, eh?" [smile]
Finally, if a girl refuses to give you her phone number, try using this...
HER: You can't have it...bla bla bla
YOU: What?!? Do you not give your phone number to the pizza guy when you order a
HER: Sure. Of course I do that.
YOU: Great. Then give me your phone number and we'll order pizza together.


I was asked to speak at and I shared something at David DeAngelo's seminar that
is far more important than just techniques. And this is in my opinion the
"essence" of success with girls and in life. And this is the way of the most
successful people I know. The point I made was that for me this is more about
becoming great and fearless in LIFE. Rather than just in the area of girls. To
be able to bring more to every human interaction I have. More joy, more passion
and compassion, more life, more wealth, health and happiness. In other words, to
become a better person and create success as a result of who I am. To inspire
every person to see more beauty and potential within themselves. To believe in
themselves and to maybe just touch them in a way that transforms their life
forever for the better after they have met me.
I had a homeless man ask me for money on Sunset on Saturday night (right in the
midst of all the night action) . . . I looked at him in the eyes and said "I
travel a lot and meet a lot of people . . . but there is something about you
that tells me you are capable of so much more than asking people for change. You
have so much more potential than that, it's like you are destined for much more
. . . How did you ever get to be here?" This is a pre-thought "script" I thought
out after feeling un-easy about just giving homeless people money. He stopped,
looked at me and went silent for a moment, then he said . . . "Thank you so much
for telling me that. You know ever since I was small, all I was told was that I
would never amount to anything. But you are the first person to believe in me.
Thank you for that. What's your name?" I have done this several times and
learned some amazing life lessons as a result.
I do the same thing with girls/women. I ask them about my ideas and for their
opinion on what they think about guys approaching, what they hate, like, etc. I
test my ideas,write them down and practice until they "become" me. Ultimately
the results only come by being the person you need to be to attract the sorts of
girls you want. If girls treat you badly, or anyone else for that matter,or you
have any problem with them, it's because YOU are the problem. You change and
BINGO ..the problems disappear. I have a response to most daily interactions
with girls and people generally that is different, funny, playful and gets me
remembered. I look at myself as a flame that leaves behind a trail of sparks
that start the fires of passion, love, wealth, health and compassion. I bring
joy where there is sadness, peace where there is war, wealth where there is
poverty (both monetary and personal or spiritual) health where there is sickness
and love where there is hate.
By doing this I don't need no drugs or alcohol, even though I am often asked if
I am on drugs, because I seem so happy. But this was simply a decision to BE all
those things. In the area of girls I was always the "nice" guy. Of course this
does not create passion or attraction, so I decided to become a BAD BOY (within
the above principles of life). I tease, I play, I tell them who I am and what I
want . . . always playfully, NEVER angry if I get a negative response . . . For
example, when I do my Fairy card mind-reading or palm reading and I get asked
about how I learned to "read" cards, people or palms I say . . . " I don't
really know anything about it, I just use this to pick up girls . . . (PAUSE) .
. . . is it working?" This always gets a laugh and is HONEST. Then I add that "I
am very intuitive and can pick up on people's energy . . . (Which I now am and
I am always looking to push the envelope and say things like. . . "Wow, you have
this upward lift on your relationship line . . . have you ever had sex in an
elevator?" (Laughs, NO) "Well would you like to?" Today at lunch I teased the
waitresses . . . "We want the good looking section, please" "Hey, no groping"
(after she touched me). She said she cooked the meals, I said . . . "You did?
OK, that's it I am going to marry you and you can cook for me all the time." She
said she was already married, I said, "That's fine, get a divorce then.You can't
do better than me." And so it goes . . . I have a LOT of fun and my days are
filled with great interactions and opportunities everywhere, without really even
trying too hard anymore.
This has also transferred into my business. I am very, very, very good because I
do all the funny stuff even when talking about tens of thousands of dollars
decisions. People love it. The message in all of this is to make the decision to
become the most committed and best person you can and then stick with your
decision no matter what. And don't expect too much in the short term but know
that LONG term you really can change yourself and the world around you. With
girls and every other area also. That's it for now . . . Hope you all find this


