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I want Chef Lorraine to serve me a slice of her delicious fresh-baked pie
3/7/03 11:27:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
Cliff's List Website
Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list
is all about. Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also,
as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.
The revised site www.be-relentless.com is now up. The bells & whistles are not
added yet (eg. sound and video clips) but we would like your opinions on the
-text & links
-anything else that you notice, positive or negative.
Please also try out the site for it's speed between links, functionality,
technology, etc. Try and jam it if you can.
Your comments would be greatly appreciated to help us finish off the site before
we go out to the market with it.
David's Email Newsletter is also gearing up. We need questions for David so if
you have any questions about relating to women, including where to find them,
how to get them, what to do with them, how to keep them, how to get them back,
etc. etc. please send your questions to dav***[email protected]***.com[ ? ].
All subscribers of these emails will be given a free subscription and, as here,
you can unsubscribe at any time. I know that you will find his comments and
advice to be pretty unique and very useful. We are also making progress on the
long awaited book which we hope will be ready relatively soon now.
The tapes of the David Seminar are now available and are being shipped upon
receipt of your order, but please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. You can visit
the website at www.be-relentless.com and orders should be made through paypal
(go to www.paypal.com and send money to sal***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]) if you need
some other way to make payment, inquire at inf***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]. This product
comes on 5 Video CD's for a total of approximately 6 hours of playing time. They
will work in any DVD player that will play Video CD standards or in computer CD-
ROM drives using Window's Media Player application. The price is $230 USD + $20
USD for the Video CD's which covers shipping and handling anywhere in the world.
Inquire about shipping by overnight courier.
Private in person or telephone consultations with David are available. David is
particularly intuitive with regard to your specific individual problems with
certain women. You can get on the phone, answer his questions on the situation,
and he will give you very insightful advice on how to succeed in your particular
PLEASE NOTE: This David is not to be confused with David DeAngelo of
www.doubleyourdating.com (who has posted some great stuff here under the name
"Sisonpyh"), or David Shade (of www.davidshade.com).
Correction: The post in the last email about Cognitive Dissonance was reposted
by Tyler Durden to Mystery's Lounge (it should have been attributed to Dr. Jay)
and the credit for it should have gone to Dr. Jay. My humble apologies.
Clint "ArtÃ©" Arthur (www.NewSensualPower.com):
Field Report: Mystery's Mastery
On Friday night I had the honor of watching a true master at work. I was a guest
at Mystery's Los Angeles ASF workshop, and was privileged to benefit from
observing him in action as both a teacher and a Man On The Town. The entire
experience was truly EXTRAORDINARY and PROFOUND.
My night began with a private dinner in the lounge of the ultra-hip Standard
Hotel on the Sunset Strip, where Mystery, his wing-man Style and I engaged in a
lengthy discourse about the ASF community, sexual power, sex magic, my new book
"9 Free Secrets of New Sensual Power," and the very nature of Energy.
Mystery is as intelligent, well-spoken, and charismatic as any man I've ever
met, and at the conclusion of our dinner, when he proclaimed Desire to be the
ultimate determinant of power, it was a true breakthrough moment of clarity and
insight, I think, for all of us.
Style is quite the Renaissance Man himself. Educated, worldly, and articulate,
he proved to be a skilled diplomat as well; when Mystery and I seemed to be at
complete loggerheads over our respective brands of Sex Magic. You see, Mystery's
sex magic seems to be about using actual "presto-change-o" kind of magic to get
sex. My kind of Sex Magic is about implanting positive suggestions into one's
subconscious during sex in order to make one's goals, ambitions and dreams come
into reality. "For example," I said to Mystery. "What are you thinking about
when you are getting a blowjob?"
He said, "I'm thinking about that great piece of ass between my legs."
I said, "See, I'm thinking about my book being #1 on Amazon.com"
"But you're wasting that great piece of ass!" he objected.
"And you're wasting that sexual energy that could be making your dreams come
true," I responded.
We went back and forth on this for quite a while, neither of us making any
headway with the other, until Style dissolved the spat with these few words:
"ArtÃ©, are you talking about Napoleon Hill's concept of Sex Transmutation?"
Suddenly Mystery and I were seeing eye to eye. (I was in my early 20's when I
read Think and Grow Rich, and at the time, hadn't understood Sex Transmutation.
With Style's help it all came clear.)
Shortly before the "Students" showed up for Mystery's workshop, a couple of
blondes walked up and started hitting on Mystery. One was a 7.5+ and the other
was a 5. He immediately started in on them with his charm and his sex-magic, and
they soon sat down and ordered a couple glasses of champagne. Then we couldn't
get rid of them.
As the workshop participants arrived our circle of seats kept growing until we
all went out to the terrace overlooking the sparkling lights of West Hollywood
for a more quiet atmosphere in which Mystery could give a brief "lecture" about
his theories and the program for the evening. This was a brilliant half-hour
under a brilliant full moon, sipping hot chocolates.
It was amazing to gain an understanding about the nature of Mystery's work. On
the surface it would seem it's just about picking up chicks. But deep down it is
extremely advanced and cutting edge self-help technology. The goal is not just
to score babes, but rather, to become a more dynamic, charismatic, successful
and sought-after person. Here, here!
Mystery's method springs from his theory that a true 10 cannot be approached
directly. She will require a prospective suitor to achieve social validation and
proof prior to admission to her exclusive and wonderful world. Thus, students
are instructed to tackle two-sets and three sets around the ultimate target, to
parlay the conquests and parade the pawns around the room as clear
demonstrations of desirability and worth prior to putting any moves on Miss
According to Mystery, scoring a 10 the only type of babe Mystery plays for is
a matter of making many chess-like moves on the high-stakes playing-field that
the ignorant refer to as a bar, a party, or a club. He says any man can do it,
but you gotta play the game to win.
The reasoning is truly genius. The scientific approach which ensues is total
mastery, having been developed, obviously, over many years and with the
participation of many naked HBs.
Topics covered that night included openers, routines, accessories, props,
finding, meeting, targets, body posture, stance, how to smile, what to wear,
patterns and patter, speech rhythms, timing, scoring, rating, time constraints,
how to command attention of a set when you're not even paying attention to it,
number closing, kiss closing, the binary rating system, image, and the concept
I particularly loved it when Mystery explained the importance of the setting up
a "forced time constraint" for yourself, using the example of the 2 dumb blondes
who sat down with us earlier and how uncomfortable it was for us not to be able
to get rid of them.
It was also great that Mystery and Style specifically instructed the Students
not to neg any girls who were less than "babes" because "They've got it hard
enough in life without getting negged." This type of compassion is truly
indicative of how Mystery's work is really about making "better people."
I was inspired many times during the night. The overall readiness of the
students to go out and dive into the various sets was amazing. These guys - who,
were it not for their studies of ASF, look like they'd probably be very shy,
non-world-beater fellows were fearless. They approached sets of three and four
8's and 9's like it was nothing. Mixed sets with guy cock-blocks were taken
equally well in stride. And after each set, Mystery and Style were there with
laser-precise comments of exactly what each student should do to improve on his
next outing. It was obvious that Mystery and Style not only had great skill and
knowledge of their material, but that they also truly care about the men they
teach, and about the ASF community, which they honestly (and rightly) believe is
making the world a better place, one set at a time.
The most impressive thing I saw all night was when Style went in on a 8 or 9-set
at a corner table. It was a mixed set with cool-looking guys and several HB9+s.
A girl in a hat (note the accessory) was proclaimed by all to be the hottest
chick at this Sunset Strip hotspot that night, and at Mystery's urging, Style
proceeded to work that set like a true master.
His approach: utter casualness and grace. Within moments he had many of them
laughing, high-fiving, and demonstrating his welcomeness in the group. He became
part of their set almost instantly, and when he ejected (with a phone number)
several minutes later, he knew their next scheduled stop on The Strip, and was
primed to rejoin his "new friends" for further work softening up these hard
My deep appreciation to Mystery, Style, and all the men of Friday night's
workshop for helping to understand the true value to society that this community
and this movement represents. When I left the Standard I felt like Mystery and
his men were responsible for so much of the fun that was had by so many people
that night. They truly made that environment a much better place. And they gave
me a new appreciation of how, through the use of Mystery's Methods, I could
become a better person.
> Mark B.: But I find that being direct or indirect really does not matter as
long as you are able to either keep it light and deal with her shit tests.
Telling a woman she is stunning is only a small part of the total interaction
and I find really irrelevant to success or failure. It's the nature of your
follow up conversation and style that tends to determine one's success.
aa aa: Well put, and I totally agree. Exactly what I am finding out. It doesn't
matter how I open up anymore, it's the overall interaction that counts.
Continuing the conversation and rapport is the key. I was getting gas at a gas
station and I opened up a target getting gas at the pump next to me with, "Hey,
do you know what time it is." Picture this said in a confident and nonchalant
Now, I have a question. And perhaps, you (Cliff) can answer this directly. I'm
wondering what type of results you or other people are getting out of street
approaches. I am finding street approaches to produce very little results,
perhaps because targets often cannot get over the fact that they met some guy on
the street. Please no "limiting beliefs" speech, I know it's possible, I'm just
observing that I get less apprehension and better results when I meet them in
other situations apart from the street PU, like striking up conversations with
people sitting next to me at lunch, in the train, shopping in stores. Even when
I get a number, it's the street PUs that I get the most flakes.
