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Fuck Up Report: Kiss close rejected at the last moment

mASF post by little_grasshopper21

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Fuck Up Report: Kiss close rejected at the last moment
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mASF post by "little_grasshopper21"
posted on: mASF forum: Field Reports Discussion, June 6, 2005

(Sorry I had to repost this, because I couldn't edit it correctly. This is a
better, more thought out version of the same FR.)

This is a pretty long field report. Consider yourselves warned. :-)

***Reader's digest version: I had opened this girl (HBPsychologist) about two
weeks ago. She was reading a book and not even looking up, so I went in
directly with "Hi. I know you're studying, [blah blah] [pace pace], but I think
you're kinda cute, [blah blah]." She started laughing, kind of flattered, and I
sat down very naturally to chat with her. I just fluffed with her the whole
time, and I achieved pretty good rapport with her. When I made the pitch to get
her number, she silently hesitated a few seconds, but did give it to me. I left
it at that, and we met two weeks later yesterday).

I met with her yesterday at 12pm. I went for the cheek kiss, and I noticed that
she didn't really reciprocate. I just made a note of it, thinking that more
work needed to be done to get her to be comfortable or more attracted. In
retrospect, it might just be a sign of her personality, which means that my
gameplan needed to be a lot tighter than it was yesterday.

In particular, there are a couple of things that I feel I did wrong, and that
probably hurt me the most. First, I think my frame of the meetup was not set
correctly. IMO, I should have let her know from the beginning that the purpose
of our meeting was to get to know each other. Second, I think did a poor job of
eliciting her values/getting her life story; honestly, I didn't really do it,
which is why I don't have a lot of relevant details about her
relationships/sex, or her past behavior. Third, my "patterning" (for pushing
connection/attraction states) wasn't flowing smoothly enough because I was not
winging it very well; I wasn't properly prepared. Fourth, I didn't persist in
trying to push those states/emotions more than once (stack them); if I had done
that, it could have helped me push those feelings and amplify them.

Finally, I may have misjudged her as an "undercover freak" when in fact she may
have been more "conservative" than I thought. I'm still not sure though,
because I didn't elicit enough information. Plus my ego is hurting right now,
and it's easy to blame failure on things outside my control instead of blaming
it on my execution.

The longer breakdown follows. I'm going to be writing about what I think I did
wrong, but obviously objective feedback from the folks in this list would be
helpful (otherwise I wouldn't share). :-)

***Fluff: I was pretty good with this. Busted on her a little very
occasionally, and had a pretty smooth conversation. I had very good rapport
with her. There's not much to say about this part, because it's just irrelevant
talk for the most part. Talking about breakfast, movies, and all kinds of

***Attraction: Once I knew for sure that my rapport with her was good, I moved
on to trying to imply a sense of Attraction by ad- libing some "patterns".
Basically, I just like to take on a theme, like attraction, and describe how it
develops. It works well when you can give a vivid description, and when the
words come out naturally.

My main hook into this theme turned out to be a psychology book she was
carrying titled "Theory of Love". So I went with this: "You can be sitting down
with someone, talking, blah, blah, and you can just feel that attraction
flowing". This was OK, but it was probably not enough. The way she reacted was
a little weird, too; she laughed a little, and it threw me off a little bit.
Then I failed to persist later in pushing this state.

I also ran my mouth a little too much. I had said that I didn't know that
attraction could be broken down by scientists, and that you either felt
attraction or not. When I said that, she disagreed with me, and now I had a
logical debate on my hands, which might be interesting to her, but I doubt it
would create any attraction. She got into a whole spiel of how these things
could be isolated in the brain, and some case of a guy who got pierced by a
steel rod that went through his eye and up the upper side of his brain (!!!).
Interesting, but it was something that didn't really move me forward. Instead,
I should have asked her what her theory of love was, and just listened.

There was at least one piece of interesting information that came out of my
statement that you "either feel attraction or you didn't", which she disagreed
me. She told me about a boyfriend whom she claims she hated when she first met
him (because he was cocky/a jerk). Before they even hooked up, she wouldn't
even hang out with him alone; only through her social circle. However, her
feelings changed eventually. During a rough time in her life (brother passed
away, mom & dad got divorced), her friends actually distanced themselves from
her, and this guy was the only guy who showed any care by sticking around,
offering her help, making sure she ate, blah blah. So, eventually she saw him
in a new light.