TylerDurden (Tyler's posts are reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of
the author):
You spot a chick you want. Now the most important thing is how you FACE her.
You roll up, and you don't face her UNTIL she is facing YOU. That means, if she
is turned totally away from you, you literally TURN YOUR NECK ENTIRELY BACKWARDS
while you talk, and ONLY turn when she turns.
Then, as she says stuff that she PERCEIVES as you being impressed by, you THEN
turn to face her. This causes her to have the perception that
1) you are not needy/desperate/lame
2) she said something WORTH you staying
Have you ever won some stupid contest for a Cracker-jack prize or some shit, and
went and claimed it??? Even though if you had already owned it, and forgot it at
the store, you never would have gone to even pick it up cause its so LAME.. but
still, since you WON it, you go pick it up??? That's what this is like.
Give her the impression that you're only staying to talk because SHE said
something that interested you to stay. Again, do this by ONLY turning once she
is turning FIRST.
The only exception is you can do little tests, like turning quickly towards her,
to SEE if she'll BITE and turn herself.
Then, after you get that, THEN start mirroring her and all that shit. Mirroring
is FANTASTIC for getting deep rapport.
Finally, when you phase shift, use very sexual body language».
The sequence in my "gear shifting" post was:
-C&F until she tries to get rapport with "what's your name" or some variant
-phase shift
So you turn away and make her TRY to get rapport with this cocky/funny guy, then
you turn towards her normally, THEN when you phase shift you do the sexy body
language» (EC, triangular gazing, sidelong glances, lip licking, hair sifting,
open palms, soft tonality, etc., etc.)
If you have AI (approach invitation), then it is OK to use a more direct body
language», or even the "hi" opener.
On warm approaches, feel free to go into phase shift body language» right away,
if she's comfortable with it.
For non-club PU (my absolute expertise, although my club game is getting kinda
tight non-club is still way better), experiment with PROJECTING VALUE in your
opener. That means that what you do/say projects VALUE to the chick, right off
the opener. Some things of value to chicks are:
-frame-setting (sets challenges right off the opener)
-role playing
Here are some QUICK examples, although I could go on ALL DAY on this.
"Hey, check out that kid on Santa's lap.. wow, remember when x,y,z childhood
"Whoa, that is a NICE aquarium.. look at that.. OMG, we should totally hit up
the bio-chem department, and get shrunk down like BARBIE AND KEN.. then we could
swim around behind that coral right there.. see that.. and totally go on like an
underwater adventure like in the Little Mermaid.. don't get any ideas though,
Ken dolls do not come FULLY EQUIPPED" (this reverses the frame at the end as
well as an added benefit)
(pick up the LAMEST CD in the store, like something totally ridiculous) "OMG..
OMG.. this CD is fucking A-W-E-S-O-M-E..... pause for effect while she is
gauging if you're serious...... hahahhahahahaha" (so you just break out
laughing, but not too obnoxious.. laughter is CONTAGIOUS, so take advantage)
You can use the same formula with CAT FOOD in a grocery store, or WHATEVER..
Humour = stuff that doesn't go together.
"I just saw the most fascinating thing.. In this newspaper article (whatever,
Jamie Lee Curtis story about her fatness or whatever)" (Ricki Lake even
qualifies under this category, although I don't use it myself)
"Damn.. I-AM-SICK of this cafeteria food.. do you know how to cook? no?? ok
we're broken up then, I'm going to find a woman who can cook.. (while she cracks
up, talk to another chick)... OK, so you can't cook.. well, what else do you
have going for you??? are you adventurous?" (transition to Swinggcat style
Again, you're qualifying her right off the OPENER. This is very POWERFUL... more
than stupid "hi, I want to meet you"
"Do girls think that David Bowie is hot?" (better than "hi", because she
actually ENJOYS giving her opinion on stupid shit like this)
Whack her with a magazine... tap her.. as she walks towards you, make funny
faces, and if she returns them then pretend to punch her while you grab her
around her waist and start walking with her "you're cuuuuute.. you'll make a
nice new girlfriend, I think.." (Zan style line).. Follow this with QUALIFYING
"wait a sec though, can you cook?" and you are MOTHERFUCKING IIIIIINNNNNN LIKE
nobody has tighter than this in a clothing store.
Grab a stupid jacket off the rack, and say "whoa, this is SWEET.. I should try
this on NOW.. check this out.." .... then start moving to the mirror, and
hopefully she'll start to come.. then GRAB BACK another jacket, the SAME ONE
that you have. So now you BOTH try on the stupid jacket, and look in the mirror
as you both look THE SAME. Put your arm around her like its for a silly-picture,
and look in the mirror together.
Notice that this is EXTREMELY POWERFUL, because she is looking at the TWO OF YOU
TOGETHER, wearing the SAME STUPID SHIT. It is ROLEPLAYING that you are like
together or something already, like a stupid couple.
Then say "we should STEAL THESE", and watch her reaction, as you either
playfully go along plotting how to do it, or she says NO. If she says "no", then
GRAB HER STUFF, and PRETEND like you're running out the door with it..
She'll tackle you, and then you say, "know what?? I know a better way to make
$$$.. I need a RICH girl.." and start QUALIFYING HER, the same way as the "girl
who cooks" qualifier from the FRAME-SETTING opener from above.
OK, for mid-game, you have to GAUGE how much C&F and various other attractors
she needs, in order for HER to try to get rapport with YOU. KEEP FUCKING WITH
That means, do stuff like:
-lying game
-kiss game
-calling her "bad"
-calling her "Powder Puff girl"
-a billion other Cocky&Playful things
I do ALL of these C&F. The lying game I use to tease her and ask her funny
questions. Kiss game is just PURE COCKY and works AMAZING (read post TD&26 vs.
some lame club chicks). CUBE I make fun of her with, and qualify her.
-make her spin around and ask her if she knows how to DANCE (this on the street)
-make her TEACH YOU HER DANCE MOVES right there on the street
-try on CLOTHES together
-teach her an ESP trick, and use it to FOOL PEOPLE together
-poke her and tickle her
-steal something from her and make her try to wrestle it from you
Now ONLY AFTER you've done this stuff, will she say:
"what's your name?"
"where do you work?"
etc., etc., etc..
What you do is SHIFT GEARS SLOWLY.
You answer with "GUESS" for the first TWO questions or so, and THEN you just ask
ONLY what she asks you.
HER: what's your name
YOU: guess (but now switched OUT of C&F tonality into NORMAL tonality, so its
still SWITCHING gears, but NOT TOO FAST since you're using "guess")
HER: tom
YOU: no
HER: cliff
YOU: no..
HER: whaaaaat????
YOU: TylerDurden.. what's yours?
HER: HBslut
YOU: cool.. I like that.. (compliment is FINE now, since she's interested)
HER: what do you do?
YOU: guess.. (NON-C&F tone.. NORMAL TONE)
HER: hahaha.. ummm ok.. accountant..
YOU: haha.. no I'm definitely not that.. I'm (x-realjob)
Then let her ask you questions, and ask them back, LIKE NORMAL.. NO GAME FROM
G-E-T === R-A-P-P-O-R-T
I MEAN it.. Get DEEP rapport with the chick, so she fucking LOVES you and feels
If you have laid the GROUNDWORK with the COOL opener (like one of the ones I
suggested), and the C&F shit that projects the value that you are COCKY and FUN
and PLAYFUL and CHALLENGING, then she will LOVE and RELISH getting to know you.
***AGAIN, the cocky shit is to get from POINT A (indifferent to you) to POINT B
If you have AI, you CAN use the "hi" and all that bullshit, to great success.
The point is, though, GET RAPPORT. This is KEY. When you do a PURE C&F sarge,
you must either FUCK CLOSE, or accept the FLAKE. This is because she comes out
of state IMMEDIATELY after you leave, since you have NO RAPPORT. VERY FEW CHICKS
will actually meet you for a 'get-together' if you have no rapport, no matter
HOW MUCH C&F you did, and how much she was loving it.
FORMULA = C&F to get ATTRACTION, conversation/genuine to get RAPPORT.
Make her EARN the genuine rapport building conversation by showing you how
PLAYFUL she is.
The SAME conversation that would have been LAME had you not laid down the
site with the explanation, cause I'm too tired to explain this in detail). Look
at her lips and eyes, lips and eyes, lips and eyes.. Tilt your head, lick your
lips, touch her hair, lips and eyes, lips and eyes, lips and eyes, move closer,
move closer, lips and eyes, KISS.
PHASE SHIFT CLOSER ROUTINE: Are you intuitive? OK.. Are you intelligent? OK.. Do
you understand to follow directions? OK.. Give me your hands..
Take her hands, and run some ring based routine, or palm-reading or some
BULLSHIT.. Then talk about soul-gazing and Romans and how they knew emotional
crap.. Then talk about emotions and it being ALL YOU NEED IN LIFE, and do The
EVOLUTION PHASE SHIFT KISS CLOSE (check the Style/CPowles archive for it.. you
grab her hair and say its a natural spot and feels good, and to do it to you,
etc., etc.)
THEN, either ISOLATE, or talk softly and fun about your FUTURE GET TOGETHER.
If you don't isolate and same-day f-close, FUCK THE #CLOSE and get a MEET with
the chick. Maybe get the #, but REMEMBER that she may have a LIVE IN BOYFRIEND
or HUSBAND, so do NOT push the #. Get the MEET, and make it CONVENIENT for
yourself to get there on the chance that she flakes.
For meets, I suggest taking her somewhere that is absolutely COST FREE, and gets
her adrenaline going. Try taking her to a strip where they have sexy/outrageous
clothing, and try it on with her.
The confidence that guys like Twentysix or I have now, after 4 nights per week
or NON STOP SARGING is probably enough, because we can FOLLOW it with TIGHT
STUFF and have a PUA AURA. But for ANY guy who hasn't laid many many chicks yet,
or hung out non-stop with a guy who has and modelled him, this approach is

