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No matter how fat or toothless or wrinkly or stinky I become
3/26/03 11:21:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time

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Cliff's List Website
http://www.cliffslist.com/

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list
is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also,
as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.

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Style (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author - the
comments from others in this discussion below are also reposted with their
permission):

I had a really interesting time last night: four *closes. Of those, three I felt
WANTED me. But either my game faltered at the last minute, or it's just a matter
of waiting. I'd like some opinions.
PART ONE: THE PERSONALS
Inspired by Dkonstrukt, I've been trying the personals. My photo is not posted,
but my profile is fun and challenging. I sent out about four emails. Got
responses from two. Once I sent out my photo, one flaked and one kept emailing.
I did lots of ball busting by email (using elements of the Dkonstrukt/David D
email routine), and, as soon as she started asking me dumb fluff questions to
"get to know me first," I turned the tables and made her qualify herself (using
Ross J's "name three qualities" line). The great twist here is that I told her
that she wouldn't get my number until she earned 15 points. The points were
added and subtracted depending on whether I liked what she said in the emails,
how she described herself, etc. Once we exchanged #s, she said, "I've never had
to work so hard for anyone's phone number before." Awesome!
Anyway, I met her for a quick drink tonight. I was pleased: she was a little
older, but very classy and attractive, an 8.5. Right away, she said, "You're
sexy." God, I love it. I was NEVER a good-looking guy who women found attractive
or complimented until about three weeks ago. Whatever I did to change my look is
working. It's the longer goatee, the head shaved clean all the time, and the
black boa/scarf, perhaps. And it's the realization that any guy can be a 9 if
they are willing to change themselves and their style without saying, "But
that's not me."
I told her that my place was across the street, and if she was good and promised
not to stalk me, I'd point out my balcony to her.
I did the Cube and blew her away. She rated its accuracy a 10. Her body language»
was SO leaning in to me, and she kino'ed me a lot. Whenever she asked screening
questions ("what's your longest relationship"), I'd bust on her for screening
and talk about how I do it to girls, too. I made my standards seem very high
(thanks Rio). Anyway, I was playful, funny, transitioned to sex (she loves
talking about it), and teased her for being attracted to me. I KNEW that she
wanted to fuck me. But, at the same time, she was stressed about work and her
INTERNAL PROGRAM would not let her fuck a guy right after meeting him out of the
personals. She also said something about wanting the anticipation when I tried
to instant date her for later that night.
I walked her to her car after an hour-long meeting, and we had an awesome make
out session, with our hands all over each other. I ALWAYS try to get feedback
from women for future reference. So I asked her when she first knew she wanted
to kiss me, and she said, "As soon as she saw me." (This is all new for me: I
was never good-looking until three weeks ago, LOL.) I KNEW she wanted to fuck
me, but I also knew that if I invited her upstairs, she'd decline. So I was in a
catch-22, and let her leave. But as we were making out, she said, "I HAVE to
cancel my plans tomorrow." So, my plan is to invite her over to "play" (her
word) tomorrow, then for the best sushi of her life, and then back to my place
again to watch Arte's New Sex video (I mentioned it to her).
PART TWO: REAL LIFE
After, I went to a concert at a small club. Arrived alone. The first approach is
always the hardest, because it is forced. You have to FORCE yourself. And this
is hard for me. I'm not an approach machine like Paps or Devilhimself or
Getsome, though it is the approach machines who learn the quickest.
I spotted the HOTTEST girl there. A tall, leggy blonde: a total 10. She walked
by, and then turned around and said, "Style." It turns out it's a girl I met a
year ago (early in my sarging days), and went out with once. I posted an old FR
on being too chicken to kiss her at the time. Anyway, she had her hair dyed
blonde with extensions, and was just smoking. Only problem is she has a very
flat personality: doesn't show emotion. She was with an UG, so I demonstrated a
new trick for the UG where I break a pencil in half with a dollar bill. Only I
FAILED! Very embarrassing. But I #closed the 10 anyway.
Now I felt good. I noticed a tall girl with tattoos and dyed platinum red hair,
and a nice body in tight black clothes. I just used a lame opener about the
band, and then went into cold reading, telling her that she was visual, telling
her she was probably clumsy as a child, and negging her for being a tweaker who
probably stays up all night making paintings by glue-gunning dried macaroni to
canvases. I pulled her into the corner for a psychic reading, and felt that it
was on for a *close. She said that she was with the band, and they were all
getting in a limo and going to a burlesque club after. She was a stripper (or ex
stripper, or ex burlesque dancer, or something), and said she was "easily
hypnotized." I thought here, "Why did I never bother to learn hyper emperia?"
Anyway, in the limo was the entire band, and four Playmates, one of them a nasty
girl with huge tits and a gun in her purse. Another Playmate (with a hot little
body but an okay face) was drunk and all over the singer, giving him a lap dance
and giving head to his beer bottle. All I could think was, "Why didn't I bring
my camera?"
At the club, we joined the table of a singer in a pretty well known band. It was
crazy: women were THROWING themselves at this singer. And he's not even good
looking or charismatic or even THAT popular. But he went home with three women.
(Question: What do THOSE women want from him? And is there a way that WE can
provide that value WITHOUT being famous?)
I alternated my attention between the redhead and the bottle-sucking Playmate.
It was great to have them feel like they have to compete for my attention. The
Playmate kept playing with my hair and putting her hand on my chest, and I kept
telling her, "Hey, that'll be $30...No touching for customers, or I'll have to
throw you out..." etc. The redhead disappeared and the Playmate started sobering
