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"What was hard was convincing myself that changing myself is easy"

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What was hard was convincing myself that changing myself is easy
3/30/03 11:34:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time

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Cliff's List Website
http://www.cliffslist.com/

Please go to the website for a full list of the rules, disclaimers, suggested
links and referrals to other seduction sites and explanations of what this list
is all about.  Seminar, workshop & conference schedules are on the website also,
as is a glossary of terms that may be used here that you may be unfamiliar with.

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DAVID NEWS:
David had a computer crash and lost ALL his emails.  So anyone who sent him
questions should resend them.  This time, I would recommend you copy me as well
(cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]) so I will make sure they get answered.

David's Email Newsletter is gearing up.  We need questions for David so if you
have any questions about relating to women, including where to find them, how to
get them, what to do with them, how to keep them, how to get them back, etc.
etc. please send your questions to dav***[email protected]***.com[ ? ].

All subscribers of these emails will be given a free subscription and, as here,
you can unsubscribe at any time.  I know that you will find his comments and
advice to be pretty unique and very useful.  We are also making progress on the
long awaited book which we hope will be ready relatively soon now.

The tapes of the David Seminar are now available and are being shipped upon
receipt of your order, but please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery. You can visit
the website at www.be-relentless.com and orders should be made through paypal
(go to www.paypal.com and send money to sal***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]) if you need
some other way to make payment, inquire at inf***[email protected]***.com[ ? ].  This product
comes on 5 Video CD's for a total of approximately 6 hours of playing time. They
will work in any DVD player that will play Video CD standards or in computer CD-
ROM drives using Window's Media Player application. The price is $230 USD + $20
USD for the Video CD's which covers shipping and handling anywhere in the world.
Inquire about shipping by overnight courier.  These tapes are now available in
DVD and sound only versions.

Private in person or telephone consultations with David are available.  David is
particularly intuitive with regard to your specific individual problems with
certain women.  You can get on the phone, answer his questions on the situation,
and he will give you very insightful advice on how to succeed in your particular
mission.

PLEASE NOTE:  This David is not to be confused with David DeAngelo of
www.doubleyourdating.com (who has posted some great stuff here under the name
"Sisonpyh"), or David Shade (of www.davidshade.com).

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ROUNDTABLE INVITATION: SPOTLIGHT ON VINIGARR!!!
That's right, after a year and a half of everyone asking me "when are you gonna
have another spotlight on Vin?" it's FINALLY going to happen this SUNDAY!  Not
only that, but I personally worked several hours over the phone with Vinigarr to
make sure he delivers a VERY special talk... packed with his best ideas and
tactics to date, answers to common questions (including newbies), advanced
concepts and formulas that he's used successfully to get threesomes, etc.
I promise you won't want to miss this one.
If you know how I operate, then you know that when I occasionally setup a
special event like this, nothing is held back and I manage every last detail to
make sure its memorable, but most of all... IMMEDIATELY VALUABLE.
To give you an idea of how the extra-special treatment I'm giving you guys, you
will be the first group to see The New York Hypnosis Center... even BEFORE THE
SLEEPWALKERS!!!
And trust me, John and I have outfitted this sweet little pad in the downtown
district with stage lights, cameras, platforms, speakers... the works. ITS EVEN
GOT A BALCONY!
And if that weren't enough, we've got a 27 inch screen Television set with VCR
and Kevin Cook is gonna come by with a copy of his Metro New York Television
Personals debut... and we'll all get to watch him. He's been on TV everyday for
the last two weeks and from what I hear, its a MUST-SEE! Women have been writing
him with some very interesting responses. : ) Then, Cook will tell us about his
improved game with the Mystery Method» and what he learned LIVING WITH MYSTERY
AND HIS PUA FRIENDS FOR 10 DAYS!  In fact, several of our boys went to Mystery's
workshop and seminar when he visited NYC and swear by it... they will all share
some of their most eye-opening lessons!
So do you think that's enough for 3 hours time together?!? And all that for $5
bucks...
All you gotta do is sign up and confirm your attendance in ADVANCE. It's easy to
get there because the building is literally 5 steps away from the subway and all
the express trains stop there... 2,3,4,5,A,C,J, etc.  I promise this new center
has more than enough space for everybody and no one will have to sit on the
floor (or balcony)... unless they want to.
Here is the invitation as promised:
------------------------------------------------------
SPOTLIGHT ON VINIGARR
Sunday, March 30th  4pm - 7pm
For exact details and location, send a blank email to: ohg***[email protected]***.com[ ? ]
------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who is confirmed to attend and does NOT cancel in advance (= a silent no
show), will no longer be invited to future events. That means if you confirm,
can't make it and don't say anything about it before hand, you're banned.
This policy is fair, and not one person has ever complained or had a difficult
time adhering to these guidelines. It keeps the list clean from uncommitted
members.
~Marco
PS I rule.
Vinigar:
How I Turned A "Flake" into a 3 some!
You are gonna think your boy Vini Hollywood has completely lost his mind, but
I'm gonna share with you the - blow by blow - low down dirty secret on ...
How I turned A "Flake" Into a 3 Some!
And by "flake" I mean - A girl that canceled a "date" with me literally the very
last minute before I was supposed to pick her up!
Imagine - you're on your way to meet your "date".  It's 48 seconds before your
meet time and your phone rings (cell phone owners). You pick it up and hear a
pretentious- "I don't think I am gonna make it".  If you're like most guys,
you'll give her a pathetic spiel on the importance of commitment, the value of
time, your "rules" on respect and tell her to take a long walk on a short pier,
i.e. you "next" her!  While you think to yourself " I showed her - I don't
supplicate! I don't need her!"  I know that's what happens because I used to do
that, too. Not anymore!  I figured out a way to turn that around totally - and
get anything you want!
Oh and by the way - If you EVER hear anyone say that this has NEVER happened to
them - you are not only encouraged - but it is your obligation as a NYCTSF
member to yell - BULLSHIT!!!!!! And you can even tell em "Vini sent me!"  Even
the mackest of all mack daddys get flakes. It's just part of the statistics!
You see, If there is one thing I learned dealing with people is this - when
someone fucks up, flakes out or doesn't come through  for you, you are presented
with a golden opportunity to exert MASSIVE leverage. I'm talking about writing
your own ticket here guys!
This is a critical moment that when handled correctly can turn a _Next_ into
_Sexed_ lol.  Anyway, I don't have the time right now to get into it in detail,
but here's a breakdown of what I did...
- Sleight of mouth to "power through" and keep the date
- Logistical flexibility to "get around" the objection
- Instantly inject massive pain, regret and remorse to canceling out
- Evoked a "can I make it up to you" frame
- Planted a seed on how she can make it up to me
- Challenged her ability to follow through
- Got strong verbal commitment to a make up
- Put the ball in her court
I did this in under 3 minutes. And best is - the whole idea of her making it up
to me - was her own! As well as bringing another chic for me to bang! Amazing!
Now if you guys want to hear exactly how it (or they) went down. I suggest you
come to the next NYCTSF meeting.
Marco is having me as a guest speaker, and I can tell you right now, you are
going to be blown away.
You're especially gonna love the part about what she really did the night she
canceled claiming she's "sick".
In addition to learning the exact methods I used to turn this chic around, I'm
gonna share with you some other "flake busters" like...
*The Flake First Principle - how to totally eliminate a flake before it happens
- OK well with the chick above I forgot to do this! She will definitely show up
for your "date".
*The "you are a flake" pattern- how to get a chic to commit to hooking up with
you. She'll be so excited when you call, she'll ask you" can I see you?"
and more.
Marco has made an official announcement on the date and time of the next meeting
above. I want you to send him an email with your confirmation - right away!
Until then... play on
Vini