This way, you project yourself as FUN/EXCITING/CHALLENGING/CONFIDENT.. Plus, by
kiss closing by the end of the first encounter, you really set the frame for an
early lay.

Just remember that PARTY GIRLS can OMIT the RAPPORT, while LIBRARIAN GIRLS can
omit large chunks of the C&F/ATTRACTION. Girls who are IN BETWEEN can just take
some of EACH.

What I've written here is the REAL SHIT, FIELD TESTED, and actually REAL.

The 'hi' opener is flawed BECAUSE of what you PERCEIVE as its best attribute.
When you go up and say 'hi', you always get a good response, because the chick
will most often feel inclined to be socially-courteous.. Even if you bust on her
for not being sociable, if you don't have the C&F frame down well enough to open
using it, then you won't be successful in that kind of busting on her anyway..
It'll just trigger her guilt, and make her chat you out of obligation.
This is what you DO NOT want.
(the ONLY exception being is if your game is HEAVILY SS/NLP based, and you can
turn her on using patterns and hypnotic demos, which is not typically a good
route to take as a primary MO)
You want her SHIT TESTING you, so that you can use shit testing evasive measures
to prove yourself to her, and get her TURNED ON.
That's one of the main BENEFITS to doing QUALIFYING right off the gate. You're
even better using the KISS GAME at the VERY START of the PU, just to set that
Here's an example of a fuckup that fellow ASFer 10magnet and I had tonight,
PU'ing a stripper where 10magnet works (he works at a strip club).
10: hey.. do girls think that David Bowie is hot?
HER: I dunno.. I like (something here that I forget)
TD: oh dude.. this is a BAD GIRL..
HER: ha.. you know me 5 seconds after meeting me
(This is NOT GOOD AT ALL, because she's not ENGAGED sexually.. again, her
agreement is NOT GOOD for the PU.. she is trying to CHAT US, which is NOT GOOD..
but watch how we turn it around)
TD: Yeah right.. whatever.. you're like PG13 bad.. you can't hang with us unless
you're FOR REAL.. are you adventurous?
HER: haha, this is a challenge.. and if I was dumb enough to fall for it, I'd
probably hook up with you guys (this chick is clearly WISE to the game, as she
is a stripper)
10: oh, so I guess you won't be at the company picnic tomorrow?
HER: hahaha.. in WINTER??
10: yeah, for real.. its at Nathan Phillips Square, tomorrow at 3pm..
TD: yeah.. seriously.. show up.. WE'LL *BE-THERE*..
HER: hahahahha..
Then we STALL, and she's like "ummmm.. Monday tomorrow, eh? What are you guys up
to" or some shit like that.. (this is REINITIATING CONVO, which is a strong IOI
coming from a chick like this.. unfortunately we weren't really "sarging" since
it was unexpected as well as 2-on-1, so we didn't exploit it like we normally
We saw the bartender at a restaurant later in the night, and he told us that she
liked us apparently.. Had we just taken her answer to the David Bowie question,
I can tell you from experience, there would have been ZERO attraction.
Point was, I could have gone into qualifying her for making enough $$$ from her
job to support me, and shit like that (this I've done a million times and it
Then we'd KEEP DOING THAT, to keep the frame of a PU. THEN and ONLY THEN, do you
move into rapport building.
OK, here is the problem with the CONVERSION FALLACY on ASF:
Guys start PU'ing women, but don't f_close them.. So they use certain lines that
get GOOD REACTIONS, but not LAYS. Then the POST ABOUT THEM, saying a bunch of
shit about how its a money line.. They don't CLOSE, so they extrapolate that it
must be good, just because the REACTION they got was good, even though it didn't
convert to a LAY. This is like wearing a CLOWN SUIT to a club - it gets good
An example of that is when an uglier guy says "I'm an ass model" as an answer to
the work question. This is a GOOD line in terms of REACTION, but BAD in terms of
CONVERSION TO LAYS. (some guys DO pull it off really well though.. I'm just
If you're ugly, its just REMINDING her of your shortcomings, and being a CLOWN.
This is like if you asked a FAT CHICK what she does, and she says a "lingerie
model".. this just REMINDS you of her nastiness even more..
So the "HI" opener is yet another CONVERSION FALLACY on ASF. YES, it can help
you lay chicks who give you APPROACH INVITATION, or chicks who are on the SAME
looks level as you. But it doesn't set the PICKUP FRAME on SUPER HOTTIES, the
way that the VALUE CONVEYING openers that I've put examples of do.
If I were to do a test, where I'd spend 1 hour per day for a year, using "hi" as
an opener on HB9+ chicks, and 1 hour per day using a challenging/qualifying
opener, the result would be roughly something like:
-6 chicks opened and convo initiated / 0 snubs
-0 chicks successfully PU'ed - either fclose or non-flake meet (maybe one every
few weeks)
-5 HB9 chicks per year
-2 chicks opened and convo initiated / 4 snubs
-1 chick PU'ed (2 days per week)
-100 HB9+ chicks per year (maybe you fuck 20 of them who the meet goes well, or
who you don't screen for personality flaws)
So your SP, IMO, is that you associate OPENING with SEXUAL INTERACTIONS, when
the two are NOT related. Notice that you're AWESOME with PU right now (according