up, so I built rapport with the Playmate, and talked a lot about spirituality. I
did Mystery's finger-closing script to test our connection, and she loved it.
The redhead returned and said she didn't feel well and was leaving. I told her
I'd walk her out. We walked up to a cab, and I spun her around and we started
making out passionately. I gave her the El Kabillo IOI test (where you press
your hard on against her leg and see if she lets it stay there or moves away,
LOL). I got the IOI, LOL x 2.
Here was a logistical problem: my coat was in the club, but I wanted to hop in
the cab with her. I mentioned running back to get it, but she said, "Let's save
something for tomorrow." Again, I KNOW she wanted it. But taking the logical
leap to her CONSENTING for me to go home with her was too much. What should I
have done here? (Anyway, she wants to see me tomorrow too.)
Okay, back in the club, a couple cute girls approach the pop star. I come in and
start flirting with them, and putting my scarf on them. No routines, just
cocky/funny and teasing. It's interesting, because one of them is taking off my
scarf like a striptease, and I tell her that she's doing it lamely. So she rises
to the challenge and does it sexy. It is SO awesome to tell girls they're bad
kissers, not doing something sexy, or give bad hugs. Because they will INSTANTLY
do it again, and do it as sexy as they can. I MUST challenge women on their lack
of sexiness more.
One of the girls, a small Asian, asks me if I'm gay. I say, "no," but then I
remember Craig's line and say, "Yes, I am. I've never kissed a girl before." She
laughs, and a stripper nearby who knows the Playmates actually thinks I'm
serious and offers to kiss me. I decline (she wasn't that hot in the flesh, and
it seemed too deceptive). Anyway, the Asian girl and I flirt a little more, and
then a little tonguedown goodbye. I didn't #close these girls, but I will see
them again because it turns out we have mutual friends.
Okay, finally, this leaves me and the bottle-sucking Playmate. She says she just
moved here and is living in a hotel in Hollywood. I tell her I'll give her a
ride home. She is pretty sober now and there's no kino or outrageous sexual
behavior. On the ride home, we massage each other's hands and talk about
spirituality. I invite her to come to the beach with me, but she's too tired.
(See, here is where my game falls apart: these invitations sound TOO much like I
want sex.) We pull up in front of her fleabag hotel and make out. Again, she
wants to see me tomorrow, but I can tell that I haven't really fired her sexual
buttons in quite the same way as the other girls I made out with today. Also,
she's a bit of a weirdo.
So, with three of these closes, I did not have an effective routine to go
somewhere to have sex. This means one of two things, IMHO. Either the women NEED
time (but here there's a risk of flaking later or not being in the same mood).
Or, more likely, I am doing this wrong. I am skipping steps. Or, perhaps the
problem is that when I go out, the KISS is my goal. So I'm strategizing and
angling for a make-out session, which I get. However, I am not, from the very
start of the sarge, working with the intent of taking her home. The problem may
be that I am thinking forward (get a #, get a *, take her home) instead of
backwards (try to take her home; if that seems unlikely, try for a *; if that
doesn't work, get her #).
UPDATE: The following day, the Personals girl came over at 10:30 p.m. We drank
wine, put on wigs and ran around on the beach, and then she came upstairs and
attacked me. Literally rode me till she orgasmed, kept telling me how sexy I
was, and then went home immediately after. It's interesting: all she wanted the
whole time was a FB to help her get off, but still had to "get to know me" and
screen me about my relationships first. Do you think she wanted to use me for
sex, but first wanted to make sure I wasn't using her for sex? Anyway, in the
morning, I decided to play into her frame and sent her an email "I feel so used
.... and I love it." Then I signed it: "Your Boy Toy, Style." She called me back
ten minutes later and invited me to come over for a quickie on my way home
tonight. So I have a new FB.
UPDATE #2: However, I was not able to stop by her house because I went out with
the redhead from the above field report tonight. It was really interesting. Like
the personals girl, she had already decided that she wanted me before I even saw
her the second time. So all I had to do was just be funny and interesting, and
be hot and cold with kino. (Thanks to what I've learned, I don't have to worry
anymore about TRYING to get some when I KNOW I'm already in.) We went to a club,
and ended up making out in a corner. Then we got in my car, and she wanted to go
to another club. The only part where there was any possible sticking point was
here. So to get to her house, I said, "Well, that depends. I'm sort of hungry.
What do you have to eat?"
And she said, "Cereal. I can make eggs. And salad."
So I said, "Cereal works."
And that was that. Went back to her house, drank, ate. I decided to give her
Riker's three rules while we were talking on her couch. And you should have seen
her face: she was listening SO intently, because she was worried that SHE wasn't
going to get some. LOL. Anyway, no LMR. It's interesting because if you just
look at her face up close, she's a 7. But if you add in the tattoos, the super-
peacocky clothes, the taut body, and the bright red hair in a Bettie Page cut,
she becomes a 9. And, it turns out, she's a burlesque dancer, doing old-school
stripteases.
Just like the Personals girl, she kept saying (before we were in bed) how
sensual I was and how she was impressed by my ass, and what a tight body I had
(thanks to dkonstrukt again here). I have NEVER had a girl compliment my ass in
my life! It is so exciting to truly feel like the prize, and have her keep
reminding you. This is SO new to me.
Finally, I got feedback afterwards. Here's what worked:
1. She saw me talking to someone she knew, so thus I was "okay." (social proof)
2. The instant cold-reading was what really hooked her. That's when she knew she
wanted to kiss me etc., when I told her so much about herself right away.
3. I forgot the rest.
Finally, both her and the Personals girl say that they WANTED me and were wet on
DAY ONE. So, I wonder, did they NEED time or could they have still been closed
on day one if I played even more solid game? (I sound like a runner now, trying
to shave one second off his 100-yard dash.)
So now I have two sexy new FBs--just because I decided to go out one night.

Zan:
Fuck, Style, that was a great report! Good for you on the looks mindset change.