What was interesting about this is that it could be a structure of how to
attract her. However, where I failed is that I did not find out more about her
other relationships (she mentioned ex-boyfriends more than a few times), to see
if this was just a fluke, or if that was truly the kind of thing that made her
tick. I could have also leveraged the conversation to make her reminisce about
her best relationships, sex with her boyfriends, etc, in order to make her feel
those things again and link them to me.

The only other piece of useful information I got, because she offered it on her
own, was that she had at least one relationship which lasted 4 years. Again,
was this a fluke? Was this normal for her? Did she cheat? How long did it take
for her to get sexual with her boyfriends (if at all)? That's the stuff I
should have found out.

***Comfort: I don't remember if I did this after attempting a "connection" or
before. It may not have mattered.

Again, I went with some light ad-libbed "pattern"; because I feel it sounds
more natural than something rehearsed (but then again, I have nothing to fall
back on when my mind isn't as sharp). My hook into this comfort stage was
trying to pace our situation by saying something like "Here we are talking,
[blah blah blah] and I think it's really cool when you meet someone with whom
you felt totally comfortable, like you've known them for a while, [blah blah]."
I think this was the only "patterning" that had a really visible effect in her,
given her feedback. Basically, she agreed with it and said "Yeah, like relaxed"
in an emphatic way, and then she started talking about how some guys just ask
her a lot of questions (a 100 questions) and how that bores the hell out of her
and she just zones out. At least on that point, I know I was OK.

I did not get that kind of clear reaction when I tried to create a connection
or attraction in the same manner.

***Connection: Same thing. Tried to wing it by ad-libbing, but I literally
choked somewhat, lol. The flow of the "pattern" was not very smooth anyway, and
not very clear, IMHO. I pretty much went with "You know it's so great when you
meet someone and you can feel like you see eye to eye, blah blah [mentioned how
it was an unspoken thing, etc]". I didn't even have a proper hook into it, so
honestly it felt weak, and just like the attraction ad-lib, I didn't quite feel
it registering with her; no visible feedback, unlike the feedback I got on the
comfort stage (either before or after I attempted a connection).

I should have tried again later, but I was not comfortable with repeating
myself (and I did not come up with a new angle on the same theme), so even if
it had an invisible effect I didn't stack it enough to make it a strong

***Sex/relationships: I still thought I was doing OK, because I was under the
impression that she was somewhat "liberated", like the last girl I did. So, I
decided to go directly into sex/relationships talk. I asked her, just like the
last girl I laid, "What type of relationship person are you?" What I neglected
to add was "Are you even the relationship type?". That second question seemed
to work last time as a way of getting her to open up about any sex that
happened outside a "relationship", so that's why I kind of regret not
remembering to use it.

Anyway, she did mention that right now she was focusing exclusively on family
and studies, so I took that to mean that she was OK with having sex outside a
relationship, because she's gotta be taking care of that somehow if she doesn't
have/want a boyfriend right now. AGain, I should have dug deeper, because it
just left me taking stabs in the dark trying to hit her with the right things
to say.

I mentioned how "i don't like it when girls assume you are into a bf/gf
relationship just because you slept together." This worked real great with the
last girl I used it on, because she was that type of girl. With HBPsychologist,
it seemed to strike a right chord, but maybe not in the way I really wanted it
to. She mentioned how some guys she had gone out with, would start talking
about commitment and being exclusive within the first two "dates". That's all
good, but thinking about it now, she didn't follow my lead into talking about
sex, and instead re-framed it in terms of "dates". It might seem like a small
thing, but I personally think there is some significance there as far as her
personality is concerned, or at least as far as the quality of
connection/attraction that I had achieved with her (maybe a combination of the

By the way, I tried not to give the impression that we were on a "date", but
maybe the fact that I opened her directly with the "I don't mean to interrupt
you, blah blah, but I think you're kinda cute" may have put me in that frame
from the very beginning.