Clifford: Street PU
Here's something that I have some experience with having spent a good portion of
my summers stopping only the hottest looking women on the busy streets of
Montreal (and in the past in Chicago, L.A., NY, and....actually almost
My tried and true opener (what I also call my "default opener" for when I can't
think of anything else) is to look at them with a quizzical look on my face and
go "Excuse me, aren't you...you look exactly like..." and I drag this out for a
couple of minutes. During this time I am making a decision on whether she has a
sense of humour or not in this situation. If not, I continue with "I guess you
aren't the person I thought you were, but you look like you might be worth
getting to know in any event" or, again, something similar that just makes it an
even, somewhat serious-toned transition to wanting to know more about her. If I
feel she's got a sense of humour, I hit her with the punchline "You look exactly
like....someone I should meet!"
When I first come up to them I make a point of walking around them - I don't
come up to them and stay in one position, I keep moving around them so they have
to follow me with their eyes at least. This is done relatively slowly while
holding eye contact. It is interesting how this generates tremendous curiousity
in them and you also create instant rapport. From here, I usually pace the
ongoing reality and/or move into an intuitive cold reading about her - whatever
it is that pops into my head about her I will say. An example might be that
"...something tells me that while you don't usually meet someone in the middle
of the street, you are enough of an individual to want to know more about
someone who finds you attractive and lets you know this in a gentlemanly way."
Now I find street PU's work best when you are at your sharpest (not that this
should be any surprise). For example, I started up with this hot blonde in a
mall hallway and she says to me "No, you don't know me, I am not from here." So
I ask her where she's from and she says Germany, all the while leaning to keep
walking away from me. Then I ask her "Are there intelligent women in Germany?"
Now this really hooked her and we got into a spirited discussion for a few
minutes, but she kept insisting that she's got a BF for the last 6 years (I told
her it was time for a change) and I wasn't able to get past that. I have found
that appealing to their intelligence both by saying something about her being
intelligent (eg. saying she seems like an intelligent person) or by being
completely straight forward with them, especially about what is happening
between us at this very minute (treating them as a highly intelligent
individual), is very compelling.
Back to openers for a moment. I still use a few canned openers, but I strongly
prefer something that conveys direct interest based on what's happening at the
moment (such as the opener above) versus an indirect approach (eg. Ricki Lake,
asking an opinion, etc.). I will do those when they just spontaneously erupt
from me, but as I am usually only approaching 9's & 10's, I am not that
spontaneous - I try to read into what I am thinking about her but I might go
with a compliment opener, usually about either her energy, the way she carries
herself, or anything else that I specifically notice. But I have found that by
being clear about my interest is much better for me than being indirect as I
have found that they can get weirded out not knowing for sure what your
intentions are. On the flip side, I get a good sense of relief from them when
they know where you are coming from and, if you don't blow it, are much more
open and receptive after.
The next and most important step is to move to a close. I suggest why don't we
sit down and have a coffee? This is the most important step. If she's running
somewhere, then you go for the phone number or an email address if you feel that
there was enough interest. If not, I just toss them back and go after the next
one. Once you've isolated them and are sitting with them, after such a high
risk opening to your new relationship, I have found the closing ratio to be very
high. It's getting them isolated that is the big step.
Juggler Workshop Review and Lay Report
The following is a report of Juggler's workshop (http://www.seductionarts.com/)
in Vancouver (Stormwolf and myself were the participants) and a report of an
airport PU --> !close which took place in Seattle immediately following the
There is so much to be said about this workshop that Stormwolf and I can't
possibly cover all of the material, nor can we provide a full account of
EVERYTHING that was said and done, so to deal with the length of this report I
am going to cover the material that most helped me and give a few examples of
situations we encountered in the field with regards to each point and
subsequently give my overall thoughts on the workshop. There are some very
interesting and funny things that happened that I have left out since the post
is so friggin long as it is, but I will start other threads for them later (but
not tonight, I am SOOOOO wiped after I finish this post, LOL).
Stormwolf and I both went into the workshop with strong game by Juggler's
estimation. It was a marathon day/night workshop and the venues included, bars,
restaurants, clubs, streets, malls, clothing stores, bus stops, bookstores,
coffee shops, and even the beach. I am fairly positive I interacted with upwards
of 100 women in two days. It was tiring. I got very little sleep all weekend,
the least of the three of us. But that was primarily because I could feel my
game literally metamorphosing during the entire workshop and I wanted to be
awake for every second of it.
Juggler is a really cool guy. He is not only into seduction mentorship as a
business but he is genuinely interested in the success of his students and many
of his former students are now his close friends. We hit it off as soon as we
started talking on the phone.
Seeing him IRL was great. It's so cool to see the most normal looking guy
(Juggler looks about as Joe-Blow-average-dude as you can get) with such awesome
game. Women are into him wherever he goes.
When I showed up at the Seattle airport, having driven from Portland, to pick up
Juggler at the baggage claim, I had a sarge going and he jumped right in when he
saw me sarging before we even formally met.
"You will NEVER guess what Juggler does for a living," I said at one point in
"What DO I do for a living, SexPDX?," asked Juggler, "THIS should be
"Juggler is a garbage man," I began, "AND he has ANOTHER job....where he teaches
guys how to PU girls. In fact I have paid him to fly out here to teach me how.
He is famous for the effect he has on women, WORLD RENOWNED in fact."
Eventually I left to smoke a cigarette and Juggler continued talking to the
chick for a while. He told me later that he thought she was on the edge of
whether to believe us or not but he swayed her towards thinking it was a joke.
If she ONLY KNEW how true it was! Hahaha! That interaction set a good tone for
the weekend as we drove north to Vancouver where we would post up at Stormwolf's
place. I had been sarging with Stormwolf on previous occasions.
Juggler's eye for interpersonal interaction is astonishing. He was able to
observe many of my sarges and tell me exactly what the woman was thinking in
such a way that I couldn't argue with.
When he explained it made perfect sense to the point where I often found myself
wondering why the hell something he had observed in me was not a conclusion I
had come to myself. His insight has added years to my life by saving time
thinking "what if this? What if that?"
Juggler Method is a process that focuses on gaining deep rapport quickly by
targeting wide ranges of expression. The goal is to move towards the feeling
between you and the woman of being comfortable to freely express yourselves
about anything and the feeling of mutual desire to be involved in each other's
lives. If you can achieve these things, #closes, *closes, !closes, or whatever
will happen naturally because they are inevitable.
The Juggler Method itself, in my interpretation, is not a series of instructions
of what to say and do in order to achieve skill in the game because NO SUCH
INSTRUCTIONS EXIST. The method is more of a combination of a set of body
language techniques and a conversational framework, what is actually said comes
from YOU. Relying on yourself rather than material coming from OUTSIDE yourself
is the central philosophy of Juggler Method.
Juggler and I are in total agreement that viewing seduction as a battle to be
won or approaching it competitively is not the best frame of mind. Seduction is
a cooperative effort between you and the woman. The interactions are a dialogue
not a monologue. It's something you and her do together, not something you do
*to* her. And seduction should be something you do for your own enjoyment of it
and not something you do to look cool to others. The competitive attitudes that
have been cultivated among some guys in the seduction community do not help guys
get started nor are they something that help guys who already have game advance
their game and they are something that I would like to see abandoned.
For the record, I would like to at this time retract ANY criticism or chastising
I have ever directed towards Mystery students for insisting that one has to see
MM done IRL to get it because the same thing is true of Juggler Method. The body
language and conversational style are a huge part of the method and it they
don't come across completely on the internet.
*** JUGGLER AND "ALPHANESS" ***
Juggler's immediate observations of me were that I was "too alpha". By this he
meant that I had a lot of energy which had times came off as being aggressive.
When I started as a newbie a long time ago, I thought this was important. So I
tried to be as alpha as I could. My friends back home who are natural PUA's are
all much MORE alpha than me and I thought I was FAR from being "too alpha" but
Juggler thought otherwise. Since I don't even try to come across alpha at all
anymore, this was something I did unconsciously probably as result of exposure
to my very alpha friends. Juggler thought I needed to tone down the alphaness a
little because since I am tall, have a deep voice, and have an expressive face
with large eyes my alphaness was intimidating a lot of people. I never thought
about it that way but he was right.
*** OPENING ***
The first real day of the workshop pretty much blew away any sticking point I
had associated with opening. Prior to the workshop I could open fine MOST of the
time but I tended to reuse canned openers a little too much and relied heavily
on opinion openers (both of which I will still do occasionally).
What Juggler recommends is to enter a venue looking for openers rather than
looking for targets. To look for creative pretenses to talk to anyone. Kids,
UG's, dudes, old people, families. Whoever. If you can get good enough at this,
starting conversations with women who are actual targets you want to seduce will
be easier. Also, it's good to demonstrate to potential targets by talking to
non-targets in their vicinity that you are a confident person who is genuinely
interested in people and who has no problem talking to a stranger.