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Clifford's comments: For you guys that really are into "field reports" and want
more examples, details, etc., Dave Riker (one of Ross Jeffries' instructors)
will be doing his own special evening seminar in New York April 11 and 12.  It's
called the "Riker¹s Seduction Log  Live Seminar". Dave constructs the entire
seminar around field reports, DETAILED versions of field reports, in some cases
from start to close (that's a REAL ... FULL close guys), detailing what he said,
how he said it, gestures, kino, demos, etc.., all of it.
Dave did a similar seminar in LA in January and there were a lot of great
reviews for this. Basically Ross's seminar is during the day, and then at night
there is a separate seminar that Dave puts on as well. (You do NOT have to
attend Ross's to attend Dave's, although it's suggested).
He is really good at thinking on his feet, coming up with stuff on the fly, and
he teaches about how guys can learn how to do this for themselves. There is a
lot of material that many of us use now that Dave originally came up with off
the top of his head when talking to a woman. This seminar will probably be good
for guys that get a bit tongue-tied, or guys who wish they could get better at
just "knowing what to do" in the field. It also just helps guys to get a sense
of how this all really works when you are actually there talking to a woman.
If you want to get more info, check out:
http://www.daveriker.com/logseminar/track/cl.htm

***************************************************************
Riker:
What If You Could Be There When A Real Master Is Seducing A Woman? What If You
Could Hear Everything That Takes Place - Have Him Tell You, Step By Step, What
He Is Thinking - And How He Knows What To Do Next?
What If You Could Get All Of This, And Also Learn How YOU Can Have Such Skills -
In 2 Evenings!
Now - You CAN!  At the "Riker¹s Seduction Log  Live Seminar"!
A True Seduction ³Master² Opens Up His Personal Seduction Journals And Provides
Step-By-Step Details Showing YOU To How Get Results!
Many of you have heard of the incredible seminar first held this past January in
conjunction with Ross's LA Seminar - where I (Dave Riker) spent 2 evenings
providing detailed, word-for-word accounts of successful Sarges ....
Well we are glad to announce that those who attend the upcoming New York SS
seminar ... and even those who just live in that area, will now be able to have
the same experience!
For details - see the web page:
http://www.daveriker.com/logseminar/track/cl.htm
Be sure to note - anyone that pre-registers not only gets a special credit card
price, but will ALSO get preferential seating - a bonus which adds a LOT to the
experience for you - just read some of the reviews on the web page to see why!
Yes, I WILL still be teaching at Ross's seminar during the day! This "Riker¹s
Seduction Log" seminar will be held during the evenings on April 11 and 12. This
is IN ADDITION to the day seminar sessions.
Even if you are not or can not attend Ross's full seminar during the day, you
can STILL attend this seminar.
If you have any questions about the "Riker¹s Seduction Log  Live Seminar",
please contact me directly.
I'll see you there!
Dave Riker

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Tiffany Taylor has a new product that proposes to help men in the unique way
only a woman can.  If anyone gets this book, your review would be appreciated.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/guygirl

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THE SPHINX OF IMAGINATION

A creative and complex weave of music, poetry, sound, storytelling, hypnosis,
and spoken word; The Sphinx Of Imagination blends all of these and more, into
what results in a Journey for, and Through, Your Mind.

Imagine a work of such complexity, such vision, and such scope, that it
literally was over 12,000 hours in the making.

How can one describe such a work? Try to think about "Trance" music, not music
that you dance to, but yet music, with sounds, words, stories, that create a
Trance within yourself. Imagine the sonic complexities of Pink Floyd, woven in a
way that makes the music, sounds, and stories flow within one sonic landscape,
the likes of which few have yet traversed. Think about a story, or better yet a
series of stories so interesting and compelling that they totally involve your
senses, your imagination, your being, resulting in changes the likes of which
few stories have created.

THE ARTISTS

Hypnotica - Concept, Creator, Author, Storyteller - Hypnotica is one of today's
most profound thinkers ...blending his talents as a Hypnotist, Entertainer, Mind
Scientist, Poet, Spoken Word Artist, Social Scientist, Neuro-Linguistic
Programmer, Storyteller, Seminar Leader, and Pioneer of Human Consciousness.
Hypnotica has dedicated his life to the expansion and improvement of the human
experience.

Denver Clay - Musical Score, Sound Engineering - Denver is known for his ability
to manipulate sound, music, sonic textures, and tones, in a way that can
profoundly affect one's consciousness. Known for years for his ability to create
trance-like affect upon people with his talents on synthesizers , Denver worked
for 6 years on a landmark 6 year collaboration with Dr. Richard Bandler, co-
founder of NLP (Neuro-Linguistic-Programming). The Sphinx of Imagination is
Denver's most creative and complex work yet to date.

THE JOURNEY ... AND THE DESTINATION

The Sphinx of Imagination is a Magical story...a story that opens up your mind
to greater possibilities...one that allows you to explore new levels of
creativity between the realms of the real and the fantasy.

By listening to the Sphinx of the Imagination you can benefit yourself by:
- Metaphorically merges the real world with the fantasy

- Enhances your ability to dream of greater possibilities

- Helps you rediscover life's larger meaning and purpose

- Inspires you to channel your thoughts and dreams into a dynamic force, which
can help liberate your own life, and affect those around you as well

- Directs you with a new energy and optimism of the future

- Builds an inner awareness of self discovery.

The Sphinx of Imagination is the ticket. Your mind takes the ride...and the
destination is your dreams...
http://www.hypnotica.org/track/cl.htm

Cliff's Comments:  I said last time that I had listened to this CD (which
clearly has very high production values) four times one night, and 4 out of 4 it
put me out.  I don't know if that's a good reaction or not, but for me that's
really great.  Also involved in this elaborate production is Dave Riker and
Steve Piccus.  I wanted to give a more elaborate review, but now I have played
this CD at least a dozen times and I still can't tell you much about what is on
it.  Eric "Hypnotica" and Denver Clay have created a very high quality product
and it seems to be having a great effect on those who listen to it.  If anyone
else has a more indepth review of this that they can provide, please do so.