Notice I said mindset change - not looks change. I don't really think you've
changed your looks all that much. But I do think you have changed your mindset
about it. In other words, you are now good looking because you feel you are more
good looking.

Sure you've started to shave your head more and done a few other cosmetic
changes, but that is not where your change to a good looking guy is coming from.
It is coming from your internal state. If you believe with all your heart that
you look damn fine today, it automatically becomes true to others. You
physically do become better looking to other people. You've done this internal
change very well. And now to others, you are a little hottie.

I can comment on this because I have always been a "pretty boy", and I did
modelling and shit. But that's not why I get laid like a rock star. Far from it.
In fact, I can't tell you how many guys I have known who women think are
extremely hot, but never get any play because they have no personality. I get
laid because I can talk damn well. And I project an aura of confidence and
genuine love of the ladies. Like Kooper, I simply adore women. All of that shows
and is very attractive to women. In my mind, it has nothing to do with my looks.

In fact I always joke with my buddies about my "retirement plan". Basically, my
plan is this: No matter how fat or toothless or wrinkly or stinky I become, I
will always be able to seduce women because I know how to say things that evoke
massive response from them. So assuming the preceding sentence is true, I'm
going to spend all my money living the high life, and then when I am old and
need someone to change my diaper, I will seduce some rich, 55 year old hottie to
take care of me.

That is my only-half-joking retirement plan.

Guys, take note. There is nothing that Style has done to become better looking
that you can't do too. Get off your waffle ass, get to the gym, maintain your
hair (or lack thereof) and nails and breath as best you can. Buy some cool
clothes (shoes are more important than you will ever know). Do all of that, feel
good, eat right, don't hurt the feelings of our little HBs too much, and you
will be a 9 like Style.

I am reminded of a phrase that I always whisper in a girl's ear when I am making
love to her:

"Her beauty was not made of shapes and forms, but shined from within like the
stars..."

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Zan (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
My success rate is very high with waitresses (as opposed to bartenders, who
don't have to linger). I love waitress scenarios. A waitress is a captive
audience. She has to be nice, or pretend to be. No bitch shield in sight. I go
totally cocky/funny on waitresses.
Here is Zan's Waitress Takedown Technique (patent pending): []
Note: This style might not work for you, but it certainly does for me. In fact,
I do a variation of this technique no matter who I am with. In other words, if I
am having coffee at a restaurant with some hottie I just met, I do this waitress
technique anyway. Very powerful - puts them both into competition mode whether
they are interested in you or not.
First of all, usually when a group of guys are confronted with a new and
devastatingly pretty waitress, they stare at her ass when she walks by, then
they comment among themselves about her, etc. But then when she comes up to
their table, they become downright courteous and nice and try to act like they
are not interested in her. So they casually order their drinks without really
looking directly at her. And then they revert back to lech mode and rabidly
stare at her ass again as she walks away.
Instead, I go very c/f immediately. When I see her coming towards our table out
of the corner of my eye, I immediately engage a buddy across the table in
seemingly deep conversation - doesn't matter what. The goal is to look
preoccupied and pretend you don't notice her. As well, my body is facing well
into the table away from her.
So she comes up and asks us what we would like to drink. I still ignore her for
a few seconds or so. Then I glance in her direction, and pretend that I am just
now seeing her for the first time. In other words, I hadn't noticed her until
this very moment. Then immediately I show great interest in her - like a new
discovery. A quick glance at her body, just enough for her to notice, then I
turn my entire body in my chair around to face her. And a big smile and wink:
Her: What can I get for you?
Zan: (ignoring the question) Hello, I haven't seen you around before. What's
your name?
Her: My name is Stephanie. What's yours?
Zan: I'm Zan. And I will have a gin and tonic. (big smile)
So far you've broken the ice a bit and by exchanging names, she now has given
you the implicit right to be "more familiar" with her. So the next time she
comes around, again I smile and wink:
Zan: You again? Wow, you sure like to hang around us, don't you?
Her: (laughs) (some stuff)
Zan: (some other stuff)
Her: (some other stuff)
Zan: (as she is leaving) I bet you'll come back again real soon.
Zan: I can see it in your eyes.
Her: (smiling) Yeah, I can't resist.
Now I have established a c/f theme (her wanting to hang around us and that is
why she keeps coming back to our table). Of course, she has to come back to your
table. She's the waitress! And when she does, I smile at her and give the other
guys a knowing look in front of her. "See, I was right," etc. Carry on like that
for a bit. All along, strive to make your interaction with her come off like you
have known her for a long time. Not like you just met her. This establishes a
level of familiarity with her that usually takes several meetings to build. She
is now comfortable with you being cocky and funny with her. And she is now
comfortable enough with you to throw out some witty comebacks. This is good,
because you have circumvented the usual waitress / patron "professionalism" and
polite interactions.
Hope this makes sense. I have it internalized, so it is very difficult to
describe it.
So now, after a while, I will say something like:
Her: Can I get you another drink?
Zan: (smile, wink) You know what? You're kinda cute. I think I'm going to call
you...
Her: You think so, huh? You don't have my number.
Zan: Why, you're right! Ok, tell me and I will write it down.
Her: (smiling) Not a good idea. I have a boyfriend.
Zan: (pretending to write) Whoa, slow down. I didn't quite catch your number
there. You better repeat it for me... let's see... 555...
Her: (laughs and rolls her eyes)
The absurdity of this exchange is that there is no way she is going to give you
her phone number in front of a bunch of your friends. No girl would. But her
digits are not the goal just yet. The goal is to establish an open dialog with
her that sets a cocky / funny frame. And to act like I am just kidding. I don't
really care about her number.
So far, I have done two things here. I have escalated her comfort level with me
to that of an established friend. Her and I now have a rapport, in a manner of
speaking. The next time I see her, I can walk up to her, put my arm around her
and continue with my usual "You would make a good girlfriend for me" talk. And I
did everything in a "just kidding" manner. Did I really want her number? Or was
I was just fooling around? Was I hitting on her or not? She has no idea.
So the next night we go there again:
Her: (laughing) Oh no! Not you again!
Zan: Stephanie, my sweet! Hey listen, sorry I didn't return your call last night
You know how it is. I'm just a busy guy.
Her: (playing along) Yeah, I'm really mad about that.
This gets the whole table laughing, including her. And it's back on again for
the evening. Later:
Zan: You know what, Stephanie. You're a terrible girlfriend.
Zan: In fact, I can't even remember the last time we had sex.. That's it. We're
through.
Zan: (pointing to another waitress) She's going to be my new girlfriend.
Zan: (playing with my phone) You are now downgraded from Booty Call #1 to Booty
Call #10
Her: (laughing) No please, I'll do anything to make it up to you.
And later still:
Zan: (motioning for her to come over and pointing at my knee) Stephanie, come
and sit down. I'll tell you a bedtime story. (smile, wink)
Haha, I have used that last line for years. It is gold.
Some of this might be very obvious to some of you guys (badboy, Kooper, etc).
But I am being very detailed in my description of what I do because I think some
guys don't really know how to utilize cocky / funny frames. And some of you guys
are probably thinking, "Ok, now what? How do you transition from being a funny,
ball busting guy to the more serious, romantic, sexual state?"
Simple actually. At some point, I just talk to her quietly alone. Remember to
turn on the bedroom eyes:
Zan: (No longer c/f) Stephanie, do you want me to call you?
Her: You know I have a boyfriend.
Zan: That's not what I asked. Do you want me to call you?
Her: Tempting, but I can't...
Zan: Sneak away with me, girl. I'll take you higher up the slopes of Parnassus
than you have ever been. etc...
Ok, everything you just read actually happened last Thursday and Friday evening
with me and a waitress named Stephanie. Easily the hottest thing around in a
long time. The jury is still out on this one. But she has no illusions about my
intentions. My friends she looks upon as nice guys. Not me. She knows that any
interaction with me is going to be passionate from the start. And now she can
choose to accept it or reject it.
The truth is, she may very well reject my overtures. But it doesn't matter. She
won't soon forget me. And you can bet that all the other waitresses know all
about the things I said to her. Very good. Especially since I have said almost
the exact same things in the exact same way to all the other waitresses there
(including the ugly ones). And I will continue to do so - right in front of
Stephanie.
The net effect is social proof. When you go in, you own the place. You wave the
waitresses over, point at your cheek, and say "Hey, girl, where's my sugar?" No
one is intimidated because you treat them all the same way. In this one pub,
there are 4 waitresses that have come home with me, 3 ugly waitresses who want
to come home with me, and several more who are works in progress (including
Stephanie). And you can bet they all know about each other. But again, that is
very good.
Your mileage may vary, but for what it's worth... []