During one exercise, Juggler had us enter a Starbucks with a smile and get into
a good interaction with the first or second person we see. I talked to a
paramedic about my dad who is a cop back home and about his job for a while and
then over by the cream counter I managed to rally a semi-large group of people
around a picture hanging above the cream counter trying to figure out what the
picture was actually OF. Fun stuff.
Statements make the strongest openers. "I like..." for example is something he
Questions can be good as long as you can follow up with some good value-stacking
statements following the question. Something as simple as "Hi, how are you?"
with immediate follow-up in the form of statements can be good, too.
As the workshop went on, I found myself becoming so interested in finding
openers as a fun thing in itself that I would come up with openers and just HAVE
to use them. I saw a girl in a club with white nail polish and I told her, "I
like the way your nails glow under the black light." That opened really well,
she was into me from the beginning.
Eavesdropping on conversations and jumping in with a relevant statement relating
to the topic is good too.
Another way to create OPPORTUNITIES to open is to use what Juggler calls a
"break". Both Stormwolf and I found this to be very effective. Breaks can be
either verbal or physical. It is an action, physical or verbal that gets her
attention but is not directed AT her.
A verbal break would be to start a conversation with someone on the OTHER SIDE
of her from you and when she demonstrates attention to what is being said,
A physical break is to stand near her but look at something other than her and
when you see that she perks up and looks at you, open her. It's very hard to
explain all types of physical breaks without seeing it demonstrated IRL. You can
get very effective with the KINDS of physical breaks you do.
Physical breaks are deadly effective opening tools. Particularly effective in
the situation of two girls sitting at a table. Sometimes you have to get WAY
close and actually try it a few times to actually get the break, but once you do
get it and you open when it happens you are in a MUCH better position than if
you had opened only by talking to them without having their attention as result
of a physical break.
A simple example of an effective physical break would be those we did in our
approaches of women on benches in the mall.
Imagine that you are walking forward down a hallway and there is a target ahead
sitting on a bench on the left side. To do a physical break you would walk by
her close enough that she notices you and you turn to the left TOWARDS HER as
you sit on the other side of her. This will be very likely to get her to look at
you RIGHT AWAY at which time you can go right into your opener.
Although we did not field test this in the workshop, Juggler mentioned that he
would sometimes just go up and introduce himself with his name as an opener.
When I asked Juggler if he liked Gunwitch's idea of introducing yourself with
your first and last name he agreed with Gunwitch that it would demonstrate a lot
With static (stationary) as opposed to dynamic (moving) targets, there is not
too much pressure to have to open with the first thing you say.
Sometimes you can drop statements out separated by some lull before you finally
crack the nut and get her to open.
*** BODY LANGUAGE ***
It's funny that Juggler is such an expert on body language since his own posture
is actually pretty bad.
Nonetheless it works well for him since the most important thing is to appear
RELAXED. Perfect posture is not all that important. Besides, consciously second-
guessing your posture looks bad if it comes across. Just be relaxed, when it's
unconscious, it's genuine.
I never imagined there were so many body language mistakes there were in my game
until Juggler saw me in action. I don't know HOW long it would have taken me to
figure all this out.
I have a tendency to talk with my hands a lot. Since I am a pretty good sized
dude HIGH arm movements can be intimidating. Juggler suggested that I talk with
my hands all I want but to keep them at waist level and below. I did it and it
seemed to work well.
On one occasion I was sarging a girl in a club with Juggler observing right
behind me and I accidentally raised my left hand up high quickly and I slapped
my left hand with my right while looking at Juggler and he cracked up laughing.
He also noticed I had a bad habit of "hen pecking", which is when she wants to
say to you something or you lean over to hear her better moving just your HEAD
over to her without the rest of your body. Juggler said to close the distance
whenever I have the opportunity. I did not interpret this advice correctly at
first and in the same sarge as the hand-slap Juggler observed that she was
really into me and liking my game but a little annoyed that I kept encroaching
on her by moving myself closer to her while keeping myself square. This was
another example of intimidating body language for a person my size. Instead,
Juggler said that the more intimate position I should move towards is hip-to-
hip. Juggler views physical closeness itself as actually more important than
At one point, Juggler and Stormwolf watched me sarge a Japanese girl on a mall
bench. She was into me but was a little embarrassed due to the language barrier.
She spoke softly and I "hen pecked" to hear her instead of scooting my whole
body towards her.
While sitting beside a woman you are sarging it's also good to be turned at an
angle that is towards her rather than straight ahead.
Juggler advises to keep your body trunk still while you talk, whether or not you
talk with your hands. If you do talk with your hands, make the hand movement
match up with your speaking delivery and move your head towards the person who
is talking whether it be your target, your wing, or someone in the group.
*** CONVERSATIONAL STRUCTURE ***
In my interpretation, the most important parts of Juggler's conversational
structure are the following:
1) Generating Value by Making Statements
A statement provides value, a question asks the other person to provide value.
You want to make mostly statements. In fact, we went for a few hours of sarging
and talking to people where we restrained ourselves from asking ANY questions to
Requests for information from others had to be phrased as a statement. Try doing
this for a long time, it will change your perspective on the issue tremendously.
Ultimately you want the target to express herself and you will run into some
situations where you do have to ask some questions to get that to happen but
it's best to limit it. Juggler explains it more fully in this post...
2) Management of Conversational Threads
Anything you talk about becomes a conversational thread. Conversational threads
can spin off in different directions and give rise to new ones.
Juggler recommends to let her interrupt you. Never fight her for the floor. If
you have to fight for the floor you don't deserve to have it at that point. If
she is talking, that means she is expressing which is what you want her to do
anyway. Also, the thread that is broken by the interruption is something you can
come back to later.
It's best not to force it.
This is something you can practice all the time even when you are not sarging
and it was something particularly helpful to me since Juggler mentioned the fact
that I am naturally a long-threaded conversationalist as one of my SP's. His
feedback was that the things I have to say are very interesting but they come in
long chunks that I tend to want to get across in their entirety and that
interacting with me can be tiring because of that.
One problem with using patterns is that guys become attached to and they always
want to finish them. Juggler encourages guys to give up those attachments. Being
experienced in SS, I can say that I am sure there will be times in the future I
will run some patterns for the hell of it if it fits the situation well but a
lot of times the girls are just not trying to hear any of that stuff and you
have to recognize that. Which brings me to my next point...
3) Noticing Her Reactions
Break up your stories. Give her a chance to react. Don't feel responsible for
her reaction. You should never feel responsible for her reaction. There is
really not many things that are really BAD reactions. In fact you should not
even need a reaction at all. When you make a statement you are just expressing,
she is free to react however, and you pay attention to her reaction and either
lead the convo or let her express depending on what is happening.
Part of the problem with using scripts and routines is that guys are looking for
some reactions they think they should get but they are not. They feel
responsible for the girl's reaction. If one script doesn't give them the
reaction they want, they'll run another and another. It is less like a dialogue
and more like a monologue.
Some beginners who I have talked to say to me "Juggler's Method seems like it's
just fluff." WRONG! Making strong statements about your observations and
reactions to the world is VALUE, not fluff. The tendency to think in this way
stems from a lack of experience and a belief on the part of some that anything
that is not a packaged and prepared routine is fluff. Those ROUTINES are what is
Your observations and reactions to the world make you human and THAT is why they
are value. Oh...and just so you know this, if you don't have observations of the
world you trust enough to express you may want to consider the possibility you
have serious self-esteem issues that are affecting your quality of life in an
adverse way, but the GOOD THING...is that it's easily and quickly corrected.
Very important realization: THERE CAN BE LULLS IN CONVERSATION!
It's okay. You don't have to fill it up with script, after script, after script
HOPING she approves of something you run by her. You say what you say from a
place of genuine deeply-held belief and you need nobody's approval for that
which you choose to share or express. Lulls are fine, just make sure that what
you DO say are value-stacking statements.
If you have a hard time coming up with strong statements at a particular time,
think about what you like and declare "I like (whatever)...". Get her attention
doing that and throw another statement down about it and watch her reaction.
4) Advancing Interactions at Conversational High-Points
Examples of Advancing Include:
- Introducing Yourself
- Closing Physical Distance
You want to do these things at high-points of enthusiasm in the interaction such
as laughter or enthusiastically agreeing on some point that was made, etc.
Many guys will, for example, introduce themselves at a low point in the
interaction or a lull in the conversation and that is a mistake. If you are in a
lull, you need to stack some value with statements and get back up to a high
point before you advance.
You can talk about things that are a little bit negative but try to put a
positive spin on it. Juggler caught me on this a few times. We'd be sarging and
I'd mention "I live in Portland, it's really just a small town with big
"What's GOOD about that, SexPDX?", Juggler would mention noticing the negative
connotation in my language.
"What's really cool about it is that you get the pleasant ambiance of a smaller
town atmosphere with large amount of people and larger city type of things to
do.", I would add.
6) Changing Topics
Really where you want to be is the feeling of being able to talk about ANYTHING.
Instead of DEEP rapport (talking in depth on ONE thread) what you want is WIDE
rapport (ability to talk about anything. You can test this by abruptly changing
topics to something totally different.
I was in a situation once this weekend where the chick was on a thread that was
hopelessly negative and I could not put a positive spin on it. I changed topics
right from bus bombings in Israel to bears totally out of nowhere and I pulled
*** LISTENING & PROVING YOU ARE LISTENING ***
To listen is not enough. You have to prove you are listening to her. A few ways
to do this.