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Archangel (from an email correspondence):
I'm talking about what you do in the presence of a woman. I've "interviewed"
plenty of women, really hot chicks... it's so much more than an interview, it's
like I've "hacked" them. I really have a technique of "no technique." I get so
totally into her head I feel as if I could do her thinking for her. I'm not into
controlling women, although I've had some experience on that and may write about
it in the future. Everything I say to her forces her to go inside of herself.
But when you are inside of a girl's head, understand that this is a two-way
situation... once I'm inside her head, if she pays attention she'll notice that
she can also detect a little of what's going on inside my head. THAT is where
the real influence comes from. That's why, before being successful in seduction,
a guy has to work on himself. Once he's got himself where he needs to be,
seducing girls is trivially easy... he can recite the telephone book and get a
girl into bed.
I used Tom Vizzini's "3D Mind" to create my Irresistible Self (IS)
(www.essential-skills.com). A rejection is not feedback to me - it is an
indication that the girl doesn't deserve me! Done correctly, rejections can
actually increase a guy's confidence by making him feel more exclusive!!! I'm
rarely rejected anyway.
Before I discovered NLP, Speed Seduction»(tm) (www.speed-seduction.com), and all
the rest, I only got "lucky". Now, lucky means that the girl just happened to
like who I was, and she got me talking about feelings before I started talking
about boring data. I approached every girl with a mixed feeling of distrust, and
hopefulness. While that sounds like a typical AFC, what I always had going for
me is my very off-the-wall sense of humor.
>From all the interviews I've done, I know that a guy's attitude towards woman
is mostly due to his childhood... Personally, I strongly believe that this is
where a seducer is made or broken. Many AFCs that I've interviewed have had
experience with mostly flaky women in their youth. Now, I come from a family of
very strong & supportive men, which gave me terrifically strong male role
models, but I also spent some time in Catholic School and let me tell you, the
way the nuns treated and harassed the boys and coddled the girls is going to be
the next Church scandal. I've interviewed lots of AFCs, and they all seem to
share this same problem - a childhood that is not only lacking maternal warmth,
but also lacking any loving emotional content at all. That's why an AFC is
emotionally inexperienced - the states he has to put himself in to seduce a
woman are states he's never experienced before!

Cliff's Comment: The key, then, is to overcome this structural problem.

Archangel: Yes, that is the golden key, the "silver bullet", that so many
seducers don't realize that they have to overcome. It's a fundamental inability
to relate to women - any women - on a deeply emotionally trusting level.
Anyway, I started dating a stripper about three years ago. Now, both of us were
surprised when we hit it off as good as we did, but I soon began to realize that
she was getting pretty exasperated with me. I wouldn't actually call it bitchy -
but it was as if she was expecting something from me emotionally that I wasn't
giving her. It took me awhile to convince myself that I had a fundamental
problem relating to girls on an emotional level - and, I didn't even know what
that meant!

Cliff's Comment: This sounds like it was your first GF - is that the case?

Archangel: Not my first GF, but the first GF where I didn't give up in
resignation and walk away when things didn't go smoothly. Now, I didn't take the
relationship seriously because she was a stripper, so because I did not want a
long-term relationship, I had lots more courage, and she became a project
girlfriend. When I think about it, I have to admit that I didn't think of her as
a GF, I considered her more of an experiment.
My first real introduction to my new way of life was when I ordered the Speed
Seduction»(tm) course. Now, I'm one of the moderators of the UltimateSeduction
list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UltimateSeduction/), and as such I try to
stay away from any product bias, but I want to take this opportunity to say that
I am a huge fan of Speed Seduction»(tm)... but, in a way that is much different
than most. I listened to Ross' tapes in two ways: first, to pay attention to
what Ross was teaching; second, to hear HOW Ross was teaching it. For me, I
personally found that HOW Ross teaches is much more fascinating then WHAT Ross
teaches.

Cliff's Comment: So you found his presence, tonality, etc. more important than
the content?

Archangel: Ross' presence and tonality on the tapes are good - but what really
impressed me was his use of language. As I am a self-employed marketing
consultant, I figured that Ross wisely saved his most powerful stuff to promote
his products, not teach seduction. Understand that unlike most people, I respect
him for this, because in a way he's hiding his best stuff for only the students
sharp enough to get to know something about how Ross works. Now, while Major
Mark (www.trucor.com) has much more presence, his very, very subtle and
effective use of tonality is simply amazing.
I had good success with SS until I finally attended a Major Mark seminar on
Advanced Hypnosis. Now, this is when I began to realize that I needed to stop
focusing on the chicks, and fucking pay attention to myself!!! While I had
bought Ross' Unstoppable Confidence tapes and didn't find it effective for me,
Mark's stuff started to get my conscious and my subconscious communicating with
one another in a way that's never happened to me before...eventually, I came up
with a terrific way to make me feel wonderful about myself, in a way I'd never
experienced.

Cliff's Comment: This needs a lot of elaboration. I agree that the fundamental
problem most guys in the seduction community face is a lack of self esteem, some
on a very deep level. The old "gotta love yourself first" dictum is very true
and a real problem for most. I think if someone could come up with a way to cure
this self esteem problem at its core, there wouldn't be problems with women.

Archangel: YES, YES, YES! I spent months studying the subject of self-esteem on
many different levels. Most of the self-help books were crap on this, but I
found good starting material and proceeding to draw new conclusions.
I have some different concepts in the above. Outline of the rest of my story:
- Developing and focusing my Internal beliefs
- Seduction is an extension of how you feel about yourself
- Deconstructing "Love" into separate states
- Emotional importance of facial expressions
- Jesus the Chick Magnet (he had chicks WASHING HIS FEET, for crying out loud!)
- Lots of interviews with hot chicks to understand how they feel about being hot
- Understanding "sleight-of-mouth", Hannibal-Lector style, and how I used SOM
and state control to give an evil bitch that was trying to play me a total
nervous breakdown

Cliff's Comment: I gotta hear that story.