***More sex/relationship talk: I tried to go into the Natural Woman theme (a
theme about society's double standard regarding women's sexuality), and even
though this theme is pure gold, my ad-lib wasn't up to par. I used a semi-made
up story about a female friend of mine. Basically, I was trying to convey in
between the lines that this best friend of mine was a free spirit when it came
to sex, and that through her confiding in me, I learned a lot about the double
standards women are put through. I must have really fucked it up, because
HBPsychologist seemed to think that I was talking about things like women going
for a career (???). Maybe she was consciously playing dumb, and trying to
reframe it, but if that was the case, she's an excellent actor. :-)

So, I actually had to be more explicit and spell it out for her, which IMHO
makes the theme less effective and more like a direct attempt to manipulate her
or convey a message.I had to say that my friend got around a bit, and had a bit
of a reputation, blah blah. Now I think it was pretty bad; who knows what kind
of feelings I was creating in her by saying that. I also explained how women
did have desires, goals, dreams, etc that they didn't even tell their friends,
but by then I think this was already in damage control land. I mean, she did
seem OK with that, but the whole thing was not smooth or subtle.

This actually made her say how some people do wait and are more reserved about
sex, and then she started telling me about a friend of her own who was the type
of girl who waited a long time until she got intimate with someone like that,
blah blah. It did occur to me that she was "patterning" me too, or at least
sending me a message between the lines (which I dismissed shortly after for the
reasons I'll get into below). In the end, I had to say that I did respect
whatever choice people made, but that I just wanted people to show me the
'real' them, and not try to pretend they were one way or the other.

One interesting thing was one comment she made in response to the "Natural
Woman" theme, specifically the part where it talks about how society puts
certain restrictions/expectations on women, etc. So, HBPsychologist took that
and said that that is why she didn't let anyone put expectations on her, and
how it wasn't good to put expectations on others because you could end up in
disappointment. It was vague enough to make me wonder whether she was talking
in general, or just about my chances of getting in her pants. :-) 0

Anyway, despite these two weird moments, I still ended up under the impression
that it was more likely that she was a "secret slut". I became more convinced
when as a result of our Natural Woman talk, and my comments about how my female
friend and I trusted each other with everything, HBPsychologist also mentioned
that she told her friends "everything about everything". She didn't say it
directly, but I assumed we were talking about sex, and I also was assumed it
included ONS as well as sex with boyfriends.

Thinking back, I think that maybe, just maybe, I overestimated how liberal she

***Extraction: Towards the end, I was under the impression that it was more
likely that it was ON than not, so I made my pitch to extract her to my apt,
using my dog as a pretext. As soon as I said that, and we started getting up
from our table at the coffee shop, she mentioned needed to go soon and study.
In the past, except for a few occasions this has meant they're going to give me
a hard time getting into their pants. However, since I got the same excuse with
girl I laid last, I figured odds were that this time it meant nothing as well.
Obviously, with HBPsychologist, I think it was a real warning that I hadn't
laid my groundwork properly yet.

So, anyhow, I ignored the objection, and walked her to my apt. We played with
my dog for a few moments, and then I brought her into my room (we spent
probably no more than 10 minutes there until she left, maybe less). Before she
went into my room, there was a bit of hesitation there, kind of subtle. Like
she stayed playing with my dog, until I repeated that she could come in and let
the dog out.

Eventually she did come in, and I sat down to look for some pictures on my
computer. I told her she could sit down, but she wouldn't. She didn't even
object verbally, but just wouldn't. I told her she could take off her coat, but
she wouldn't do that either (she also was still carrying her purse). So, after
a minute or two, while I still pretended to mess around with the laptop, I got
up and offered to hang her coat, but no dice. I did take her purse, gently,
from her hands and laid it on the bed. And I thought, OK at least I'm getting
some compliance.

Anyway, I fired up a music video, while I'm sitting down, and she's still
standing up, arms crossed. I grabbed one her hands and held on to it, then the
other hand, and she didn't pull them away. Still no eye contact, but I'm
thinking that she's letting me hold her hands (a little progress), and she's
just a little shy, which I've dealt with before. So, with this in mind, I'm
thinking my chances are pretty good that she'll kiss with me, and then from
there it might be an easy lay. So, as I'm holding her hands, I try to pull her
in gently for the kiss, but no, she starts laughing a little bit, and says she
has to go. I don't even remember if she let me pull her in all the way, or not.