to Twentysix), but you're not LAYING many chicks?? This is the CONVERSION
problem at work, and its an extremely common problem.
On kiss closes:
This is after TWO MONTHS clubbing experience, and NO MORE. My word on this is
NOT FIELD TESTED enough to draw CONCRETE conclusions. These are just my
impressions at THIS TIME, and may CHANGE.
OK, here's where I got this from:
My club game was originally so weak, it was sub-AFC no doubt.
Then, as I improved, I'd start kiss-closing more regularly. Now in my mind, I
thought "a kiss close is GUARANTEED non-flake, because the chick has to JUSTIFY
having kissed you".. This was my strong belief, because in STREET SARGING, when
you kiss a chick within 20 minutes, she FALLS IN LOVE WITH YOU.
What happened next, though, was that I got a bunch of FLAKES. I couldn't BELIEVE
IT. I'd never been clubbing before, but I just couldn't believe that chicks
would actually FLAKE on a guy who they had such good chemistry with as to make
out with in under 20 minutes. I was like "WTF IS THIS SHIT??? THESE CHICKS ARE
If anyone recalls the fuckup report from Montreal, where the chick keeps kissing
me and groping me, but won't let me close - THAT was when I first started having
THESE THOUGHTS. It was Wall_Street reply to me in that post, that CHANGED MY
GAME so much. After Wall_Street's reply, my strategy CHANGED, to NO KISS CLOSE.
The idea is this:
-chicks LOVE foreplay
-many chicks LOVE making out with different guys, EVERY WEEKEND
I realized this when chatting one of my pivots. I was talking about how I kiss-
closed these chicks using all this STRATEGY, and she LAUGHED AT ME.
She was like "hahha.. if you wanna make out with a chick, just go up and make
out.. kissing a club chick is nothing to brag about.. as if you used all this
STRATEGY.. I make out with different guys EVERY WEEKEND.. you know what?? So
does x-girl, y-girl, z-girl (ALL who I thought were INNOCENT).. you think you're
so smart, but I bet these girls won't talk to you the next day.. they GOT what
they WANTED.. the ONLY guys who I'll hookup with down the line if I met them in
a club, are the ones who I had a REAL connection with, and didn't just grope
each other like animals the whole night.. if I kiss a guy I know it's just a
I was like "WTF is this shit??????"
Of course, listening to a chick is usually NOT GOOD.. But in this particular
case, what she said CONFORMED to the model of what I'd EXPERIENCED. It all made
perfect sense to me, so I thought I'd FIELD TEST a non-kiss close club game.
So from THEN ON, I used the "HANDS OFF THE MERCHANDISE" line, and REFUSED all
kiss-closes. I focused on FIRST building attraction, and SECOND building
I started getting girls CHASING me, and wondering "WHO THE FUCK IS THIS GUY WHO
They'd chase and chase, and try to # close *ME*. I was like "HOLY SHIT, I had a
chick # close **ME**.. WTF is going on here??? I didn't think this was
And ALL of them wouldn't flake. They'd LOVE me, and show up ON TIME, and all
that shit.
The only FLAW with this, is that you PASS on MANY one-night-stand opportunities.
Since Twentysix nor I are INTERESTED in one night stand with club hoes, this
method works PERFECT. Twentysix has YET to kiss-close in a club (other than the
kiss-game which is not the same), and he gets dates ALL THE TIME, with
remarkably LOW flake-ratio.
My THEORY (as it is NOT field tested enough, and still just a THEORY), is that
when you kiss-close, you SLOT yourself into the S-U-B-C-A-T-E-G-O-R-Y of guys
that the chick USES as kissy-face-buddies every weekend.
My THEORY is that kissing in a CLUB, is NOT ALPHA, because SO MANY Beta-males
are CAPABLE of it, and do it REGULARLY. My THEORY is that it is MORE ALPHA to
make her WANT YOU SO BAD (as well as all the chicks AROUND her), and then tell
her that she can't have you unless it's during the DAYTIME, since you aren't
interested in LITTLE FROLLICKY CLUB HOES. This could come across like you're
banging too many chicks ALREADY, or that you have STANDARDS, or WHATEVER. I
dunno, it's still a THEORY.
The ONLY way, is the way that COMMANDER ZAP suggested, which is to get DEEP
RAPPORT and go BEYOND IT. For me, when I kiss-close now, I go into DAMAGE
CONTROL. ALL I am thinking is how to FRAME this as NOT just a club-thing, and
that it DOES deserve to be CONTINUED. I talk about how I don't want to meet, and
get her to convince me. Then I talk about how maybe she IS right, and we
shouldn't let SOCIAL RESTRICTIONS dictate that a club hookup isn't a REAL
connection, just because people STEREOTYPE it like that.
Again, NOT THOROUGHLY FIELD TESTED YET. Probably more field tested than 90% of
what goes around the board, but STILL not field tested enough.
I'd like guys to THINK about it and to give me your THOUGHTS, but not to take it
seriously just yet. It needs more testing by somebody with BETTER club game than
Now for guys like Mystery and Style, this shit may not apply, because their game
is SO TIGHT. When a chick kisses them, its an INTENSE EXPERIENCE for them,
because of the IMPRESSION they've set.  The kiss is like the CLIMAX of the
adventure that they've STRUCTURED.
But for for the intermediate level guys, it may be something to consider. All
that I can report is that it WORKS for Twentysix and I.