1) Listen with a blank, still look.
Don't react to what she is saying until she is done. React to what is said in
the full context of the message.
Don't nod and go "Yeah, uh huh, I see" while she is talking because that comes
across as blindly agreeing and also that you are not even listening.
2) Amplify Her Reactions
Whatever reaction she has to something repeat it back to her in a way that
demonstrates an understanding of it. If it's a negative reaction, try to put a
positive spin on it. I just typed out several examples of this and none of them
are going to come across correctly in text, so I have give up.
That's a treat I guess will have to be left for the workshop.
*** AMOG SITUATIONS ***
Juggler was very good at confidently introducing himself to guys. Particularly
befriending peacocking guys. However, how to handle a particular AMOG intrusion
situation was he only major disagreement I had (and still have) with him all
Here is what happened...
Juggler opened who I thought was the hottest chick in the club and left me with
her while he went to find Stormwolf. Whatever Juggler said to her generated a
lot value quickly because I was IN when he left and he did so quickly. In clubs
you have to open with strong statements. Everything in the beginning has to be
nothing but VALUE, VALUE, VALUE or you will not get in and stay in.
Anyway, I talked to the HB for about ten minutes. Good interaction. I think she
was mainly just happy to be talking to a genuine person somewhere she would not
After a while a guy slightly shorter than me but we built approached us and held
a lime up to me. "Here he said," looking at the lime as though to suggest I take
it from him. I just looked him in the eye and didn't say anything.
"You should have this," he said, "you are a limey guy."
"Come again.", I said.
At that point the HB came between us, leaned her back against me and tried to
take the lime from him.
"I want the limey guy to have it," he insisted. I just smirked and looked at him
while shaking my head slowly. He walked away. I talked to the HB some more and
she introduced me to three of her friends so I had a 4-set going for a little
bit. After a while the HB I was originally talking to left and I mentioned the
lime situation to her friend who told me AMOG was her BF.
I talked to the HB for a while after the interaction with AMOG and she did NOT
mention that he was her BF. I think it's because he acted like such an ass that
she was embarrassed to admit it.
Juggler's take on this is that he would not have "fought" with the guy and
probably would have TAKEN the lime from him. Sorry, Juggler, bad move IMO. If I
had taken the lime from him he would have said, "There you go, buddy" and
shoulder-blocked me out. He was testing me to see I would let him punk me out
and I didn't stand for it. I would be really curious if there were a way to
recreate the exact same situation with Juggler in it instead of me how it would
have gone down but I have trouble seeing taking the lime from the AMOG as the
*** WINGSMANSHIP ***
Juggler's position on wingsmanship matched up perfectly with what I have always
done. Wings have to be invited.
I slipped up once on an escalator while he was sarging a chick and I jumped in
with a comment during a lull and Juggler reminded me to let him have his lulls.
While sarging in groups at the club, Stormwolf and I would check up on each
other and stand in the vicinity of the wing's group making it clear that we are
available to be invited IF we are wanted in the sarge at that time. If we are
not invited, then we assumed it was not necessary or convenient to invite the
wing at that time.
*** WORKSHOP REVIEW CONCLUSION ***
I was thinking of taking this workshop when I was much newer to seduction and I
am actually happy to have held off until now. I went in with enough game to
really get a lot out of it and I was able to seduce an HB in an airport
immediately afterwards for a lay. I do however, know guys who went in to
Juggler's workshop very new and it helped them a lot so no matter what your
level it is probably helpful.
The workshop is, like seduction itself, a cooperative effort. The participants
in the workshop have a lot to do with how it goes. Stormwolf and I knew each
other before the workshop and each had good skills. Having a newer guy along
would have made it a little different but it still would have been fun. If the
group were a larger one with a diversity in levels of experience (as Juggler
told me he has had in the past), I could imagine it would help a lot for some
more experienced guys to help Juggler in coming up with missions and exercises
for the newer guys to do. Also, Juggler himself is skilled enough to pretty much
open for anybody and have them be in at least for a while, or perhaps smooth it
out if needed.
The workshop rocks. Juggler is THAT good, delivers the goods, yadda, yadda,
yackidy shmackidy, whatever else you want to say....Hahaha!
Seriously, this is arguably the best $300 I have ever spent in my life. My game
was good before I got there but it is much more polished now.
I barely got back to Portland in time for class and walking around campus and
the way girls respond to me already is just a LITTLE different.
Also....dammit, Juggler! Now I can't even go to the friggin burrito hut down the
street without getting into some long drawn out conversation where people are
really interested in me. Geez, what have you done to me, man?!
*** LAY REPORT ***
The problem with Juggler Method LR's I can already see I am going to have is
that I have quite a bit of trouble actually remembering what was said at what
time. The reason for this is that it's a dialogue and not a monologue. The
chronological order of events becomes muddied in your memory when working to
recall an interaction where you were you had wide rapport and were in a state of
Nonetheless, I will do my best.
Juggler and I drove from Vancouver to Seattle where he would catch a flight home
at 11:30 pm. On the way down we talked to our mutual friend, PiQL about the
workshop and we talked with Wham while waiting to go through the border.
Having some time to kill in Seattle, we met up with my friend, Opus briefly.
I drove Juggler to the airport at about 8:30. I still had a hour drive ahead of
me and I was visibly exhausted from the intensity of the weekend.
I decided to chill with Juggler for a while inside before starting the drive
down. While Juggler was at the ticket counter I was walking back and forth by
people in a complete tired daze but still doing physical breaks, opening people,
etc. It was like I was running on pure muscle memory after a weekend of non-stop
Juggler and I sat down at the coffee shop and talked for a while before I
decided to go outside to smoke a cigarette. I invited Juggler to come with me
but he declined.
Standing outside Sea-Tac Airport on the curb of the baggage claim pull-in area I
saw HB SeaTac. The thing is, I didn't even approach her because she was hot. She
only looked like a 7 at first in her scarf and long coat but she was a 9 when
her clothes came off later! I approached her because I am now in the habit of
looking for openings rather than targets and I saw an opportunity for a cool
"I like the way you wear your scarf, vertically around the head like that....My
friend Juggler was in France recently and he told me that's they way the wear it
there....are you from France?"
We talked about travel and our experiences on our respective trips.
She lived in Seattle, just got back from the East Coast and had a friend who was
supposed to pick her up who she was having problems getting a hold of.
At one point I mentioned that I would think it would be cool to train sales
people, not because I like the WORK of sales but because I found the
interpersonal interactions aspect of it fascinating.
"You would be really good at that! Look how easily you can just walk up and talk
to strangers like me.", she said.
"REALLY? You think so? Thanks a lot?"
I find it works well to respond really enthusiastically to her sincere
compliments. When you compliment someone you kind of put yourself out there. I
personally like it when *MY* compliments are well-received and I know it. Let
her know she is making you feel good. It's almost like you are going DDB on HER.
At a high point in the interaction (laughter, I think) I SOI'd her with "I like
you". She started asking me a lot of questions about how often I come to
Seattle, etc. It was pretty clear she was into me. On top of that, knowing that
she was in need of a ride home, a !close seemed like a very likely outcome here.
I went to go find Juggler and tell him what was going on, but #closed her before
I left in case her friend came by and scooped her up while I was inside.
Upon finding Juggler, I gave him a run-down on the situation and he agreed that
she was into me. Juggler came down, and met her and talked very briefly before
bidding me goodbye to go catch his plane.
She went back to talking about her friend who she hadn't gotten a hold of in 2
"You must feel so stranded," I said as I closed distance hip to hip and started
kino, "but the good thing is that these situations get taken care of you can
feel comfortable knowing that it doesn't last and that it will be okay."
"So are you going to be my savior?"
"To tell you the truth I am very hard-pressed ever to play the role of a knight
in shinning armor but I will give it a shot this time."
On the way there she asked how Juggler and I knew each other and I told her the
story Juggler and I had been using the whole workshop which was Juggler's dad
used to date my mom.
I was so tired that it took me a really long time to remember where I parked my
truck. On the way out of the parking garage she kept saying she didn't know what
she would have done if it weren't for me. To which I responded C&Fishly, "I hear
that a lot, what would everyone do without SexPDX?"
She expressed concerns for my safety in driving back to Portland which I was
GENUINELY concerned about myself. I was making up my own lanes on I-5 on the way
to her house! She offered to let me sleep over at her place. I was quick to set
up a sort of poetic saving each other frame to by saying...
"Looks like you are saving me now."
"We are saving each other."
A few minutes after that I skipped the Delbert McClinton CD ahead to that song
He keeps sending me angels
Here they come a flyin'
He keeps sending me angels
To keep me from cryin'
He keeps sending me angels
Sweet and true
He keeps sending me angels
This whole "saviors of one another" frame complimented our matching state of
being tired from travel quite well.
We talked about just about everything on the way back. Family, spirituality,
past relationships, favorite movies, dogs, etc.
BTW, Juggler, I didn't actually ASK about her relationship situation but she
brought it up for me which helped.
Everything was going really well except for the fact that she was nervous
because the person who was supposed to give her a ride who she had not heard
from also had her kids. (She has a 6 YO and a 3 YO).