Archangel: O.K., this is basically a technique that involves using what she
sends to you back to her. In reality, it's a technique of last resort that isn't
really a good thing to do unless you are a very strong person and can deal with
the fallout. I call it "pacing her insecurities", and it's something I did
before I purchased anybody's products.
In the situation I reference, a real HB that I'd been seeing for about six
months was with me at a bar, angry and bitchy at me - hey, it can happen to the
best of us, huh? So, what she did was ignore me, while making eye contact and
outrageously flirting with other guys. So, she was leading with her strength -
her hot looks - not in an attempt to meet guys, but in a feeble attempt to hurt
me. Now, I knew her intention was to hurt me. So how did I counter? By basically
becoming the life of the bar party! I gave her the cold shoulder by telling my
best jokes, making friends, showing off my outgoing personality - in short, I
showed off all the things she couldn't do. I then walked up to one of the guys
she was flirting with - he got real nervous when she saw me, but brightened up
when I shook his hand and called him a "good sport" - all while not looking at
the girl. I then patted him on the back and went off to have a good time within
earshot of her. But the devastating blow came when she caught my eye while I was
laughing my ass off with two other guys. So, I pointed to her while I was
laughing - and as the other two guys followed where I was pointing they
naturally made eye contact with the HB - so she thought the three of us were
laughing our asses off AT HER! When she sat down next to me later, I used
innocently-sounding language that was actually designed to send her intent
towards me, back to her. Now, I was simply trying to have a good time without
her, with the intention of ditching her at the end of the night. However, what I
did not realize until months later, is that in action and in word I was
displaying everything I had in my personality that she not only lacked, but she
felt bad for lacking. Later, in the car ride back, I innocently talked about the
strengths that I had that were insecurities in her... before I knew it, she had
a complete nervous breakdown. She threw her cell phone out of the car, started
screaming her head off that she hated the world - all the time desperately
hanging onto my shirt as if I was had the magic answers to her life that she
sorely lacked. Again, months later I discovered the three basic principles that
I had used. In retrospect, I could have had the same outlook just by talking to
her and turning herself back against her.
Now, before everybody accuses me of being an unfair asshole, look what I did - I
told jokes and was sincerely entertaining and had a good time with some people I
just met. I never meant to hurt her the way I did. At any time she could have
joined in on the fun. I made myself feel real good, and benefited the other
people around me. The worst you could say about what I did was that I prevented
myself from becoming hurt personally by taking care of myself. The worst - well,
in all honesty I never could have predicted the outcome that occurred. You know,
to this day she still calls me for advice about her life...

Cliff's Comment: Well, I think we agree about the internal states - as much as
you can elaborate on how you fixed this for yourself would be greatly
appreciated.

Archangel: I'd have to say that the one book that got me into managing my
internal states is "Sleight Of Mouth" by Robert Dilts (http://www.nlpu.com/). It
reads like stereo instructions sometimes, but if you can push your way through
it, it's a goldmine. Externally, proper use of SOM can get you almost anything.
Here is more on the mindset of hot women and how I used that to get into my
Irresistible Self mindset.
People that see me post on the UltimateSeduction Yahoo list know that I'm a
really big fan of Robert Dilts. From his book "Modeling with NLP," I was able to
place myself into the head of lots of people to examine what drives them - more
importantly, what are their beliefs.
It took me some time but I was able to totally understand the mindset of really
hot women by putting myself into their shoes.
From the point of view of a real HB - from the day she walks out the door with a
complete stack, people stop taking her seriously. She floats thru life on top of
social situations, but that's it. HB10's never get hired for real jobs, because
serious managers know how much of a problem they will be. I've seen it myself -
I've seen real top HB's in offices. They never last. According to Raquel Welch
they are stuck as fantasy figures, and most people want to keep them in the
fantasy and out of real life - Welch discussed this in a great interview in
Cigar Aficionado magazine. She talks about how sexuality gives a woman
tremendous power, but it's a specific kind of power that only opens certain
doors, and closes a lot more doors of life. Welch was intelligent, in High
School a straight-A student and VP of her senior class, won a shitload of beauty
contests, and couldn't get a normal job. She got involved in acting and modeling
because she felt that was the only way she could earn any kind of a living. The
thing that struck me is she writes, "It felt like doors were being closed to my
soul". She wrote how she didn't like getting just any man around her horny,
because it wasn't her but, "I played along with that in order to get a break. I
tried a lot of different ways, and that was the way the break came. I was trying
the much more serious approach and was getting absolutely nowhere." She was only
able to get work by wearing tight dresses. Nobody had any interest in what she
had to say. She talks about low self-esteem, feeling empty, looking for love -
it's very sad. And it all makes sense.
So, instead of feeling like the top HBs are girls that you need to seek
acceptance from, guys need to see these girls as if they are missing something -
incomplete. It's a reframe, but it works. Most HBs go thru life experiencing
supplication from men in all of it's forms. Almost every man they meet is an
insult to their intelligence - at least, what little intelligence they have.

Clifford: Sounds like you have your own thoughts about how intelligent women can
be.