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Doc (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author, and the
comments below are also reposted with their authors' permission):
On the insistence of some of the guys, I've decided to write up what I've found
out about managing a harem. If we put our collective brains together, maybe we
can create a harem manual with ways around common obstacles.
I like to keep a harem of MLTRs because I am not big on ONS. They usually leave
me feeling empty (sounds like chick talk). I enjoy the intimacy of getting to
know and connect with one person deeply. But I can't be satisfied either
sexually or intellectually, so I like to have multiple deep relationships.
I usually schedule them in on successive nights during the week, keeping most
weekends free to recruit new members. The first night we set for a date usually
ends up being her night for a couple of months and she becomes a weekly regular.
If they start to get too possessive, I cut down on the frequency. For a period
of about 7 months last year, I had a total of 9 regulars (5 in town, and 4 out
of town). some stuck around as long as 1 year. They all know that I see other
women, and although they are NOT cool with it, they all stick around! Why????
Because each of them is hoping that they'll be THE ONE....
After about 6-12 months in my harem, the girls started revolting and my harem
fell apart after the Christmas holidays for a couple of reasons:
1. Principle 1: Girls are territorial - they know, but want to pretend like they
don't know: Some girls started leaving stuff at my place (presumably they forgot
but more likely they were marking out their turf) and when other girls would
find the stuff (rings, necklace, panties... etc...) they would flip out and
leave the harem.
2. Principle 2: Important holidays will kill your harem: It's almost impossible
to maintain a harem through important holidays (Xmas, New Years, Valentine's
day, etc.) They all wanted to spend Christmas and New Year's with me, but I
couldn't be with all of them, so I lost some there because they wanted to feel
they could have someone to share those intimate times with.
3. Principle 3: There is a built in time-limit to how long someone will stay in
a harem: Some had made a New Year's resolution to themselves that if we weren't
exclusive by the New Year, they would move on and find someone they could "build
a future with"..
4. Principle 4: There has to be the potential of an EXCLUSIVE LTR: They want to
foster the intimacy and closeness that comes from dreaming about future plans
together. If they don't have this possibility they don't stick around. They all
want to think they can convince you to change your mind, change your playboy
ways, tame you, and that they are THE ONE for you.
So now I'm in the process of rebuilding a new harem but starting with a
different frame to hopefully avoid the inevitable revolt in the harem.
Setting the Frame:
1. I tell them up front that I'm very busy and don't have time for a girlfriend.
They understand this part.
2. I also let them know that I travel a lot and see other women when I do. So
far, mixed results.
3. I tell them that I have a very active social life and go out a lot -
sometimes with other women. They understand this part but are not cool with it.
4. I tell them that I'm very selective about who I'm with so it takes me a along
time to know if I want to be with this person or not because the person has to
qualify herself to me. While I'm figuring out if I want to be with her, I won't
be exclusive. They understand this part but there is a time limit to how long
this stays valid (about 1 month).
5. I tell them that I really am looking for THE ONE (dangle a carrot in front of
their noses), but I won't find her sitting around at home - you have to dig
through a lot of dirt to find a diamond. **This sets the possibility of LTR
while simultaneously opening the door for multiple relationships. They get this
part.
6. ***This is key*** "What would you do in my situation?.....I am looking for
THE ONE, but I've been sooooooo disappointed in the past with the quality of
women out there, that I am starting to believe that I'll never find her, so
since I won't lower my standards on what THE ONE has to be... " I ask her what
she would do in my situation... They always give the answer: have multiple
superficial relationships. They REALLY seem to get this.
I set this frame up slowly over time, introduce one Framing concept at a time.
Comments and input on how we can make this more powerful and convincing. I think
there is something natural about harems, because there are more women than men
on the planet. We just need to undo some social programming to get them to
accept this.