When we got back to her place she put on some tea for me and started setting up
the futon but I could tell she was nervous still. It was hard to tell if I was
going to be able to get her to relaxed to be sexual.
She went to take a shower and while she was in there I called Stormwolf and got
Juggler's cell phone number. I had hoped to catch Juggler while she was in the
shower and get some quick advice but he had evidently turned it off.
When she came out of the shower I saw just how hot her body was (which had been
obscured by a long coat and otherwise thick layered clothing before. Yummy!!!
All the sudden we hear a knock on the door and it's her friend dropping her kids
off. Turns out her phone had some problems or something so she didn't get HB
Anyway, everyone was happy to know each other was okay and the kids and HB
SeaTac were happy to see each other.
The friend chatted with us briefly and left.
It was strange because normally the kids being home isn't considered a GOOD
thing as far as !closing goes but here it definitely was!
I got in really good with her kids. They loved me. That never hurts.
At one point she pulled out some photos to look at and sat down next to me and
after several sarges where I was corrected on it, I am completely broken of the
hen pecking habit, I moved right in hip-to-hip.
Later on she went to put the kids to bed and that she would come out and talk to
She didn't come out after a few minutes so I assumed she fell asleep. At that
time I was too tired to give a rip.
However, I woke up at 6:am Monday morning and just reveled in the satisfaction
of having had my first night of sleep that wasn't on a floor and lasted for more
than 4 hours in days. HB SeaTac comes out and gets under the covers with me and
we have sex.
During pillow-talk/afterplay I said...
"I have something to tell you. I have been truthful with you about everything so
far...except for one thing. Juggler actually does have another job I didn't tell
you about. He teaches seduction."
I proceeded to tell her about the workshop, ASF, why I got into all this, the
whole nine yards. She found it interesting and was blown away by my honesty. But
said, "You didn't seduce me, I seduced you."
"You are right," I said, "You did. That was the idea."
I stopped by the local tavern to have a libation while waiting for traffic to
calm down. This was "Lobster Bisque" night and that sounded fine to me. As I
was finishing the last spoonful of the bisque... sopping up the last drops with
the awesome bread... this cute older blonde sat down next to me. She reminded
me of the "Hot Lips Houlihan" actor from M*A*S*H. Somewhat older but she is
still young and with an awesome set of double D's and baby got back (she brought
out the Sir Mix A Lot in me). So, I started out as she perused the bar menu...
Me: I highly recommend the lobster bisque.
Hot Lips: I know, it is wonderful... but too fattening.
Me: A woman as thin as you shouldn't have any thoughts about fat.
Hot Lips: Believe me, I'm not thin.
Me: Maybe if you remove your coat I can give a more accurate judgment.
Hot Lips: (opens it a little) Oh, take my word for it.
At this point, I take a slow and obvious perusal at her body... like a lion
gazing at a herd of gazelle. I spend a little extra time looking at her two
magnificent breasts, then as my eyes drop down I notice she sucked in her
stomach a little.
Me: No need to suck it in. My expert opinion is that you have the perfect body
for a night of wild love making.
Hot Lips: And what makes you an expert?
Me: Years of experience... delving deep, deep into the inner realms of the
Hot Lips: (smiles) That is nice to know.
Me: The problem is... beautiful women like you can't seem to tell the difference
between fat and curves. Curves are what make sex so much better.
At this point, she follows me down the path to some prurient conversation... but
when she becomes self-effacing I agree with her in cocky and funny style. She
did ask me some qualifying questions... most of which I gave her some well-
rehearsed answers to (that would only increase her curiosity). She tells me she
works as manager at the bank down the road and also that she is a single mom
with a teenage daughter (who is out of town with her dad for the week). Nice
little tidbit... that she'll be alone and needing some companionship, which I
work in with some weasel phrases.
Anyway, the conversation continued with the same cat and mouse... thrust and
parry... and it became clear it was time to either make my move or forever hold
my piece. So... I give her an intense, "I want to rip your clothes off and take
you right here on the bar" look, which she returns in kind... but then she says
(an obvious shite test):
Hot Lips: Why are you looking at me that way?
Me: What way? I can't see myself, so you'll have to describe it to me.
Hot Lips: (thinks a second) You have this look like you're waiting... like...
for the next word.
Me: Maybe I'm waiting for the word after that... or the second word... or the
Hot Lips: You are a very nice guy.
Me: No, I'm not. I'm a very bad boy.
Hot Lips: You seem to be very gallant. Very gentlemanly.
Me: When I was a little boy, my mother read this book to me... "The Story of a
Bad Boy" and each night she'd end her reading by telling me that I was that bad
Hot Lips: So you believe that?
Me: I think that, as you go deep inside... you can feel me... the way I am.
So she is giving me these smiles... moving in closer to me... with her pupils
getting wider and wider and wider. So now, I'm thinking this is an easy number
close at least... although she is giving me looks as if this may actually be an
Me: This is a good night to sit in front of your fireplace with a good bottle of
Hot Lips: I'm tired tonight. I think I'll go straight to bed.
I respond to that with raised eyebrow and gaze deep into her eyes. She smiles
and starts to lean toward me, but then looks away and I can tell she is mentally
rationalizing. I give her a line about being wild and passionate and how her
lips look as she knows how to kiss a man. She segues from there into a story
about when she was 18 she ran off from home and met some guy (probably the
girl's father) and then says that now she is older and she has to be responsible
(as a single mother) and mature.
Me: I could tell when I first met you... you had this wild passionate sensuality
Hot Lips: That was a long, long time ago.
Me: I can look deep... deep into your eyes and I can see that wild child. She
wants so desperately to come... play.
Hot Lips: (long pause... thinking) I know. She does. (thinks some more) I
really enjoyed this, but...
Me: But you'd rather be the 90-year-old woman in your rocking chair who has
nothing but regrets that she met this wonderful guy and failed to act on what
she knew in her heart of hearts to be what she truly wants to do.
Hot Lips: But... I have a boyfriend and he wouldn't be very understanding about
Me: I'm not applying for the boyfriend position.
Hot Lips: Then what... do you want to be friends?
Me: (I just smile and look from her eyes to her breasts to her thighs... and
back up again) I want Chef Lorraine to serve me a slice of her delicious fresh-
So now it is the moment of truth and she is thinking really hard... she looks
for a moment like she is about to pounce on me, but then she is obviously
rationalizing in her mind. She gathers her purse and says "it was nice..." and
as she leaves says, "I would, but... these things never work out. You know
So now, I'm wondering... next move.
Since she did tell me where she works I am thinking of calling... wondering if I
should go strait for arousal... punani... or if a different approach would be in
Doc (the following is an email exchange between Doc and a friend regarding a
situation on which his advice was requested):
Friend: The story starts last summer - A friend of mine and I meet these two
women. They are both attractive but I notice one of them is in the upper levels.
We talk for awhile and they have to go somewhere but the one I wasn't interested
in gives me her cell number and tells me to call in about an hour and they'll
come and join us. Long story short, they didn't get together with us. I called
once more maybe a week or two later and nothing came of it.
About a month ago (which is about 5 months after getting the number), I notice
this cell number. Since the choice is to toss it or try it, I call it. Anyway, I
speak with the one who I wasn't interested in and have a good conversation,
during which she tells me where the other one works. I dropped in there and
found her. At first she was a bit hesitant, but when I told her where I met her
and about her friend, she started talking. A lot. She talked for about 45
minutes until her break. I notice no bs in our conversation, very straight
forward and down to earth which was a little unexpected given her hotness level.
As she's leaving she tells me to call her friend and get her number from her. I
ask if she has email and she gives me an email address.
I send an email and get no response. A week or two later, I decide to drop in to
the bar that the other one works at. The target girl told me she hadn't spoken
to the other one for a few months as the other one needed a break due to some
personal issues (I gathered they had some fight). But she had told me that they
had been close friends for 10 years and that she missed her and that I should
tell her to call her. So I have a reason to go to the bar, to do a good deed.
I arrive, and she immediately recognizes me and is very nice to me. It turns out
that they had spoken, and, by total coincidence, the target girl was coming over
that night to see her. Anyway, when she arrives, I go and talk with her. Again,
she does most of the talking, giving me great eye contact and a warm smile (she
mentions that she hadn't opened her email in a long time and hadn't seen what I
sent her). I decide not to overstay my unplanned welcome and tell her I have to
leave after somewhere between a half hour and 45 minutes. She asks if I really
have to go and I say yes, and leave. But this time she gives me her cell number
and tells me that she's working for the next 10 days and to call her after and
we'll get together.
Anyway, after 8 days I call her and she tells me about this disaster with her
home (she owns her own home and she's working long hours to pay it off faster)
where it has to be torn down and rebuilt and no one wants to take responsibility
so she's going to get a lawyer. So she's really not in a great mood and the
conversation reflected that. Before she told me all this, I told her something
which was a bit more personal in tone than anything we had up until then
actually said to each other - I said that I had been thinking about her. That I
was thinking about the way she looked at me when she talked to me, and the way
she smiled at me. I thought I heard her thank me for these comments but I have
been wondering if my timing was bad.
She made some reference to having my number and said something to the effect
that she'll call me when things straighten out. Anyway I call her up a couple
days later and she lets the cell phone ring, sees the number on the caller id
and disconnects. This happens twice and I haven't called back.