Archangel: Well, it's actually how intelligent can anybody be that hasn't had
any personal challenges in their lives. There's a reason for the dumb blonde
stereotype, and it's because if you place someone on a pedestal because of their
looks, and don't interact with them as a person, they will never get the chance
to develop. I have an attitude that shocks - and pleases - women, and it is
this: I expect a woman to be at her best when she is with me. I won't settle for
less, and I will let her know in no uncertain terms if she's slacking. Some
people might think that this is being a little bit of an asshole, with just a
pinch of father-figure thrown in. Actually, this is me making sure that we
(O.K., I) have the best time. I will even say this to a woman in no uncertain
terms if she flakes on me: "I insist, and demand, that you be at your best when
you are with me. If that's too much for you, and you would much rather be with
some guy that will treat you like you're stupid, then let me know".
I'd say one of my "secret techniques" is that by offering her guidance I begin
to very subtly control her. Women WANT to be controlled. I've even had
situations where I've controlled a woman's thoughts. I'll save the details for
my book, but basically you focus on certain POWERFUL states and you blast it at
her. You need a piercing gaze, and your body movements must be circular, and
fluid, like you're walking underwater. Kind of like a Good Dracula: she's under
my control because it's the best thing for her. I've found that one of the
reasons women want to be controlled is because it quiets the noise and confusion
in their mind.
I say this sympathetically because without someone pushing back, without goals,
they have no way to grow. So, every day, as the supplication of men grows, they
start to become more and more angry by it. They develop shields, blinders. At
first, she sees every man as a potential groveler - then comes the day when
every man IS seen as a groveler and a supplicator.
Every man is viewed with suspicion - and men feel that suspicion in their core.
It makes them want to prove themselves to her, because with a look or a glance,
she can make a weak man doubt who he is, and sometimes even force him to
supplicate.
Now, I am not forgiving this behavior. I was simply seeking to understand it, so
that I can model this behavior, and so force women to supplicate to ME in the
same way! What would it be like, I wondered, if all women wanted to kiss my ass?
"Girls desiring me - surrendering to me? Who do they think they are - they don't
even know me! They think they have a chance with me? I'm a smart guy, I can give
them feelings and cravings - and more, even more than that! Are these women
worthy of me?"
The first time I tried on this attitude was walking through a very long airport.
Airports are monotonous, and as you walk past the gates you take yourself into a
trance. So, as I was walking through the airport with my briefcase, past the
dull beige walls, thinking about how annoying it would be to have women crave
me, suddenly something clicked - and it showed - because I began to notice women
noticing me. The cute gate attendant stammered as she offered to upgrade me to
First Class. The female security guard at the metal detector looked me up and
down and said, "Oh yeah! You got the walk, baby! You got that walk real good,
honey!" Nothing was the same for me after that day. I had to go really meta to
find out what I had done to myself. During the flight I took myself deep into
trance to discover the mechanism I had used to create this irresistible self,
and it was this:
I thought changing myself is hard. Changing myself is easy. What was hard was
convincing myself that changing myself is easy.
Seduction is not something you do to a woman. Seduction is something you have to
do to first to yourself.
Next, we need to discuss my Reciprocal States Theory, which states that every
state that someone assumes can be countered by a state from opposite sex that
will force supplication. In some cases, I've even gotten into "state wars" with
women where we try to force the other to supplicate. My first state war is the
only one I lost. I've either won or stalemated each one after that!
In the beginning I was also concerned about my behavior. But what I eventually
realized is that my behavior towards women is directly related to how I feel
about myself. For years, whenever women have been polled about what they like in
a guy, what do they always say? "Confidence, and a sense of humor". The problem
is, "confidence" is a nominalization. It's what a guy thinks about himself that
makes all the difference. To me, seduction is 90% what you think about yourself,
and only 10% what you directly say or do with the girl. Once I'm in my
irresistible self mindset, my actions are dictated by how I feel about myself.
When on a date, I really can't wait to dissect a woman's mind with Hannibal-
Lector-type precision. To me, there's nothing more fun.
Women absolutely love a guy that's good at sleight-of-mouth - real verbal
persuasion stuff. It's actually to be expected, really. Look, as a marketing
consultant with years of experience, I can say that I love the scent of a good
product battle. I know that's how I sharpen my wits - that's how I get better at
marketing - and, it's an opportunity to show myself what I can do. I began to
understand that hot women are the same when it comes to relationships - what
most guys don't know is that to many women a relationship is a potential
opportunity to grow. And, if you don't take her seriously as a women, with all
that is involved in that, she clearly won't take a guy seriously as a man!
Verbal wordplay is just one example. See, while everyone agrees that
communication is an essential part of a relationship, most people discount the
obvious, which is that to be good at communicating verbally, you should study
verbal communications! Duh.
To me, there's nothing more fun. Everything I do is based upon the works of
Robert Dilts. Once I allowed myself to make seduction easy, it became easy. The
problem most guys have is that they simply can't develop a realistic belief on
their own that they can be a master-seducer.I knew a guy in college that was fat
- I mean, he was obese - with an ugly beard and beady eyes. But he loved to
laugh, and had a way of looking at girls with a mischievous face that just
turned them into playful little girls that followed him anywhere. Look, if the
mind of a master-seducer was transported into the body of any AFC, he could do
better than the original.
Isn't that a trip? That somebody else can do better than you if they had your
body? That's what I'm teaching - how to do better with what you've got.

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Ross:
> Style (reposted from Mystery's Lounge with permission of the author - the
comments from others in this discussion below are also reposted with their
permission):  I had a really interesting time last night: four *closes. Of
those, three I felt WANTED me. But either my game faltered at the last minute,
or it's just a matter of waiting. I'd like some opinions.

Ross:  I've got some. Overall, I think the problem is letting your intent waiver
at the last minute because of either a PERCEIVED objection you are PROJECTING
she will have, or, because you view her actual OBJECTION as being a stone wall
rather than something that can be gotten around. Let's look at details.
> Style: PART ONE: THE PERSONALS Inspired by Dkonstrukt, I've been trying the
personals. My photo is not posted, but my profile is fun and challenging. I sent
out about four emails. Got responses from two. Once I sent out my photo, one
flaked and one kept emailing.

Ross: Personally, I'm ready to give up on the personals. Photos are prime in
importance, and I've seen women go from 100% interest to ZERO, once they get a
pic. I'm experimenting with some new ones, but right now, it looks like it is a
pretty much "no-go" medium for me. I'll stick to meeting women in person.
> Style: I did lots of ball busting by email (using elements of the
Dkonstrukt/David D email routine), and, as soon as she started asking me dumb
fluff questions to "get to know me first," I turned the tables and made her
qualify herself (using Ross J's "name three qualities" line). The great twist
here is that I told her that she wouldn't get my number until she earned 15
points. The points were added and subtracted depending on whether I liked what
she said in the emails, how she described herself, etc. Once we exchanged #s,
she said, "I've never had to work so hard for anyone's phone number before."
Awesome!

Ross:  Good setting of a frame. Might as well go balls out in email and not take
it seriously.
> Style: Anyway, I met her for a quick drink tonight. I was pleased: she was a
little older, but very classy and attractive, an 8.5. Right away, she said,
"You're sexy." God, I love it. I was NEVER a good-looking guy who women found
attractive or complimented until about three weeks ago.

Ross: Remember, she liked your looks from your photo or it never would have
gotten to a phone call. So, you were already half way home!
> Style: Whatever I did to change my look is working. It's the longer goatee,
the head shaved clean all the time, and the black boa/scarf, perhaps. And it's
the realization that any guy can be a 9 if they are willing to change themselves
and their style  without saying, "But that's not me."

Ross:  I agree with most of that.
> Style: I told her that my place was across the street, and if she was good and
promised not to stalk me, I'd point out my balcony to her. I did the Cube and
blew her away. She rated its accuracy a 10. Her body language» was SO leaning in
to me, and she kino'ed me a lot. Whenever she asked screening questions ("what's
your longest relationship"), I'd bust on her for screening and talk about how I
do it to girls, too. I made my standards seem very high (thanks Rio). Anyway, I
was playful, funny, transitioned to sex (she loves talking about it), and teased
her for being attracted to me. I KNEW that she wanted to fuck me. But, at the
same time, she was stressed about work and her INTERNAL PROGRAM would not let
her fuck a guy right after meeting him out of the personals. She also said
something about wanting the anticipation when I tried to instant date her for
later that night.

Ross: You might try this: give her a good demo of good feelings. Then say, "I
don't know if you can imagine JUST how far you could explore good feelings (zip
up the anchor)..somewhere more quiet where you could really focus in...but as
you think about it like that..why don't we get out of here..go where we can
really talk...I've got a lobby in my complex where we can sit...I don't know how
I feel about having someone I don't know in my place."
That sometimes works......
> Style: I walked her to her car after an hour-long meeting, and we had an
awesome make out session, with our hands all over each other. I ALWAYS try to
get feedback from women for future reference. So I asked her when she first knew
she wanted  to kiss me, and she said, "As soon as she saw me." (This is all new
for me: I was never good-looking until three weeks ago, LOL.)

Ross: Remember, she liked your pic.
> Style: I KNEW she wanted to fuck me, but I also knew that if I invited her
upstairs, she'd decline.