Tyler Durden:
Cognitive Dissonance is a term that everyone here should understand. It's often
used, but many people don't really understand it. Like much of psychology, it
may seem "obvious" on the surface, but it's actually quite counterintuitive.
IMO, understanding what CD is, will allow you a better understanding of the
"WHY" behind a lot of techniques that may work, yet the techniques are actually
very different.

IF you understand Cognitive Dissonance (CD), then you'll understand...

Why being a "jerk" works.
Why "take-aways" work.
Why C&F works.
Why being an AFC doesn't work.

What is "Cognitive Dissonance"  The Original Experiment: A psychologist named
Leon Festinger had students do a really, really, really MUNDANE and BORING task
for an hour. To be specific, they gave college students a board that had
something like 25 sewing thread spools arranged in a 5x5 square. They were
instructed to turn a spool ¼ turn, then go on to the next one in the row. When
they completed the row they were to start with the next row. Then, when they got
to the bottom, they started with another ¼ turn on the top row and continued
that for all spools in all rows, and then another ¼ turn… (getting bored already
just reading about it?! ). They had them do this for an HOUR to make sure they
were REALLY bored!!

When they were done with the experiment, they told the student "Hey, we need
your help. We have the next participant waiting in the lobby. Will you tell him
that this was an interesting experiment?" (and then they offered the participant
either $.25 or $20.00). The next participant in the waiting room was actually a
confederate and wasn't really waiting for the experiment. After the participant
was done telling the guy waiting in the lobby that the experiment was
interesting, they asked him to rate how much he enjoyed the experiment. Who do
you think enjoyed the experiment more -- the guy that got a little bit of money
or the guy that got a lot of money?

You're probably thinking the guy that got paid more enjoyed it more, right? If
you said that, then you would be wrong! Why? Here's the theory. The participant
knows the experiment was boring since he was bored while doing it (attitude).
However, he also told the guy waiting that it was exciting (behavior). Thus, his
attitude and behavior are inconsistent. And this creates a state of internal
tension since we all seek internal harmony. So the guy tries to "reduce" the
dissonance. The guy that got paid $20 says to himself "Well, I told the guy it
was interesting because I got paid $20 to say that." In contrast, the guy that
got paid little really doesn't have a good excuse when he reflects on why he
told the lie so he interprets and examines his own behavior of telling the guy
it was interesting and decides that maybe it was interesting after all. In order
to reduce the dissonance, he adjusts his attitude so he is internally


More theory...This section is from:

Background Cognitive dissonance is a theory in American psychology, first
expounded by Leon Festinger in 1957. He was a professor of psychology at
Stanford University and was the first to publish any work in the field of
Cognitive Dissonance. Imagine the following situation. Two adult male friends, A
and B, are arguing about the conduct of the "younger generation". A maintains
that they are a pretty bad lot, irresponsible, undisciplined, unkempt and
indolent. B believes that they are no worse than young people of previous
generations, and in some respects they are even better. This lack of agreement
is what Festinger calls Cognitive Dissonance. There is a kind of consistency
between what a person knows or believes, and what he does. Sometimes, people are
not always successful in explaining away or in rationalizing inconsistencies to
themselves. As Festinger claims, for one reason or another, attempts to achieve
consistency may fail. The inconsistency simply continues to exist. In such a
case, psychological discomfort prevails. Festinger replaced this "inconsistency"
with the word "Dissonance". Festinger's Hypothesis • The existence of Dissonance
being psychologically uncomfortable, will motivate the person to try to reduce
the dissonance and achieve consonance. • When Dissonance is present, in addition
to trying to reduce it, the person will actively avoid situations and
information which would likely increase the dissonance.


What the fuck does this have to do with Seduction?