stRIPPEd:
I haven't had as much experience as you guys have, but I think I have some
improvements on your rules, stuff that is tested and really works. I hope this
makes sense to you....
The important differences:
1. Territorial nonsense that interferes with my lifestyle is a violation of
trust and understanding. Reframe: you've opened up to her by letting her into
your life, she must accept and respect who you are and what is important to you.
2. Holidays. I don't believe in them. Or, they are my own personal holidays.
Never go out on New Year or Valentine's Day with a GF. These are prime sarging
days. Ditto for long vacations. I do take shorter vacations and long weekends
with MLTRs, but these are big rewards for exceptional behavior.
3. There is no time limit. I have had one MLTR for years, the second one for 11
months. It's ultimately your choice.
4. No exclusivity. I don't believe in it. Exclusivity is not a core value.
Understanding, love, acceptance -- these are core values, and as long as you
satisfy her core values, she will stay!
5. I have been very honest, and these chicks have been surprisingly calm and
cool with it.
6. Doc's "I'm looking for the one and can't find her" is a negative belief that
gives the impression that something is wrong. Reframe: "There is no such thing
as the one, but there are many soul friends in life, and you are probably one of
them...." In other words, it's as intense a relationship as she can ever imagine
having -- so good, in fact, that she doesn't need exclusivity.
The following are my observations, the golden rules of MLTR. I've broken this
down into what I believe, and what I tell her.
Rule 1
What I believe:
Men are naturally designed to have harems and women subconsciously predisposed
to accepting them, although they have been culturally programmed to think
otherwise.
What I tell her:
I'm not into traditional relationships. It is important to learn to know,
understand and accept one another for who they truly are deep, deep inside.
Rule 2
What I believe:
Women are by instinct highly attracted to players, a fact that often creates a
delicious conflict inside her and makes the relationship exciting. Basically
whatever you do, you just meet her core values and she stays with you. It's that
simple.
What I tell her:
Outside experiences enrich and enhance the relationship. Under no circumstances
does seeing other women mean anything is wrong between you and her. In fact,
it's all about experiencing love, adventure and excitement together.
Which leads to
Rule 3
What I believe:
MLTRs can be pre-selected or reprogrammed for lesbianism so they fit into your
plan. You set the rules for her to allow her to become a partner or co-player in
your game, introducing you to new women, threesomes, etc. if she so desires.
What I tell her:
Paraphrase Rick H's bisexual woman patterns.
Rule 4
What I believe:
You can give all your MLTRs what they truly want -- even if they say they want
something else, you can satisfy her like no one else can.
What I tell her:
When we are free to truly understand and accept one another, I can satisfy you
like no one else can.

Rio:
I understand stRIPPed's point, but saying "There are many soul friends in my
life" etc. is going to throw out a lot of women who want a relationship with
you... and that includes the harem sense as well. The reason why they are in the
harem is that they are seduced by their own fantasy of getting you all to
themselves. By saying what you suggest, you destroy the illusion.
Otherwise, the only women who will accept this are women looking for the ONS.
I agree though, "I'm looking for the one" is generally a bad thing to say. I
much rather like to hint that there is a perfect woman out there, and that each
of them can become that woman if they do x and y and z to prove themselves to
me. I constantly strive to push the envelope of what I can get women to do to
improve themselves in my own eyes. So in that sense, they see me as somebody
worthy of telling them that they are not good enough, and may never be.
And DOCs rules are spot on too.
About the stuff left at your apartment.... you should start a regime of
deporting "illegal customs" to the rubbish bin and then pretending that they
never were there in the first place.
"Where's my panties?"
"What panties?"
They soon get the message.

stRIPPed:
Rio, I follow your excellent thinking, but you're a little off the mark still:
You are wrongly ASSUMING that the only reason a girl gets into a relationship is
because she thinks you are the one for her.  They may have been socialized into
believing that nonsense, but it's not true.  The reason a girl (or any human for
that matter) stays in a relationship is because their partner satisfies their
core values. And a core value is not "monogamy"!  A core value is something like
honesty, love, acceptance, understanding, sensitivity, etc.

The reason they are in the harem is because they are seduced by the fantasy that
they have a deep one-on-one connection with a true player!  Reread that line.

Rio, it's great to use your screening frame and telling her how to improve
herself.  I do it all the time, but it's based on my own map of the world and my
own rules, while you are still following society's b.s. about monogamy and
finding the one.  There is no such thing as the one, just the one you choose if
you buy into the idea.