Ross: Really? Don't be so sure. Or, don't frame it as an "invite". Rather, get
her to imagine exploring even better good feelings, where we could really
focus..but only for a while..you have to get up early the next day.
And try this..as you are making out, pull back and say..isn't it interesting how
sometimes life throws unexpected opportunities your way...and you just have to
take them...because you don't ever know what tomorrow could bring?

You are probably right that she would resist and open invite. But really, an
invite is just asking for permission or verbal approval. They won't give verbal
approval usually, and almost never when it is verbal approval for something
outside their comfort zone.
Style, keep YOUR intent strong, but be flexible in how you handle what they tell
you. Don't let your intent be so determined by what appears to be their
objection in THAT moment.
> Style:  So I was in a catch-22, and let her leave. But as we were making out,
she said, "I HAVE to cancel my plans tomorrow." So, my plan is to invite her
over to "play" (her word) tomorrow, then for the best sushi of her life, and
then back to my place again to watch Arte's New Sex video (I mentioned it to
her).

Ross:  Let us know how it works. Be prepared for last minute defenses, fears,
etc.
One fear is that if they fuck you right away, you'll dump them. My come back is,
"Wow..I'm surprised a woman of your quality would have so little confidence in
herself in bed. I'd think you would KNOW that you'd be so good in the sack, any
guy would be insane NOT to want to come back for more."
> Style:  ...and said she was "easily hypnotized." I thought here, "Why did I
never bother to learn hyper emperia?"

Ross:  Why didn't you have ME there with you? I would have shared her with you,
good buddy!
> Style: At the club, we joined the table of a singer in a pretty well known
band. It was crazy: women were THROWING themselves at this singer. And he's not
even good looking or charismatic or even THAT popular. But he went home with
three  women. (Question: What do THOSE women want from him? And is there a way
that WE can provide that value WITHOUT being famous?)

Ross:  Come on now. You should know this. He's ON STAGE. Therefore, he is the
object and the center of all that attention. Women can project all sorts of
fantasy images and feelings onto HIM. He's almost a human, ritualistic TOTEM
that the female tribe and invest and inject with feeling, which naturally then
they want returned. GIVE THE ENERGY BACK TO US they cry!
This is the basic rule, as I see it, with these things.
Take Shaq. If he were just a 7 foot tall furniture mover, who was NEVER in the
spotlight, do you think chicks would dig him in the same way? I DOUBT IT!
Did you know that German women used to orgasm at the sight of Hitler when he
made public appearances? Surely we are most of us better looking than
Schikelgruber.
> Style:  II gave her the El Kabillo IOI test (where you press your hard on
against her leg and see if she lets it stay there or moves away, LOL). I got the
IOI, LOL x 2. Here was a logistical problem: my coat was in the club, but I
wanted to hop in the cab with her. I mentioned running back to get it, but she
said, "Let's save something for tomorrow." Again, I KNOW she wanted it. But
taking the logical leap to her CONSENTING for me to go home with her was too
much.

Ross:  Dude, get your priorities straight. Come back for the coat the next
fucking day or lose it. A player is going to nail the playmate and buy himself a
NEW coat the next day as a celebration.
She's testing to see if you are strong enough to get in the "nailed a playmate"
club.
Forget about consent. Have her IMAGINE being with you in some other place and
experiencing amazing feelings as she does. She's now seeing you as just yet
ANOTHER guy she let make out with her and gave a hard-on to. How often do you
think this happens for her?
Probably whenever she wants it to. So, at the last minute, when it is time to
distinguish yourself from the pack (which you were doing up to now), you turned
into an AFC.
You either have to be very forceful and not care(which is not your style,
Style!) or you have to get her to imagine the being alone and attach great
feelings to it..and then be willing to walk.
> Style:  So, with three of these closes, I did not have an effective routine to
go somewhere to have sex. This means one of two things, IMHO. Either the women
NEED time (but here there's a risk of flaking later or not being in the same
mood). Or, more likely, I am doing this wrong. I am skipping steps. Or, perhaps
the problem is that when I go out, the KISS is my goal. So I'm  strategizing and
angling for a make-out session, which I get. However, I am not, from the very
start of the sarge, working with the intent of taking her home. The problem may
be that I am thinking forward (get a #, get a *, take her home) instead of
backwards (try to take her home; if that seems unlikely, try for a *; if that
doesn't work, get her #).

Ross:  No. I think you are relying on some initiative from women who, because of
their looks and social status, never have to show any! The only guys who nail
them are the ones who are totally forceful or the ones who seriously engage
their imaginations and then have a "take it or leave it" angle.
The issue is, are these losers really worth it? Personally, I've met your
friend, Miss D, the pilot/Polish chick, and would rather be with a fun, hip,
together chick like that who also can show initiative and be pro-active than
some bimbo in a flea-bag motel. (What did she do with all that money?)
So what if she isn't a ten. She probably fucks like a 20 and will cook you
breakfast afterwards or fly you to a nice little island where you can catch
lobsters (instead of catching crabs from the bimbos).
> Style: UPDATE: The following day, the Personals girl came over at 10:30 p.m.
We drank wine, put on wigs and ran around on the beach, and then she came
upstairs and attacked me. Literally rode me till she orgasmed, kept telling me
how sexy I  was, and then went home immediately after. It's interesting: all she
wanted the whole time was a FB to help her get off, but still had to "get to
know me" and screen me about my relationships first. Do you think she wanted to
use me for sex, but first wanted to make sure I wasn't using her for sex?

Ross: I think she is just embarrassed to admit to herself the difference between
what turned her on and what she was SUPPOSED to want. I've talked about this
lots, Style. Haven't you been paying attention? YOU OWE MY KITTIES SOME TREATS
FOR BEING A POOR STUDENT!

And..I like this stuff about wearing wigs. Where did you get THAT idea?
> Style: 1. She saw me talking to someone she knew, so thus I was "okay."
(social proof) 2. The instant cold-reading was what really hooked her. That's
when she knew she wanted to kiss me etc., when I told her so much about herself
right away.

Ross:  Ah..you see. You demonstrated authority in her world. I told you that was
a big one. It's one of the 4 key skills I teach in the Palo Alto videos.
Chicks feel understood..that you are an authority on where she is at, so it
makes it more likely you are an authority on where she can and should be led.
Trick is to keep leading once you demonstrate you understand.
> Style: 3. I forgot the rest. Finally, both her and the Personals girl say that
they WANTED me and were wet on DAY ONE. So, I wonder, did they NEED time or
could they have still been closed on day one if I played even more solid game?
(I sound like a runner now, trying to shave one second off his 100-yard dash.)

Ross: I think you could have closed them, yes.