A lot, actually. If you are trying to get someone to do something and
internalize the behavior -- i.e. you want them to do it again and you want them
to want to do it, then you provide as little incentive as possible (or as little
EXTERNAL cause for their behavior). Why? Because then when the woman is
reflecting on her behavior and why she did what she did, she will conclude that
it was because she wanted to. And she'll attribute her behavior to herself
(internal) rather than external factors.

• David D talks a lot about ATTRACTION and creating the feeling of attraction.
Lots of AFC behavior like buying gifts, spending money, basically prevents any
dissonance from ever occurring. If the woman likes the guy she can easily
conclude it is because of the gifts/behaviors the guy is doing/showing (external
attribution) and she then never has to turn inward to her own feelings. Without
this internal search for how she feels, she is unlikely to develop that gut-
level attraction.

Some Lounge members have discussed the problem of being "too good" in a set or
"blowing it up" and then getting blurring when they go to follow-up on the
number. Apply this theory and you have a clear solution: From the CD
perspective, perhaps the woman provided her phone number to you because you were
entertaining to her. The next day when she thinks it over, or when you call, she
thinks "I gave the guy my number because he seemed interesting but maybe that
was a mistake." Solution: Be less entertaining. Get her involved and invested in
the outcome. Planning what you're going to do when you get together increases
her involvement and increases the likelihood she will not flake.

Kiss Closes: Some girls may kiss guys in clubs just for "fun"--to get attention,
elevate their feelings of being desired, etc. when she's reflecting back the
next day on WHY she kissed you, she thinks "Oh, I was just having fun. I was
drunk. It was for entertainment...I don't really like him." And she has
essentially talked herself out of any attraction to you. By getting a Kiss close
that you thought was moving things forward, you have inadvertently PREVENTED
them from moving forward! (how's that for a reframe!)

EXTERNAL FACTORS: if someone does something that is TOO FAR out of their comfort
zone or typical experience, they may chalk up the "why" to external factors as
they provide a convenient excuse/rationale for the behavior. A lot of flaking
may occur because things are moving too fast for the woman and that sets off her
External factors trigger.
"I was drunk."
"That wasn't me; I don't normally do that."

Sex. Here's a GREAT application. Wondering how to get your woman to feel great
about performing the sex act of your choice? Wonder no more… Imagine you want
her to love to suck on your cock. Scenario: She's giving you some oral pleasure.
What do you say to her? "HB, I love it when you suck my cock!" No. Instead you
say to her:
You:  HB, Do you like sucking my cock?"

HB: "yes."

You: "Tell me how much you like sucking my cock. I need to hear you say it."

HB: "I love to suck your cock."

You: (reward her with smile, anchor this with a touch, and ask her to say it

Net effect: when she thinks it over, she will remember what she was saying to
you "I love to suck your cock" and she will think "Wow, that's kind of a wild
thing to say for a woman. I wonder why I said that. I guess I must love to suck
his cock!"


>> Swinggcat: EVing (Eliciting Values): A couple years ago I use to do that a
lot. But now I know that this is really just a sophisticated form of
supplication. I mean it is coming from the wrong frame: you are giving her the
opportunity to screen you.
> MB: Yes, so true. In the past two weeks I had two women virtually walk away
from me after I asked them what they wanted from a man. Since women tend to hold
onto some ideal image of the ultimate male, having her imagine him only makes
her realize you are not that guy no matter how rich or attractive you may be. As
well, EVing also implies "tell me what you want and I will give it to you" which
comes off as highly AFC and akin to a doormat.

Lovedrop: First, let me say that I respect both of these guys. I view them both
as far enough ahead of my own abilities that I almost didn't even send this
Eliciting Values is a commonly misunderstood topic. In fact, aside from Negs, EV
is the most commonly misunderstood subject in seduction (IMHO.) I'm still
surprised to see this misunderstanding displayed by Swinggcat and MB. I hope
that perhaps it is just that the wording is confusing, not their understanding
itself, but I still feel the need to clarify because I think any newbie reading
the above paragraphs would end up with the wrong idea of what EV is really all

The MISTAKEN IMPRESSION of EV is that you are asking a woman what she wants in a
man. This is not true! A much better term for "eliciting values" would be
"eliciting valued states." A few examples:
M: What do you want in a man?
H: Well, I want someone confident and funny.
M: [Tries to act confident and funny.]
WRONG WRONG Totally incorrect!! This does NOT elicit the states that she
desires. "Confident" and "funny" ARE NOT HER VALUES!!!
H: I just love confident men.
M: When you .. remember being with a confident man, how do you feel?
H: Mmm, I feel safe. [Entering the state as she remembers it.]
M: And what's it like to feel safe? How would you describe that feeling?
H: It's like my worries or anxiety just floats away, I just feel carefree.
[Associating more and more into the state.]
M: That's right...all those things....just float away...when you FEEL SAFE ...
with me .. it's just so a little kid at the park...running
around laughing....
Etc!! "safe" and "carefree" are values. "Confident" and "funny" are NOT VALUES.
The above elicitation doesn't even have to be about a man. It could be about
what challenges her at work. It could be about her favorite hobby. It could be
about how she feels when she is dancing. GET IT? It has NOTHING to do with what
she is "looking for".

Eliciting Values is:
1) Discovering the states that have meaning to her, the meta-states about those
states, and the sensations that trigger those states.
2) By asking questions designed to cause her to access these states, SHE
In other words, EV is like are installing states! Only,
instead of installing a state that you THINK would be useful, you are
structuring your language so that SHE will find the most useful state to
This is VERY VERY different than merely asking a woman what she wants in a man.
Too often I see people talking about "eliciting values" (especially on ASF) and
they are just completely out of touch with what it REALLY means.
The TRUTH is, Screening and Eliciting Values are NOT mutually exclusive, and do
NOT set opposite frames. That is, assuming that EV is well understood and done
Again, I would be surprised if Swinggcat didn't know this concept already...I
think the wording was just bad...but this type of confusion shouldn't be should be corrected.