Of course I haven't heard from her (it's been two weeks now) so I was thinking
of sending this email. Not sure it's a good idea, but I thought I would run it
It's a funny thing about cell phones. If you call when they are shut off, you
get a recorded message instantly without hearing any ringing. So if it rings,
you know that it is actually on.
I know this because the first time I called your cell phone, it was off and I
got a recorded message right away. The next time I called (from my home phone,
which is unlisted so it appears as "blocked number" on your caller I.D.), it
rang for awhile and then went dead. So I figured that you are screening your
calls and hanging up on the ones you don't take, and I realized that you are not
accepting calls from blocked numbers.
The next time I called you, I used my cell phone so that you would see a number
appear and you answered. I was sorry to hear that you are having problems with
your house and this has obviously not been a good time for you.
I thought about that and wanted to speak to you again so I called you back on my
cell phone a couple of days later. As you know, you let that ring, then
disconnected. I called back, and the same thing happened - so now I understand
that my cell phone number is on your list of calls that you aren't taking.
We don't know each other very well but I am not the kind of man that makes calls
that are unwelcome - so you won't have to be watching your phone for my calls as
I won't be calling you again.
If you give some thought to the few moments we did spend together and want to
call me when your life gets back to normal, I would welcome your call. I
personally did enjoy those moments.
If I don't hear from you, good luck and wish my best to (your friend),
Doc: Funny thing about girls: one of the reasons we can't figure out what they
want is because they can't figure out what they want. So here is this chick who
meets an interesting, warm, guy: maybe even a "nice" guy who helped her patch
things up with her friend. So a part of her is saying "Here is a nice guy that
I could really like", and the other part is saying "I don't know what to do in
this situation, I'm not attracted to nice guys even though I know I should be."
She's hot, so the usual paradigm she lives in is "Guys chase me." That's her
reality. She is not in control with a guy who walks out on her - she may have
never even experienced this before. You may even have hurt her feelings because
she felt rejected. So she has to get you chasing her again, to prove to herself
that she can, and she succeeds. So now you're playing her game again.
The e-mail draft is accusatory and will make her defensive. She will think "This
guy is a jerk, who does he think he is, I choose who I talk to blah blah". But
that is her rationalization. She created this reality. You were a nice guy
before she misbehaved but now she has to rationalize to herself that you were a
jerk all along and that she did the right thing to flush you from her life. Do
not play into this little drama she is creating. All these feelings she is
creating in you are her way of taking back control. She is making you behave in
a way that is congruent with her reality not yours. Don't do it.
What carrot can you dangle in front of her? What do you offer that she wants??
How can you take control of this situation again?
What if you fuck her friend? It's powerful punishment. What if you tell her you
have a great friend that she should meet? She's not really your type but you
thought she would make a good friend. And to show her you are sincere, you are
willing to introduce her to your friends because she doesn't really qualify for
How can you be different? Right now you are totally in her paradigm and are not
even registering on her radar. She will brush off this e-mail because its
totally expected. She hurt you and now you want to hurt her back by scolding
Chew on it. It's much clearer with a little distance.
(Comments culled from a long post on Mystery's Lounge. These about
fractionating with humour and being cocky and funny:)
Roll up on her, make funny faces, smile and hit her, and wrap your arm around
her .. "you are CUTE.. I think that you'll make a NICE new GIRLFRIEND.. hahaha,
hey WAIT.. I need a girl who can cook.. you can't?? OK, we're broken up..
actually wait, you DO smell good.. very alluring.. actually WAIT!! Do you eat
SOAP??? Oh man, we are BROKEN UP.. no no, definitely broken up.. you are BAD..
hahaha, for sure!!.. are you adventurous?? cause I can't even hang with you
unless you're adventurous.. mmm,. that does sound adventurous.. alright we can
hang, but I can't take you to my COOL places because you might just be PG-13
adventurous, not R-rated adventurous.. really, you did X-ACTIVITY?? hmm.. OK
maybe you're cool.. oh man, imagine if we ran away and did X-ADVENTURE (make up
a 1-2 minute Bonnie & Clyde type adventure) together.. and we could STEAL this
X-STUFF (whatever is in front of you) and SELL IT.. No?? OK I'm taking THIS
then! (grab HER shit, and she'll WRESTLE you for it).. haha, OK fine, I won't do
that.. I have a better plan.. I need a RICH girl.. are YOU?? no?? do you have
cable though?? SWEET, I can watch daytime SOAPS.. NICE!! OOOOOH MAN, we are
getting MARRIED RIGHT NOW.. Will you MARRY ME??? OMG I am SO SERIOUS, we'll get
married RIGHT NOW.. (then have a person in the room pretend to MARRY the two of
you, and you exchange items together like rings or something, and kiss AT LEAST
on the cheek)... OK AWESOME, now that we're married I can DIVORCE you and live
in your house and watch DAYTIME TV..
What this does is ENGAGES her sexually, and then DISENGAGES her sexually, over
and over and over. It's not like if you say "you're my new girlfriend.. let's
make plans to go out.. let's make plans to be together.. let's be together",
which would be PULL, PULL, PULL, PULL. She would RESIST that strategy 9 times
out of 10. By doing PUSH PULL, her limbic brain is ENGAGED, but then DISENGAGED
before she has a chance to RESIST. The result will be like a FISH, who you reel
in, let fight and let out slack, reel in more, let fight more, reel in more,
etc., etc., etc., etc..
Some basic strategies, on how to RE-ASSERT the hook-up/non-date frame:
WHEN YOU SEE HER, INITIATE PLAYFUL KINO IMMEDIATELY:
-run up and spin-hug her (credit no9)
-roll up, take her right hand with your right hand, her left hand with your left
hand (so your hands are x-crossed), and TWIRL her around
-roll up, and shake hands, but pull your hand UP and TWIST your wrist, so she
has to spin (credit Craig)
-sneak up, and tap her wrong shoulder so she looks around for you.. then sort of
bump her when she sees you
-steal something from her and make her wrestle you for it
-flick something at her so she attacks you
TRY TO TAKE HER TO AN EXCITING PLACE, THAT IS COST FREE.. NOT EVEN ONE CENT:
-find a strip with sexy/outrageous clothes, and try them on and tease each other
-meet her at a park, where you can play frisbee or rollerblade or ice skate, and
you can tackle her
-teach her one basic-simplistic mentalism illusion, go around FOOLING people
-have a funny adventure together.. go around asking where you can find a cheap
hotel as a joke (credit Dreamweaver I never actually tried this yet, but think
it would be good for chicks with a CERTAIN type of outgoing personality)
NEVER LET THE DATE GO "LJBF"-FEEL. IT ALWAYS HAS TO BE CHARGED IN SOME WAY.
-try to avoid long drives before you've had sex, unless you're good at macking
-try to have her meet you somewhere, where you can start gaming her IMMEDIATELY
-if you're just meeting her at a club, and she agrees to go home with you, don't
let her get away from you or disengage her emotional states.. She will go back
to her friends, be dissuaded, and flake.
-if you pick her up at her house, attempt the "NEWSPAPER INK CLOSE", explained
later in this post.
-the SECOND you see the interaction going QUIET or STALLING, tickle her, steal
something, do ANYTHING to keep it charged at ALL COSTS. Stick your tongue out at
her, -whatever-.. do SOMETHING
-a GREAT strategy for when you STALL, is to use the "awkward pause" as a time to
PHASE SHIFT. Just look DEEP into her eyes. She'll say "what... whaaaaaat..", and
you just look at her al confident and knowingly, then either project sexual
state Gunwitch style, or run a phase shift ROUTINE.
-as an absolute LAST RESORT, have some gimmicks prepared. AVOID THIS, but if its
massively stalling, it can provide FODDER to neg her and tease her with, when
she discloses certain things about herself throughout the course of the
-**do things that CONFUSE her, such as saying she can't have you, and kissing
her. Saying she's a "DORK" or "DWEEB", and tickling her.
USE FRACTIONATION TECHNIQUES:
-when you drop a mega-bomb pattern on her, step back and let the experience SOAK
IN.. don't push her over the edge and make yourself come across INGENUINE
-constantly go BACK and FORTHâ€¦ be a STATE MANIPULATION MASTER.. a fucking PUPPET
MASTER.. push her through states like a fucking PRO.. OBSERVE when she's at a
boiling point, and do SOMETHING ELSE.. go back and forth, back and forth.. keep
her on her toes.. don't be predictable and run a 2 hour patterning session, or 2
hours of C&F.. don't let yourself into a RUT of fluff talk.. go back and forth,
left and right, up and down.. have STRATEGIES on how to do that..
-if absolutely necessary use stuff, like CPowles shit about "all my
relationships start passionately" to REFRAME the traditional-dating mentality.
Make it clear that you want things "NATURAL", and that you don't appreciate
"society dictating your actions, and that you go in with NO AGENDA, and just let
whatever happens happen.. does SHE have an agenda??? :)" Follow this with
tickling and such, to keep her IN STATE. Still, this is to be avoided, since it
is PREFERABLE just to seem MYSTERIOUS and that you don't JUSTIFY yourself. It's
actually better to just have a knowing look, and NOT REACT to her bullshit.