OK, I've dealt with a little bit of resistance like that before, from shy
girls, so I get up, and persisted a little bit by moving in close to her, still
holding her hands. And then, without thinking, I told her "I find you
attractive" which probably was weak, and tried to gofor it again, but no. Then
she said again she had to go, but that she had fun, whatever that means. She
started walking towards the door in the room, and then to the door heading out
of my apt. I walked with her, trying to stall, and I blocked the door
unintentionally, and not for long. I tried for the kiss once more, and she
rebuffed me again. Then I said something even stupid because I was horny and my
ego was hurting: "So no kiss, hm" and she just said "No, but good try". She was
still kind of smiling, and by this point I wasn't sure if she was laughing at
me or what. :-)

I just let her go at this point, and I just watched her from my door as she
left. She did look back as she walked down the hall, but I didn't even walk her
out of the building. She might have even said "sorry", but I don't' remember.
There was no real goodbye, see ya later type of stuff. The vibe, for me at
least, left me feeling kind of weird. I know that at least I had achieved great
rapport with her, and pretty good comfort up to the kiss attempt. I'm not sure
if that was undone after I put on the moves, and after we parted ways. I don't
know about how she felt after that, and I guess I'll find out when I attempt to
re-connect with her; if the phone line goes limp from now on, then I'll know
for sure.

As far as the kiss attempt, the only thing I think I should have tried would be
to have to pace her first about feeling comfortable, feeling a good
connection/vibe, and then gone for it. I have done this with at least two girls
who were giving me a hard time about kissing them, but it didn't occur to me at
the time. I could have tried freezing her out, but I think she just would have
left, who knows.

***Miscellaneous stuff that came up during conversation:

- Somewhere in all this I did the 4 magic questions, which probably didn't do
anything. Neither good nor bad.
- Kino was OK, but like the previous girl I laid, she didn't return any of it.
- One of her ex-boyfriends used to live on my street, and she mentioned that as
we walked to my place. I don't know what state this may have put her in, though
she didn't look affected.
- She kind of checked out some tall blonde rugged/good-looking dude as he
walked out of the coffee shop (he came back seconds later). Her eye contact
with me was really good, but who knows if he was in her line of vision the
whole time, and that somehow created even more distraction. Call me paranoid.
- She wasn't born here, but definitely very Americanized, at least on the
- I gather that most of her boyfriends have been White, with a Laotian guy
thrown somewhere in there.
- Focus on career first, and then family. Not into dating right now (which is
why I said the thing about not liking it when women expect a relationship after
having sex)
- She doesn't quite like her job, so I didn't talk about that too much. She is
excited about going back to college to get her Masters in psychology
- I may have offered too much info on this aspect by saying I didn't quite
enjoy my time there because it was a commuter school. This was only part of
fluff, but it may have said something about me which did not work to my


I know the fuckup was probably mostly due to the mediocre execution of my
strategy. I'm still not sure whether I overestimated how sexually liberal she
is, either. A lot of questions that I should have gotten answered had I played
my cards right.

***My next move:

I have gotten makeouts out of some situations like these in the past. I've
never gotten a lay out of them so far, though, so I'm more inclined to move on
to other women, or just making this girl a friend (since I don't have any
female friends).

However, if I were to give it another try, I think I'd just wait around one or
two weeks before calling her. Face to face, or on the phone, I'd try to get the
information I failed to gather about her past relationships, her needs, her
wants. Pretty much, I'd re-tread my strategy and try to execute it properly
this time, with special focus on gathering more info on her past relationships,
what she thinks she needs, what she thinks she wants, getting her life story
straight, and trying to create the necessary states/emotions with that

Any feedback appreciated. Thanks guys.

Unless otherwise noted, this article is Copyright©2005 by "little_grasshopper21" with implicit permission provided to for reproduction. Any other use is prohibited without the explicit permission of the original author.


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