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aa aa:
Some random thoughts today.
1) In one of my latest sarges, I did my usual "absolutely stunning" approach on
a street PU -- a blond, slender, and stylish girl (Swedish as it turned out from
the accent). I was in a playful mood and I delivered my opener with a big smile
and some "nervous" laughter in between. This came off very sincere and
endearing. She was quite receptive, and although she had a boyfriend and in a
hurry, she smiled, touched me on the shoulder and said thank you. Now, I have
always found women to be flattered by this approach, but the difference this
time was my delivery. The "nervous" laughter in between seemed to come off very
endearing than when I usually said it in a more serious and intense tone. In
other words, whether this made a difference or not, it was interesting to
experiment with my delivery.
2) I've been having good results with the following Reframe. I #closed a girl in
a club awhile ago. We met on a Saturday and I called the following Monday. When
I called, she said she felt bad because she has a boyfriend. To which I said,
"Then I wish you the best, and take care." And I immediately hung up. I
proceeded to call other girls I #closed, of course. Then I decided to call her
back. When she answered, I told her it was me and I immediately said, "Don't
worry I'm not going to keep calling you. I just had one question and I couldn't
shake it off and I had to call you back." She said, "ok?" I then said, matter
factly, "Why did you give me your number if you have a boyfriend?" She said, "I
don't know." I asked, "Because you were drunk?" She answered, "I was that, yes."
Then I said (and here's the reframe to the situation), "Let me just say that I
have absolutely no interest in pursuing someone who has a boyfriend. Now that I
know you're taken, I can say I'm completely over you and I have no interest in
pursuing you. I did, however, think you were a sweet girl... or I don't know,
maybe you're just sweet when you're drunk, but I was just thinking that there's
no reason why we can't be friends and hang out. And I was also thinking, who
knows, maybe you have some cute and single friends who might be perfect for me."
She laughed and said, "Ok, if you're ok with that, then we can certainly hang
out sometime." We're suppose to hang out sometime next week, we'll see how this
goes. But I used the same reframe to a girl I met on the train who told me she
has a boyfriend. I said, "Ok, I want you to know that I have absolutely no
interest in pursuing someone who has a boyfriend, but I was just thinking you
seem like a pretty cool person and I thought you might be someone worth getting
to know. And besides, who knows, maybe you have some cute and single friends who
would be perfect for me... I mean that is, since you're not available of
course." She laughed and was quite amused with this, and we should be having
lunch tomorrow.
3) Some words on clubs. A few clubs are free before a certain hour, like 10:30
or 11:00. Take advantage of this fact. I come early and get my hand stamped.
Usually it's too early to be happening at this hour, but guess what? I leave the
club when there's nothing happening and I check out the bars, and when I come
back to the club, I've already got my hand stamped and I've avoided the long
line that starts to form. This list has been right-on in the advice that it
gives. When I'm at a club, I stick to the quiet areas that are better for
talking and at no point do I step foot on the dance floor, except if a girl I've
been sarging asks me to dance with her. I've always had lingering negativity
about clubs and bars, largely due to my AFC days. But, it's true: no where are
you going to find a larger gathering of single girls looking to meet other
people. I sarge too many girls who end up telling me they have boyfriends in my
street approaches. (Don't get me wrong, I've also found that there are pros and
cons to street approaches and there are pros and cons to clubs/bars.) In
Mystery's method, the FINDING part is also important. I've also found that
certain places and certain clubs draws a certain crowd and quality of women.
Nothing has been more disappointing to me than to pay entry to a club only to
find the women there are not the quality that I'm looking for. There are clubs
that draws a more classy crowd, and there are clubs that draws a hip-hop crowd
(or whatever else type of crowd).

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Carlos Xuma (www.datingdynamics.com & www.seductionmethod.com):
PAIN MANAGEMENT
I was snowboarding in Lake Tahoe a few weeks back, and there was a demonstration
of chin-ups by some Marines to boost enlistment. They had the Marines' Hummer
there, as well. I noticed the t-shirt one of the guys had on, and the message
was brutally honest and clear: "Pain is the sensation of weakness leaving your
body."
That got me thinking about the nature of pain, and how it functions in dating
and seduction.  The most important thing for a man to do as he learns how to
handle women is to keep his head on straight. Keep your attitude healthy,
because that will be the ultimate weapon in this war of the sexes. You must keep
yourself on the positive upward spiral. The way you handle your pain in the
singles world is critical to your overall success.
How do you view pain?
Do you avoid pain at all costs? Do you find yourself seeking only pleasure and
staying away from circumstances that could potentially cause you pain?
I address the pain/pleasure motivational spectrum in my e-book, THE DATING BLACK
BOOK, and I want to help you through a little of your own anguish here today.
How you handle it will ultimately determine your success.
You see, you have to be willing - and even a little eager, as sick as that
sounds - to go through a little discomfort to get to your goals with women. Men
don't have the built-in sexual instincts that women are brought up with.
Women study this stuff every week, from Teen magazine to Cosmopolitan, to know
how the game works and how to win. They've always had the upper hand.
Guys just start out at a natural disadvantage in dating and sex. As young men,
we focus on being strong providers and enjoying ourselves, playing football and
'reading' Penthouse from time to time. Our sexual education is mostly comprised
of a few bad porno movies, or our embarrassed father trying to explain the birds
and the bees. (My dad's attempt was pretty awful.)
Women get busy as soon as they discovered that Ken dolls were not anatomically
correct, and they learn how to collaborate with other women about the drama of
their relationships for enjoyment.
To get better at the game of dating and seduction, think of it being something
like when Michael Jordan decided he wanted to switch from basketball to
baseball. Remember how he tried for the major leagues, but he had to go back to
the minors to prove himself? You need to understand that YOU have to go back to
the minor league, too. You need to get a few bumps and bruises, and then you can
deal with her in the major leagues. (Unlike Michael, you CAN and WILL make it to
the major leagues in this sport if you keep learning and improving.)
So how do you manage the pain? First of all, realize that the ONLY pain you feel
when you're out there in the "dating" world is all self-induced. YOU are the one
making yourself feel bad or inadequate 95% of the time.  Understand that most
women NEVER do the things you are afraid of just for walking up and talking to
her, like slapping you or throwing a drink in your face. As long as you're not a
complete idiot and don't come on too strong, women will give you a chance about
99% of the time. All of the rejection you are so worried about is made up, and
absolutely none of it reflects on you as a person.
So how do you contend with the constant disappointment and mixed messages?  Pain
management is your answer.
Set a threshold of emotional investment with women so that you limit your
potential pain from them. If you find it difficult to flirt and hit on the
ladies because it's too painful, back off a bit. Just say "Hi!" as you pass them
on the street. Reduce your energy output so that you don't feel impacted by her
response. When you get sufficiently recharged, you can then start to risk more
contact with her again, and you'll feel more up to the challenge.
Another form of pain management is to ensure that you interpret women's
reactions correctly. It's easy and tempting to read too much into a woman's
behavior, and even more difficult to not take her reactions too seriously.
Remember that while you're trying to get into her bed, you should never try to
get into her head. You need to keep your observation of her behavior based only
on the results you get. Watch only what she DOES, not what she says. Her actions
will tell you what she is feeling, even when her words seem to contradict. If
you get caught up in the game of trying to figure out why she didn't call, or
why she always flirts with other guys when you're around, you'll create a lot of
pain for yourself. Stay as detached from her as possible at the early stages so
you can avoid getting misdirected.
The rule for pain management is the same as it is on Wall Street: Only invest as
much as you can afford to lose. Too many guys get into trouble by putting too
much of an emotional investment out there, and then when they don't get the
response they feel entitled to, they turn bitter and angry.  Don't make this
mistake.
Manage your pain, and you'll be able to stay in the game longer, and your
endurance and tolerance will rise dramatically - as will your results. You'll
feel your weaknesses around women leaving you with each step you take.
Here's a bonus strategy: To keep your attitude and sense of self and fulfillment
up - and the pain controlled - take the opportunity to create a zone in your
world to affirm your value. What you need to do is create an Ego Wall.
An Ego Wall is a place where you hang your awards, certificates, diplomas,
pictures, plaques, etc. - all the things that pump up your opinion and belief in
yourself. On my Ego Wall I've got pictures of me snowboarding, skydiving, my day
at a race car school, my college diploma, my martial arts certificates, etc.
It's affirming to me, and when other women see it, they understand that I'm not
just waiting around on the sidelines of life - I go out and actively pursue what
I want. This is immensely attractive to women.
Make yourself an ego-wall to help you through those painful moments in your
learning process. And remember: Pain is nothing more than the sensation of
weakness leaving your body.
Manage that pain.