Eric H.:
> Qdini: Dreamweaver converted me into dis pimpology shit, you know what 'm
sayin' ? Two mo' weeks of dis shit and I be a certifayable pimp. No mo' jobs....
no mo' edumacation...just makin' dough thru mah ho's. You know what dey
say....Doctors need
nurses, priests need nuns, an' ho's need PIMPS. Cuz if a ho don't get no
instruction, she's gonna be headin' fo self destruction...
"Bitch jumped in the car asked me where we goin'? I'm Qdini the pimp, bitch, you
goin' hoin"

Eric H.: Most of this was quoted DIRECTLY from the movie "American Pimp", just
for your records.


OK, you know I'm always on the lookout for something new. Well, while at the
dildo shop last week stocking up on new toys for Nancy's visit, I was cracking
up with the chick behind the counter and asked if there was anything I needed to
know about....she handed me a sample pack of Stamina RX. She went on the tell me
wild tales about her sex life on this stuff and also handed me a pink pack for
girls. I bit. Well, I thought it was going to be a fight getting Nancy to try
this stuff but I got Felicia to read her the ingredients while she made a
surprise house call (not yet) the other nite and so she was sold. Cliff, without
offering a whole bunch of detail that you don't want to read lemme tell you,
this is the best over the counter shit I have ever seen. One hour after taking 2
pills I was on cloud nine, and so was Nancy. It was like a mild ecstasy but
better, more sensations. The peak lasted about 1 1/2 hours and Nancy said she'd
never had a more powerful orgasm, and she had several. I'd have to agree with
that statement. Phenomenal!!!!!!!
Any sex shop should carry the stuff. The little packs are $3 for 2 pills. My 5
star endorsement.
(Here is the pitch from the website, followed by another comment by GameMaster:)
"Stamina-Rxâ„¢ utilizes a compound that stimulates the production of nitric oxide,
leading to the production of cyclic GMP (cGMP). It is the cGMP which ultimately
affects smooth muscle relaxation, allowing the penile arteries to expand and
fill with blood. PDE-5 is an enzyme that binds to and digests cGMP.If cGMP is
digested too quickly, its "relaxing" effect on penile smooth muscle tissues will
be reversed, causing the erection to weaken (in many cases this will happen so
rapidly, it will appear as if no erection was ever present). Simply stated, PDE-
5 can be a REAL erection killer. Stamina-Rxâ„¢ utilizes xanthoparmelia scabrosa, a
natural source of Pyrazolo pyrimidinone (a core component of leading
prescription medications for impotence). This component of the Stamina-Rxâ„¢
formula serves to effectively inhibit PDE-5 activity...allowing the body to
sustain an erection!"

GameMaster:  I just read their pitch on the website. OK, it does that, but there
is a euphoric effect that goes along with all that as well. this stuff is a real
buzz, it ain't just designed for hardons. But that may keep the feds away from
their doorstep a while longer. I bought two bottles tonite.
Retail price: $34.99    Our price: $29.99, 2/$56.99, 3/$80.99