Rio:
Perhaps that's just an anomaly of how we play the game.... I don't disagree with
your idea on core values though. That is true.
I want to play with the idea of relationships. You don't. That could be because
of our different geographical location and types of women we deal with....
choice of lifestyle. Etc. Nobody is right on this point I feel. It's a matter of
taste.
Personally, I like to buy into the relationship thing because women never see
you coming as a player, and I like that part of it. I like giving women more
than enough rope to hang themselves with their own relationShit - and I don't
have to manipulate them to do it, because they seduce themselves with the idea.
It makes it easier for me seduction wise, because they try to seduce me then.
I like to parade myself as the decent guy, and then enjoy the social proof and
sex that comes with it. I like being the guy that women tell their AFCs about,
as in: "He was such a nice guy when I met him, but then we had sex and he turned
into an asshole."
Whereas, I was being nice to them all along - but I was just seeing other women
too!
For me, I'm all for the relationships thing (assuming here, that relationship
means a lot of sex and that's it.). Personally, I like being in love with women
as well as fucking them too - so it helps me from that point of view.
Now, I fully understand that it isn't everybody's deal - which is OK. Some guys
would rather stay the hell away from all that nonsense, and I don't blame them.
But, I found myself enjoying the sex more doing it like this, and it felt less
like a speedy-seduction and more like real seduction. Before, when I took the
attitude of "I want sex with no real relationship" I occasionally got laid, but
the chicks were only ONS. Then I got a bad rap and lost social proof with most
other women. Plus, when I did get laid, it was just sex with no mental game at
all - which quickly got boring for me. There was no sexual state doing it
robotically like that. PLUS, I now usually attract women who will actively try
to fuck me - falsely thinking that I'll be an AFC-like slave hooked on them
straight after sex. Thing is, I surprise them later when that doesn't happen.
.... then we get to the part about the deep one-on-one connection with the true
player, that you were mentioning!
At least, that's my way of doing things. Your way may differ. I deal with
Japanese women too.

stRIPPed:
Rio, I doubt the culture makes the difference here. Understand that I have
serious relationships with my women -- and I'm honest with them. There is no
false expectation on their part, and no disappointment. As a result I have very
long term MLTRs and good friendships with my ex-MLTRs.
The few chicks that I had trouble with during and after the relationship were
the ones with whom I played your kind of game. I don't see any advantage to the
conflict you've created -- though I can see how it would work.

Rio:
You're thinking that I don't have serious relationships either? I can see why
you would think that. I'm guessing that you are assuming that I am bullshitting
the women I get with grandeur dreams of having me exclusively from that point on
- and then I become a jerk and let them down afterwards. This is not the
case.... more importantly, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! How can I possibly be honest with
them about the future? Anything can (and usually does) happen!
I DON'T know the future! To promise them something, or lead them down that rose-
petal path, AND accurately predict the future at the same time is an
impossibility - and they know it as much as I do, but they want it anyway. I
WANT women in my life for relationships, but only WHEN I want them!
Who knows what tomorrow will bring?(Sounds romantic doesn't it?)
I let women fill in the blanks to that question..... that requires no
manipulation, deception, or trickery on my part. They do the seduction all by
themselves. They are better at it than me.
Perhaps we are talking about the same thing in different ways, and I'm just
seeing it through rose-colored glasses......
Oh yeah, you have to screen for stalkers too. Getting women is easy. It's
getting rid of them that's hard. I like the attention though.
Getting rid of them is not too hard really, because as soon as they slip up (get
too clingy, do something I don't like), their status plummets in the rankings.
So in that way, they technically eject themselves without me needing to do
anything.
Women are quite happy to send themselves going on the whole merry-go-round. No
intervention from me, other than seducing them with the basic idea.

stRIPPed:
Didn't think you didn't have serious relationships. In fact, Rio, you clearly
said you did.
I was also responding in part to the line in which you said, "I like being the
guy that women tell their AFCs about, as in: "He was such a nice guy when I met
him, but then we had sex and he turned into an asshole."
I can't imagine your liking that. That's my nightmare. Sounds like you get your
share of stalkers and drama queens.

Rio:
I try to screen this out beforehand.... but this is the problem is that you only
really find this trait about the chick out until AFTER you've done the deal.
You get the chick to seduce you and she will LIE to you, to tell you the things
that she thinks you want to hear - including that she doesn't mind you seeing
other women, when really it bothers her. This happens in screening nearly 100%
of the time.
It's only until later, she fesses up and admits that what she wanted all along
was a relationship with you as a slave of sorts - and then you become the
asshole. There's no escaping it (for the most part). So you screen her and it,
out. Then it's on to the next relationship for you.
In a way it's funny, because I don't have to do anything bad to warrant the
wrath. I am a gentleman, all the time! I want the relationship (lots of sex on a
regular basis). I find it particularly amusing because if she really wanted to
keep me, she shouldn't piss me off with all her bullshit about wanting a
relationship (which already exists!).... BUT, they rarely ever seem to
understand that.
When you get really good at this, you DO increase the odds of having stalkers -
usually from chicks who wouldn't normally be stalkers in the first place.
Perhaps we should call them groupies rather than stalkers..... (!)
The same hot chick that gave me some of the ideas was pushing me towards the
stalker mentality too - until I snapped myself out of it. To date, no other
chick has had the same effect on me. I guess that's what happens when someone is
that seductive.

The reason I do things the way I do now, is because of a particular woman who I
fondly remember who does things exactly the way I do now. She was a babe, a
complete fantasy woman. She dressed well, spoke nicely, was a lot of fun, open
to sex....... did everything you'd expect for a dream woman. She was hot, but
acted like she didn't know it. She never had her head in the clouds at all. We
screwed, and then she tried turning the tables on me to see if I'd become her
slave. I spotted her work in process, avoided a nasty fallout - and learnt from
it.
Now, I learnt to be the gentleman, the nice-guy, the perfect companion (which, I
might add, is all I wanted to be in the first place) - and women love it. They
think I am THAT good! I don't argue with them, I just tell them exactly what
they want to hear - and I get laid, and when they start to piss me off..... I
go, and get another, because I know I have the VALUE they want.