Still, this doesn't always work, so fall back on these strategies.
You should always be doing SOMETHING to bring yourself closer to your goal.
Teasing, touching, subtly demonstrating your excellence, connecting deeply in
rapport, projecting a sexual state, leading, playing hard to get, confusing,
playfighting, conspiring together, stimulating, pausing awkwardly to show your
absolute comfort in your own reality, having fun, etc., etc., etc.. SOMETHING
that is moving you to the goal. Eventually, when you're GOOD, you'll do these
things NATURALLY, without much thought. I'm PART WAY there, so I still have to
do them CONSCIOUSLY oftentimes. But a lot of them I just do NATURALLY now.
>Mark B: I believe that there are basically two ways to show a woman we find
appeal in her. The first which virtually everyone either does or has done is to
compliment her, touch her a lot, smile a lot and generally kiss her ass and make
a great effort to try and please her. Highly AFC behaviour strictly on its own.
Maximillian Hell: But isn't kino essential? Doesn't Alphahot say "kino early and
often?" It seems an important part of Gunwitch's style, for instance, and in the
style of virtually everyone else.
I think you may be right about smiling. My PUA mentor suggests that what might
be hurting my game the most is that I seem too eager. I am puzzled by this and
could only conclude that while I am overall pretty cool acting, I tend to smile
too much. I tend to smile a lot in all circumstances with lots of people.
I find it hard to suppress my enthusiasm for a woman, even though it may be
hurting my game, that is why I am interested in Gunwitch's supersexual
aggressive game, although it is not particularly practical right now (I have to
spend almost all my time on campus these days--don't shit where you eat). In
opposition to David, who says you should jack off before PUing, so that you will
not seem too eager, Gunwitch says to avoid jacking off, so that you will give
off an even more aggressive sexual vibe. Upon my very hurried perusal of his
article on fastseduction, I have the tendency to think that he is mostly doing a
form of the numbers game these days, not that there is anything wrong with that.
> Swinggcat wrote: Then I will ask them about the craziest place they ever had
sex The reason I "can" is that I have already gotten them to commit to being
adventurous and spontaneous, so, through the principle of commitment and
consistency, they have to be consistent with what they have committed to.
Next, she starts giving my bi girl a lap dance-- and the next thing I know, the
two girls are making out. They want to do a threesome but I am not down for two
reasons: One is that I sense the dom could cause problems; and two, is that Rick
told me that it is dangerous to do a threesome with girls you have not already
fucked solo. Rick told me that this is a good way to get excluded from the
threesome. When I get home, there are messages from her saying that her and her
bi dom fem friend want to come over. But I do not call her back. I need to fuck
her solo first.
Christos: What happened to all the adventurousness and spontaneity that you
constantly screen for? Does it not count for you? Don't you practice what you
> Swinggcat: Next, we decide to go to the Standard Lounge (this is a very
trendy, difficult to get into Hollywood lounge). Surprisingly, they let us right
in. So we walk inside and it is fucking unbelievable: Hef is there with all his
girlfriends and there are more 10s per square inch than any club or lounge I
have been to in a long time.
Christos: Sounds a bit like shooting fish in a barrel really. I reckon that any
enthusiastic newbie could do well in a situation like this.
> Swinggcat: Some friends of mine invite me to go to Las Palmasa trendy LA
nightclub. I decide to meet them at the club. I show up to the club solo. Since
I am there after ten, the line to get in is horrendous. And to make matters
worse, they are only letting girls in.
Christos: Fuck!?! Why can't I find clubs like this? Over here the national male
to female ratio is already 117 to 100, (try doing the math on a population of
more than a billion!) and all the clubs and bars are way above this.
> Swinggcat: At this point she starts kissing me passionately. It was getting
late, and I hadn't seen Caliboy, Morpheus, or Rick (and his driver) in hours.
So, I said, "Wait here" and I left her to go find the boys (huge mistake). I
come back a half hour later and she is gone, so, I leave the club.
Christos: Why should we take any of the earlier advice seriously when Swinggcat
goes and does stupid stuff like this?
> Swingccat: Boys, this is how the game is really played.
Christos: Well it might be if you go clubbing on Sunset Strip and have your own
jacuzzi but things are actually quite different in the real world.
Here is something that might be a bit more useful if you don't happen to go
clubbing in Hollywood.
I have always been a big one for toys, anything from novelty lighters to
practical joke type gags. Anything that lightens up the atmosphere and attracts
plenty of attention always helps in pick up situations. Recently, I got a
digital camera and it has to be the best pick-up toy ever. Once you start taking
pictures, even a simple night out becomes a major celebration. Grab a couple of
HBs, have the bartender do his flashiest Lamborghini and immediately you are the
center of attention, a perfect launchpad for any Mystery type routine that you
I chose a Panasonic, partly because I like the non-geeky design and partly
because I got a free life-size Ayumi Hamasaki as part of the deal, but since
then I have seen an even better model in the hands of a fellow PUA. Not sure
what brand but it has a reversible lens so that you can take pictures of
yourself, and your target(s) while still being able to see the image screen.
If you can get a couple of girls to kiss each other in a club then just wait
until you see what they will do when there is a camera around. Expect flashing
and lap dancing just for starters. Please post here the details of whatever
depravities you can persuade random females to perform for the camera.
Jeff: Chatting with HB and Wicca question
I've been meaning to buy a pentagram because I heard it wards off evil spirits.
Yesterday, I went out looking for this store that sells them but couldn't find
it (I only knew the cross streets). Well my luck has been going so bad lately,
especially with women, (I can't even get laid when the girl wants to fuck me)
that I drew a pentagram on my chest when I was not able to buy one. So I come to
school to use the computer expecting good things to happen. Well for the first
time in five years I kind of get caught downloading porn on the computers here.
I was watching milfhunter.com and one of the lab workers comes up to me and says
"what ever your doing turn it down because we can hear it at the desk." I
couldn't believe this because I
was of course wearing headphones and the desk is like 30 ft away. And then later
this crazy chick who I almost went out with comes in. This is the chick who
wanted to fuck but I chose not to when she started acting nuts. So those are
some bad stuff that happened while I had the pentagram on me but then something
pretty cool happened. I was in a chat room and this girl asked the room if any
guys wanted to chat. I IMd her even though she didn't have a pic. This is the
jay1991: lets chat
jay1991: tell 3 things about urself ur proud of?
shiloh: lol nothing really
jay1991: theres nothing about urself ur proud of?
jay1991: u must hv some major issues
shiloh: lol i mean i do have some issues cause for my
parents i can do nothing right, i mean i'm in college
and i'm proud of that i guess
jay1991: u cant do anything right?
shiloh: not to them....i mean everything i do is wrong
jay1991: is their approval important to u?
jay1991: so if they started recognizing ur good
qualities more that would really make u feel good huh?
shiloh: but they were proud of me till my dad saw some
pics that were taken of me, and now they like disowned
shiloh: don't be sorry it's not your fault, i let the
person take the pics cause i needed the money so it's
my own fault
jay1991: what did u need the money for?
shiloh: to pay some bills
jay1991: how did ur parents find out
shiloh: the guy put them on the internet and my dad
shiloh: i only took 3 pics and 2 are bad but the other
jay1991: how old ru?
shiloh: 19, but i had just turned 18 when i took the
jay1991: oh shit!
jay1991: im at the school computer lab at school
jay1991: this crazy girl who was stalking me just
jay1991: not really stalking but calling me like 5x a
shiloh: yeah i know how that goes...a bunch of guys on
campus saw my pics and now they won't stop calling and
jay1991: i don't think she saw me but shes sitting
real close to me
jay1991: she called me on valentines day and started
going off on me because i didn't wish her a happy
jay1991: we hadn't even gone out yet
jay1991: so i just hung up on her
jay1991: im like sitting real low so she won't see me
jay1991: luckily im also wearing a hat
jay1991: so ur parents are real strict huh?
shiloh: yeah, well not really but after they saw the
pics they were
jay1991: are u mexican?
jay1991: u don't hv any mexican in u?
jay1991: u want some?
jay1991: is that a yes?
jay1991: on what?
shiloh: what you look like
jay1991: my pic is at my profile
COUPLE MINUTES LATER
shiloh: so what do you want to talk about
jay1991: want some mexican in u?
jay1991: whats ur name?
jay1991: i used to go to a church name shiloh
shiloh: that's cool
jay1991: ive never heard a person named that tho
shiloh: really? I've only known two other girls with
the name Shiloh
jay1991: yeah ever since ive moved to texas ive met
more girls with names i NEVER heard of
jay1991: can i just call u shi?
shiloh: yeah everyone else does
jay1991: ok shi!
jay1991: my names jeff but u can call me big daddy
shiloh: haha i'll call you jeff
jay1991: oh all right:(
shiloh: I don't know you well enough to call you big
jay1991: what do u want to know?
shiloh: Well anything...where are you from, what do
you do for fun, do you have any brothers or
jay1991: ok shi
jay1991: Im fm the midwest
jay1991: i like to work out
jay1991: i hv a sister and a gay brother
jay1991: now will u call me big daddy?
shiloh: lol why??
shiloh: don't you want to know anything about me?