Mark B.:
Let's clarify the direct approach and compliments. These days I have cut back on
compliments and only mention a woman's level of attractiveness only in the right
context. I never make it seem as if I am saying "Hey, you're beautiful, let's
get together" which is very shallow and superficial and rarely works. In the
past I used it as an opener but found that I still got good results because I
followed the comment up with a conversation that did not focus on a woman's
beauty. These days I strike up a conversation based on the setting and only when
I feel that I have a good connection with a woman will I let her know it would
be a good idea for us to see each other again on the basis of the "good
connection" that we had in the initial conversation. My approach over the years
continues to evolve and not a week goes by where I don't learn something new
about the process. My purpose now rather than to get a number is to meet and
genuinely enjoy a woman's company and the interaction with her rather than
objectify the process and go for a number. Women still know I want them and find
them appealing but somehow I do not find that letting them know that you finding
appeal in them serves to harm you as long as you do not fall into the trap of
allowing her to control and dictate your frames and falling prey to and failing
her shit tests.
I'll also say something to her about herself such as "you have great positive
energy" and then have her carry on with how right I am about my assessment of
her. This I lead to some negs and deal with any shit tests that she throws out
at me and basically try to have my way with her. I challenge a woman's beliefs
and opinions but never put her down or demean her. I question her and her
motivations and show inconsistency in her behaviour and put her on the spot a
lot in terms of what she said and did and whether or not there exists an
inconsistency between the two.
Mostly these days I let my non-verbal clues let a woman know I want her and
allow my verbal communication to let her know what I want and what I look for in
a woman. As well I have come to notice the great importance of passing her shit
tests in terms of not allowing her to set the frame so to speak as well as
challenging and standing up to her flakiness, emotionalism, inconsistent
behaviour and other undesirables. To my great and pleasant surprise women have
showed an extremely favourable response to being challenged and one actually
went to the extent recently of becoming extremely accommodating and pleasing in
terms of buying dinners, clothes and inviting themselves over for the night.
I believe that there are basically two ways to show a woman we find appeal in
her. The first which virtually everyone either does or has done is to compliment
her, touch her a lot, smile a lot and generally kiss her ass and make a great
effort to try and please her. Highly AFC behaviour strictly on its own.
The second and from what I have realized more effective way of approaching a
woman is to show and tell her what we do not want and will not tolerate in her
as a woman and with respect to her behaviour - flakiness, emotionalism, etc. The
way I see is that when you let her know what you want and not want and stand
firm by your position she has a frame of reference for pleasing you and knows
what will and will not appeal to you as a man, sexually and otherwise. Here she
gets a dose of what will not make you happy and how to modify her behaviour to
serve you in the way you want. As well this second aspect tends to encompass an
indication as to what you want in her and what appeals to you - passionate, good
kisser, self comfort, highly sexual among others and also letting her know you
will not accept a deviation from your standard.
Most women tend to throw out massive shit tests at the beginning when they meet
a man to qualify him as a worthy fuck buddy or a relationship partner. Often
these tests consist of flaky behaviour (Dennis Neder writes about this in his
book), lack of real response to you, questioning you, being illusive and general
game playing. But the key is to stand up to her, challenge the hell out of her
shit tests and her bullshit behaviour - tame the wild horse so to speak. Once
you have passed her wall of tests you have her pussy on a platter.
It seems to me that men who fail with women tend to do a lot of the first and
little of the second, that is they fail to show displeasure with some aspect of
female behaviour. They do so out of fear and worry that a woman will leave if
they do not succumb to her wishes or run out of fear if they challenge her. I
admit I have had some highly humbling experiences in this area and learned my
lessons the hard way but they served me well and made me the man I am today.
Cases in point
I have been seeing a stripper from the Brass Rail in Toronto. When I first met
her she gave me her number but did not return my calls as she claimed not to get
my messages. I went to the bar and gave her hell for not getting back to me. She
loved the attitude and asked me out for the following day. Then after a few
weeks she began flaking out on me and missed a few get togethers. So I yelled at
her calmly and told her if she wants to see me she better learn to keep her word
and that her flakiness is unacceptable and to get her shit together. She
apologized, bought me a few dinners, some clothes and invited herself over to my
place for a few nights.
But here is a classic failure from the last few years which smells typical AFC.
Hot looking black woman, body to kill for with the fullest most fucking luscious
lips any woman could have. I fell in "love" and went on a mission to score her.
I bought her gifts, phoned her all the time, expressed my feelings, listened to
her and did whatever she said only to have her evolve into an unruly beast. The
greater demands she exacted the more I tried to please her and never questioned
her ever escalating nonsensical web of lies, deceit, game playing and general
disorder. Finally after getting nowhere she said she was not into me "that way"
and stopped responding to me totally. My error here was in trying to please her
rather than myself and not ever questioning her ever escalating unacceptable
behaviour. But it is this type of massive failure that has set the stage for my
current approach as the anger that grew within me provided me with the emotional
need to find the right method.
Now when I i.d. a target I know that she will shit test me and I get ready for
it. I accept a degree of volatility and know I have to be on my toes. But I find
that being direct or indirect really does not matter as long as you are able to
either keep it light and deal with her shit tests. Telling a woman she is
stunning is only a small part of the total interaction and I find really
irrelevant to success or failure. It's the nature of your follow up conversation
and style that tends to determine one's success. I have the following acronyms I
use to remind myself of what to do.
QQCT and ESSU which stand for Question and Qualify, Challenge and Tell - tell
being tell her what I think she is like - typical SS mind stuff - "you seem
passionate, like you like such and such and are this way and that way, etc."  E
for eye contact, S for sexual interest and the other S for silent pause and U
for under-sell - that is go for what I want and then stop. This for me is a
basic blue print that I have evolved over the years.


Maximillian Hell:
What is the lipstick test?
>Riker:  Also, you may wish to quote women her age, or even better in a positive
way, cite examples of you being involved with women her age.

Maximillian Hell: Brilliant stuff Riker! I'd like to hear an example of this
quoting. I assume you mean something like "this woman I know, who is about your
age, only goes out with guys that are X years older than her. She says blah
> Veroxii: And I do the tic-tac routine. So I stop, take out 3 tic-tacs from my
bag... all very dramatic...  put one in my mouth, really seductively, sucking on
my finger. Then one for HB7 who really goes for it and sucks my finger for like
30 seconds! HB8.5 just laughs and goes like "OMG!!". Then it's her turn and she
does the same too! Sucking away.

Maximillian Hell: I try to throw out anything I've got, no matter how minor it
might seem, just as food for thought. An Italian-born friend of mine related a
funny story concerning his fiance. Before he started dating her, he was at a
club with her and a native Italian guy. He warned her that Italian guys were
PUAs--she brushed off his concerns. Later, he goes to go to the bathroom, when
he gets back, the Italian has her fingers in his mouth, and she has a stunned
expression on her face, like she can't figure out how she got taken so quickly.
She is a solid 9, and apparently from a rich background. I tried to pick my
Italian friend's brain for PU ideas. He is really modest and claims to have no
game (he's a very good looking guy in my opinion). He does however say that he
tries to be "the quiet, mysterious guy."

On another note: I always dread opening groups. I was getting IOIs from 2 HBs in
a 3-set on the train, but their UG friend seemed hostile to me, thus I didn't
approach. Dumb, I know, but it seems like I am always getting negged by UGs
(also the rare times I get a cold IOI, I somehow freeze up, a weird
psychological hangup I guess. Despite all the approaches I do, I still have some
shyness issues). In this circumstance, it strikes me that approaching the UG
would have made me look like I wasn't confident enough to approach the HBs, who
were pretty much equally good-looking. Also, I somehow feel that if I am opening
a group that I have to be too much of a performer. The trouble with public
transportation is that you often have to get up and walk over to the target(s),
seemingly odd behavior. Busier hours that are standing room only offer better
opportunities for an approach, and I usually utilize these, but now that I am
back in the US I hardly ever ride the train during busy hours.

cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.



One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.


Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):


[all words] [any words]

This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***f@cl***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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