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Rio:
Universal Guide to Getting Laid in Japan
http://www.penismightier.com/fenomas/laidguide.html
Some humor for you all.... remembering that all humour has a small percentage of
truth in it.

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Maximillian Hell:
>DB: I have a recurring problem with guys that try to interfere with me just
speaking with women. What will happen is that some guy sometimes will subtly cut
in front of me with their back facing me, trying to block me from speaking to
the target. Once an hb's brother did this to me and last night some guy who came
in with a girl (maybe they were dating} "gave me the back". I noticed that when
other guys spoke with her that this dude did not resort to this behavior.

Maximillian Hell: That really sucks. I feel mad for you and want to kick some
ass. I really don't have too much experience on this matter, but perhaps you
need to somehow physically position yourself vis-a-vis the target to prevent
this--don't give the guy any room to wedge in. You may somehow be giving off
some sort of beta vibe. Check your posture, gestures, and speech. They may see
you as an outsider somehow. Do you have a look that is different from theirs?
You may simply be a threat to them because you are more articulate and clearly
have more education than they do. Also, these other guys you see with the HBs
may simply be old friends so the CBs don't see them as threats.

[snip]
> I thought about just politely calling guys on their behavior, but I don't
know. I read somewhere on ASF that the standard response to a CB is "Dude, I am
having a conversation! Do you mind?" or something like that. I have often found
that good eye contact in confrontations can make people cave quickly.
Maximillian Hell:  The few times it has happened to me I think it was because
the guy already had a lot of rapport with the HB. E.g., he was an old friend who
could simply drag her off to the dance floor, whereas I had just met her.

Researchers: Marriage doesn't make you happy:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/03/17/marriage.poll.reut/index.html

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Christian (http://www.datingdynamics.com):
The Point System
The most important part of dating for men is maintaining a good attitude, and a
correct attitude. It's one thing to not be bitter when you face rejection and
your fears with women, but it's another to make sure that you're keeping up your
posture.
In short, your posture is your overall status level with a woman. Your posture
can range from total supplicating wimp on the left end of the scale, and
hardcore self-interested jerk on the far right. You are shooting for something a
bit over to the right of center when you first start dating a gal, and you ease
off until you are at a good equilibrium somewhere near the middle.
One of the most effective tactics for letting a woman know that you are self-
confident is by showing her that you are not the kind of guy who takes whatever
is handed to him. You have standards, and she has to live up to them.
The tactic I'm about to teach you is exceptionally effective, as it communicates
your posture right away. (This technique is also an excellent variation of the
"neg-hit" or negative hit technique where you let a woman know she isn't getting
any breaks for being attractive.)
The Point System goes a little like this:
John is at a bar with Mary, who he just started talking to. He's been talking to
her for a few minutes, and there seems to be a good vibe. Here's their
interaction:
John: "So, I've always thought of snowboarding as more free-form than skiing.
You can do quite a bit more freestyle activity. Of course a lot of skiers tend
to complain about snowboarders."
Mary: "Sure. I've been skiing all my life, and I've never really had any problem
with 'boarders. They're like the hippies of the slopes."
John: (Nodding.) "Hmm. That's a good analysis. You just scored a few points with
me. I might be seen skiing with you." (smile)
Or,
John: "Let's see, the best movie I've seen lately was 'Daredevil.' I think Ben
Affleck handled the role very well.
Mary: "Oh, I saw that last weekend, too. I liked it a lot, too."
John: (Looking impressed) "Wow! I'm impressed. You scored some points there. A
woman who appreciates a good super hero movie."
Now, you see what is happening here: John made it clear that he is not out to
win Mary's approval. She has to win HIS. By telling her that she scored some
points with him, he's also telling her that he wasn't so sure about her. She has
to WORK to gain some credibility with him. John comes across as more valuable
since he is not a free commodity. He's sending a subtle communication to her
that he is not like other guys.
Use this maybe once or twice in your conversation, and don't overdo it. The
trick of this is to make sure that you aren't giving her too much confidence
along the way by awarding her too many "points." She has to wonder where she
stands with you. The best way to do this (and it's required to complete this
strategy) is to take away points from her later in the conversation and see how
she responds to the challenge.
Mary: "I'm not a big fan of Jackie Chan."
John: (Shaking his head.) "Uh-oh. I'm going to have to take a few points off for
that. How can you not like Jackie?"
John just communicated his implied disapproval with her, and if Mary is at all
interested in him, she'll come back with something to try and win those points
back. If she wants John, she'll also want his approval.
There is always the danger of this tactic coming across as arrogant, so handle
the delivery fairly delicately. It's best to have something to say immediately
following the "You scored points" line so that it takes a little of the edge off
and it's not hanging out there, waiting to be shot down.
Be aware that many women aren't used to having this kind of role reversal used
on them. They will test you on it with a slightly indignant tone.
"What? I'M scoring points? Ha!" (What she's saying without words is that she
wants the control, and doesn't take kindly to your attempt to keep it.)
How do you handle this? To begin with, you must not act even slightly affected
by her attempts to call you on it. If you lose your humor, or start to look
uncertain, you'll have flunked the test, and she'll know that you were just
posturing.
On the other hand, if you stand your ground, you can handle this without missing
a beat. Your best strategy is to pause for a few seconds, while looking her in
the eye, and then chuckle to yourself.
Then, when she says, "I'M scoring points!? Right, buster," you can say:
- "Hmm, up until then you were."
- "Uh-oh. Looks like the princess thinks I'm full of it. Maybe you're testing
me."
- "Is this how you charm all the guys?"
- "Hmm. Now why would you say that?"
The best response to her test is a negative hit that lets her understand that 1)
She doesn't intimidate you and you aren't backing down, and 2) you will do it
politely and with a good sense of humor (no bitterness or resentment).
I, personally, will walk away from women who act indignant when I let them know
that I'm not a supplicating wimp. It's obvious at that point that she'll
probably be high-maintenance from the start, and you can only expect that she'll
have a death grip on the steering wheel of any dating relationship. She's
inflexible, and probably a control freak with an over-inflated opinion of
herself.
Used judiciously, the Point System will help you weed out the women with poor
attitudes, as well as improve your posture in the eyes of the ones with good
attitudes. Remember, no woman ever wants what comes easily, and if she expects
you to bow to her superiority, you want nothing to do with her.