jay1991: well i wanted to know 3 things about urself
that ur proud of but u hv too many damn issues
shiloh: well i do have some stuff i'm proud of
shiloh: let see...1. i'm in college 2. i have a good
job 3. i'm a single mother and doing a good job at
raising my daughter
jay1991: whats ur job?
shiloh: I work at the college and they pay for my
school. I mean it's a good job and helps me make sure
I have money for my daughter
jay1991: what school?
jay1991: is that in austin?
shiloh: no it's in XXXXXX
jay1991: how far is that fm houston?
shiloh: pretty far
jay1991: so i guess i won't be able to put some
mexican in u tonite huh?
shiloh: nope not tonight
jay1991: what a jip!
shiloh: how do you know that you'd even want to...you don't even know what i
look like..i could be like really fat and ugly or something
jay1991: i don't think so and looks aren't everything
jay1991: one thing ive learned fm living in houston
for 5 yrs
jay1991: is that beauty is common
shiloh: good answer lol
ACTUALLY I FIGURED IF SHE HAD SOME DIRTY PICS ON THE
INTERNET SHE COULDNT BE THAT BAD
jay1991: but ppl with a great energy
jay1991: and a great attitude
jay1991: and a good outlook on life are rare...
jay1991: and there worth working to get to know better
shiloh: very good answer
jay1991: so if ur not mexican what ru?
jay1991: thats cool
jay1991: im only half mexican
shiloh: i would show you a pic but you'd have to
download it so i guess i can't
jay1991: y cant i down load it?
shiloh: oh well i didn't know if you could or
not...i'll send it to you if you want
jay1991: cool jay***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]
jay! 1991: how secretive ru on a scale of 1 to 10?
shiloh: ummm 5 or 6
jay1991: well i don't mean to be too intrusive....
jay1991: but if u were to think about relationships
u've had in the past what qualities do u think u would
b most important for a future relationship?
shiloh: honesty, i've never been with someone that
hasn't cheated on me
jay1991: well i know the feeling
jay1991: it hurts a lot when some u care about betrays
shiloh: yes it does
shiloh: i sent the pic
jay1991: ok hold on
jay1991: got it
MY JAW DROPPED WHEN I SAW THE PICTURE! SHE WAS HOTTER
THEN I EVER EXPECTED!!!! BEAUTIFUL EYES, BLONDE HAIR
AND NOT AN OUNCE OF FAT AND THE PIC WAS FROM THE SIDE
ABOVE THE WAIST AND SHE WAS LOOKING TOWARDS THE CAMERA
AND WASN'T WEARING A TOP AT ALL BUT HER ARMS COVERED
jay1991: I wish i were a tear
jay1991: i'd BEGIN in ur eyes...
jay1991: GROW on ur cheek..! .
jay1991: and DIE in ur lips.
shiloh: hey i gotta go, i gotta go work with my horses
jay1991: oh thats a good one
jay1991: never heard that one before
shiloh: heard what? I really do gotta go work with my
horses, i have 3 horses and i have a rodeo on thursday
jay1991: ok ok
jay1991: is there a number u'd feel comfortable with
me calling u at?
shiloh: that's my cell
shiloh: but i'll talk to ya later...bye
jay1991: bye shi!
jay1991: ur gonna add me to ur buddy list too right?
shiloh: right, bye
jay1991: hey one more question
jay1991: ur not one of these girls who gives out her
number then when the guy calls u always say ur to busy
to talk, are u?
shiloh: nope that's not me i'll talk when you call
jay1991: ok hv fun with ur horses
shiloh: i will, bye
jay1991: bye shi
Questions? Comments? I really want to hook up with
this chick! Does any one have any advice?
I have a recurring problem with guys that try to interfere with me just speaking
with women. What will happen is that some guy sometimes will subtly cut in front
of me with their back facing me, trying to block me from speaking to the target.
Once an hb's brother did this to me and last night some guy who came in with a
girl (maybe they were dating} "gave me the back". I noticed that when other guys
spoke with her that this dude did not resort to this beahvior.
I also let a guy smother a woman I really liked with kino this summer, and he
eventually got the girl at my expense. Me and this guy (very much a wolf in
sheep's clothing) are on the same sports team, so next time I have to deal with
him even though I resent him. This one really hurt because the hb was showing me
IOI's. Another time I was talking to an hb and a guy who she was friends with
started patting her on the ass which disrupted me getting in my opener. This is
happening with frequency whenever I get IOI's, and it's starting to upset me and
get me pissed off. Part of it though, is that with me paying more attention to
people'subtle reactions I am noticing these little things to block me from
conversing with women
I am an engaging talker (pattterns, stories help) and when women show a look of
interest on there faces, the male cb's come out of the woodwork. Also, I am good
looking so that immediately puts guys on alert. I notice that if I just ignore
the guys they just seem to respond with more rudeness.
I have tried befriending the male, but it hasn't worked. As a recent example, I
was talking to a female who I wasn't even interested in. Before speaking to her,
I had talked to her husband for a while, and he seemed cool. I spoke to her and
the husband became a jerk after awhile. I firmly confronted him, but I think
everyone around me could sense my inner state of anger. I know Gamemaster
probably doesn't mind confronting people, but I had this lingering anger for a
few days which screws up your state.
I have a right to talk to whomever I please. I won't be talking to married women
anymore, but the problem is now I am getting gun shy about approaching anytime I
see a dude around and in a way it seems to be affecting my overall esteem.. I
thought about just politely calling guys on their behavior, but I don't know.
You would think women would find this possessiveness annoying, but it's almost
like they want to be controlled. Anyone who has any thought on this, let me
know... I am sick of being brushed aside.
I watched Blind Date recently and Rocco is quite the character. He looks like a
comic book caricature of Sylvester Stallone. He had a bizarre affected voice,
giant bushy asymmetrical tweezed eyebrows, and an even stranger looking beard.
He started out his date wearing pj's sunglasses and bunny slippers, and took a
change of clothes (bright red satin shirt) with him. His m.o. was outgoing,
outrageous, cocky funny and always sexual/playful kino from the get go. He
sarged every chick that was within range of him throughout the entire date. His
date playfully bitched about it, but it was obvious that she loved it. The
chick's assessment after the date (there was kissing) was that she wanted to go
out with him again so she could find out if she liked him or hated him. Trust
me...she liked him.
Interesting...leave the chick baffled and confused and she NEEDS to come back
for more. Amazing.
The other 3 dates were interesting too. Only one other guy used some of "the
stuff" (some mild sexual references) "what turns you on" "I like receiving and
inflicting some pain during sex...", but nothing special otherwise...he smiled a
lot, and exuded confidence, and talked a hell of a lot about himself. He got a
number close and ioi for a second date. I should also mention that he burped a
lot in public and bragged about it, and had really big goofy looking teeth.
Confidence, the right attitude, and an outcome orientation sure go a long way.
The third guy went out with a swimsuit model who had game and attitude and he
wussed on her. He had big muscles, washboard abs and perfect hair, teeth,
clothes, and good manners. In the pre-interview he said that he was basically
waiting for the right girl to come along and whined about why couldn't a chick
do the work for once and ask him out and pursue him. If he spent 10% of his gym
time learning about what works,and what definitely doesn't, maybe he'd have a
clue. They even got naked together in the sauna after taking a hot tub together.
Guess what.... she basically called him a pretty boy to his face, and he did
nothing to prove her wrong. he wussed......he pretended that he was not
interested in her....no close....
The last guy was destroyed by his date. He also had nice clothes, a good body, a
good job, money and manners. In his pre-interview, he explained that he had a
dark brooding side in addition to his "bad boy" side (yeah, right), and he
whined that he hates playing games.
"Hates playing games"...just what species did he think he was going out on a
date with? A carp? I call him "Borezilla". He played out the poor me loner type
moody serious dude.... she crushed him like a bug....fun stuff. she admitted
after the date that she deliberately tried to push his buttons because he was a
It was interesting that 3 of the 4 chicks were blatantly sexual and 2 of the
guys were total wusses. The sex was there waiting for them only to be taken
What I saw with my own eyes.... absolute physical PROOF that looks,
manners,clothes, money,straight teeth, and a respectable" job, don't count for
much without a confident, outgoing playful/fun attitude. Add some techniques to
the mix and you're sure to be a successful PUA.
|cliff’s list advertisment section
|Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are
just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links
to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take
over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such
as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product
anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going
at no extra cost to anyone.
One of the best
places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to
get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book. David (who posts here under the name
"Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend
that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed
Seduction» seminars. His posts here have been among the most outstanding
contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly
Ron Louis and
David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their
Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good
stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from
the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning
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good ideas from this set of tapes.
Comments on this
product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have
been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible
reviews and "flames" from alt.seduction.fast, I decided to make a decision for
myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product
and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple
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After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen
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person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for
some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to
anything I have seen in the past. At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I
have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than
I would expect to see from any other site.
Not only does this
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NOT REVIEWED YET:
Here’s another one
which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails
to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU
Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?
has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.
This one also
looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.
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the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and
nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.
A course by Jian
Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.
Arte’s New Sex
Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he
demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick,
Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.
Check this out.
|cliff’s free plugs section
|Cliff’s Comment: The following are all
recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back
here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up —
from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of
weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):
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