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Maynard:
Honestly, managing several girlfriends doesn't seem that difficult to me (it's
only as hard as you make it). My pickup mentor consistently has a couple temps
that he doesn't really care about plus his live-in LTR and another LTR at any
one time, and both LTRs know he's dogging around town (and hate it, but can't
deal with not having him). That's the way he sets it up, and there's no room for
argument over it, so it is just naturally going to go his way. Relationships go
the way you set them up. Changing them requires dealing with drama. He doesn't
mind drama, particularly (he feeds on it). But I'm not him, and I'm not
interested in what he's got.
I want a traditional LTR, basically, except with several girls (and as opposed
to most of what we talk about here, those girls with each other), and no
expectation of fidelity. I visualize the relationship to host swinger's parties
and for everyone to have FBs on the side. But still with those three elements of
passion, intimacy, and commitment.
But I wonder how I can get such a relationship. I have very high standards for
quality of personality, and I absolutely hate melodrama (but I understand being
supportive in truly bad situations, like death in the family or serious
illness). I can see how I could maintain such a relationship (bringing in new
girls from my FBs or theirs). I can see that the women who would join such a
relationship would have to be easy-going, bisexual, open-minded, at least a 7 in
looks, and intelligent (because I don't put up with dumb girls), not to mention
interesting to talk to (I dislike boring or petty girls more than dumb girls). I
screen for that. But how do I go about getting the first one and then add the
second (take the first with you to find the second)? How do I approach the topic
with the first (obviously she should initiate relationship talk, but how do I
phrase it so she'd be capable of dealing with it)? How do I deal with the
competitiveness of women, especially at first? Where can I find a larger
percentage of such women (I imagine single swingers and hippie chicks would be
the target audience)? Any other ideas or suggestions?
I don't generally have much problem getting laid (I make amateur porn for fun
sometimes, and those girls are EASY, but of course I only screen those girls for
2 things-- looks and willingness to get freaky for free), but this is more along
the lines of the type of relationship I'd like to be in for the remainder of my
20s, at least, and I don't really know how to go about it. Also, how do I make
sure girls relationships with each other are good? The goal is not just to have
this relationship form, but to have it work well, after all. I know it's
possible, but is it a practical idea? How do I keep it all low maintenance?
If anyone has any experience or good ideas, I'd like to hear their advice.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
cliff’s list advertisment section
Cliff’s Comment: For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails.  The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list.  If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.

NON SEDUCTION-RELATED:

RECOMMENDED:

One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo’s Double Your Dating» e-book.  David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" — which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross’ Speed Seduction» seminars.  His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.

Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.

Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community". After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from alt.seduction.fast, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past.  At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.

Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it’s program is unmatched. Right now they’re doing a Free Trial period, and I’d take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A – Z, you’ll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you’ll see why their members like this program so much.

NOT REVIEWED YET:

Here’s another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven’t gone through the old emails to check. Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?

Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.

This one also looked pretty interesting. Information on breakups and loving-styles.

Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes! Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More

The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please.

Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for SexThe Guide contains the following Inside Secrets: Replying to ads – how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.   Placing ads – how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites.

A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.

Arte’s New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman’s g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend – but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully.

Check this out.

cliff’s free plugs section
Cliff’s Comment: The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn’t send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up — from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this):

 

[all words] [any words]

INFORMATION ABOUT THIS NEWSLETTER ARCHIVE:
This is an archive of a free e-mail list relating to seduction, maintained by "Clifford".  Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from different people are separated by IIIIIIII’s).  If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail asking to be added or removed to
cli***[email protected]***.com[ ? ] and it will be done.  If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask.  For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction»Â®, Clifford highly recommends your visiting http://www.seduction.com/.  For those interested in seeing the previous e-mails that were sent out ("the archives"), they are available on request to Clifford or, preferably, can be browsed and searched at the archive at http://www.fastseduction.com/cliff/.

By your accessing this archive, you understand that the information contained in within is an expression of opinions, and they should be used for personal entertainment purposes only.  You are responsible for your own behavior, and none of anything you read herein is to be considered legal or personal advice.  You also understand and agree that any products you may order as a result of your reading about them in this archive are produced and sold independently from us and that any complaints, disputes or other issues which you may have with the sponsors of these products are to be dealt with directly with said sponsors and we are not responsible in any way whatsoever for any issues which you may have with them.   If you are not in agreement with any of this, please leave his site now.

DISCLAIMERS:
This newsletter and the newsletter archive in general is reproduced here with Clifford’s permission.  Visual enhancements and search features have been added by the fastseduction.com webmaster to facilitate the reading and researching of the content.  The raw text as it appears here is exactly as it appeared in the original e-mail newsletter.  Products, services, or external web sites mentioned or linked to in this archive does not denote endorsement of those items.  The contents reprinted here are the opinion of the original writer(s) and are not necessarily the opinion of, nor endorsed by, the owner(s) or operator(s) of fastseduction.com.  The archive enhancements are generated automatically and there may be occasions where the visual cues don’t correlate exactly with the textual context; most of the time, though, the enhancements are pretty accurate.  The archive is updated as regularly as possible, whenever new newsletters are sent out.

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