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IN10SE (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author):
IN10SE's "Ideal" relationship values
I post this here because I had to come up with a good response on the fly when a
few of the gals I have been out with lately have asked me what I'M looking for
in a "relationship". I normally don't like to bring up the "R" word, but when a
gal brings it up, you have to have a good reply... one that will show them that
you are intelligent, that you have it together, that you are sophisticated, and
that there is more to you than meets the eye.

Now the context of using this is that I have only used it with gals in a casual
environment, (a bookstore, coffeeshops, restaurant). Haven't tried it in clubs
nor do I think it would work in a club setting. This is for when you are alone,
having one of those one on one, deep rapport conversations, as a prelude to (a
few steps before) the full close. Here was my response... and everytime I've
used it so far, it has gotten deep levels of rapport (it became about them
seducing ME) as well as broken down any resistance...

As far as anchoring, when I've done this, I used sugar packets once, and I used
my fingers (pointing to them) the other times.

(You may want to read the theme itself before reading about the anchoring part
next so that it will make more sense)

Actually using my fingers as an anchor was kind of a subtle sexual signal,
because I would put my 3 right hand fingers up (one finger for each value, as if
counting), and point to them with my left index finger and then when I would do
each of the "2 values without the 1", I would form a "ring" with my thumb and
index finger of my left hand that would encircle the two fingers of the other
hand... and as I talked I subtly slid my encircling hand up and down over my
fingers. (first each of the 2 together and then the 3 all together at the end)

I actually did this without thinking about it consciously at first, then I
wondered why the chick I was talking to got all flushed and started breathing
heavy as I was moving my left hand index/thumb "ring" up and down the "shafts"
of the fingers of my right hand. Anyway, here it is...

--------------------------------------------------

"I have a new theory about all relationships and what makes up the ideal one.

First of all you need Passion. This is where you have a physical chemistry with
this person, where you feel drawn to this person that you're with, you may even
feel a warm feeling right here in your stomach and maybe it spreads all over
your body when your with this person… where you can lose track of time and give
yourself completely to this experience…

Next you need Intimacy. This is where you feel an emotional connection with this
person, like you've known them before, and like you were always meant to know
this person… like this was meant to be and where you feel completely comfortable
and close… and you may feel it right here in your heart…

Then you need Commitment. Philosophers have called this a sense of "duty"… where
you feel secure, knowing that this is someone that is here for you, that we both
choose to be together… and this is someone that you can see yourself with now
and in the future…

Now, all relationships are based on varying degrees of each one of these
elements.

For example if you have just passion, but no intimacy or commitment,  then that
would be like just physical infatuation. Like a one night stand or something…
nothing more, nothing less…

If you have just intimacy, but no passion or commitment, then that would be just
friendship. And we all have those…

If you have just commitment, but no passion or intimacy, then that would be an
empty relationship. Like a lot of married people out there… so sad.

Then you can have passion and intimacy, but no commitment. This is like a
"Romantic affair"… and maybe the knowledge that it is something that's now or
never… or that you have no guarantees about, makes the passion and intimacy even
more intense…

And you can have passion and commitment, but no intimacy. That is like people
who stay together because they really like the sex.

And you can have intimacy and commitment but no passion. That would be like
grandma and grandpa who are together for companionship, but cant remember the
last time they did it.

And of course the ideal, as with all things… is about balance, where you can
have just the right amount of passion, just the right amount of intimacy, and
just the right amount of commitment… well… now that I think about it, an extra
little bit more passion would be nice… what do you think?"

When I discuss "relationship type" themes, it is because THEY have brought it
up. And I take it as a definite IOI. And so the context is never about "advice"
or about "therapy" but it has to remain the frame that YOU are the one with all
the insights... you are the one that is right... and of course YOU have all the
answers...

And THEN you must quickly interject "sexual" themes so that you don't get stuck
talking about "relationships". You have to also play it up with the kino, eye
contact, and sexual themes so she gets turned on and so that she knows that you
aren't her "Therapist"...

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Jerry:
>aa aa: > Mark B.: But I find that being direct or indirect really does not
matter as long as you are able to either keep it light and deal with her shit
tests. Telling a woman she is stunning is only a small part of the total
interaction and I find really irrelevant to success or failure. It's the nature
of your follow up conversation and style that tends to determine one's success.

A comment on Street PU: A Subway pickup (repost from the London Seduction
Society):
Last Friday night on my way to meet the girl I fclosed that night, I saw a
gorgeous girl in the Tube. She got in two stops before I had to get out, so I
waited one stop contemplating what I would tell her, then I sat down next
to her and said:
"Excuse me, I just wanted to tell you that you are drop dead gorgeous, so I was
wondering whether you have anything else going for you than JUST THAT!"
Worked wonders. Her reply: "Hell yeah!". She got off at Picadilly Circus with
me, so I said "So what is then that you have going for you?" and she replied
"Well, I cant tell you everything now - you would have to find out."

Total amount of sarging time: 3 Minutes.

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cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.

NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:

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Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from alt.seduction.fast, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

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Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):

 

[all words] [any words]

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