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Exclusive Interview with “Zen Dragon”

mASF post by xenoGEAR

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Exclusive Interview with “Zen Dragon”
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mASF post by "xenoGEAR"
posted on: mASF forum: General Discussion newsgroup, August 8, 2003

Interview w/"Zen Dragon"(Full Interview)

"Decyphering the Zen"

by Xeno

Sup mASF'ers. It's been a while since I posted up an interview but you guys are
getting this free of charge. Only for the fellow loyal guys here. I talked
recently with Zen Dragon and this interview covers the nuts and bolts of him. I
cut the crap and went straight down on HIM. This interview will hopefully be
more useful to others who requested it this way. It's super condensed and has a
lot of valuable information that can be applied to your game rather than some
opinions about things and people.

One of the top known mASF'ers, Zen Dragon advocates the game in his own way on
his own terms. You may agree with him or either disagree with him, but one way
or another he knows his own game. Included in this interview are his breakdown
of his game, the pros and cons of his Juggler workshop experience, seduction
gone mainstream, the recent Boston 2003 PUA event, the ultimate tips for the
regular AFC, "value providing" kino, family upbringings, LJBF incidents &
situations, body language mechanics, inner game», sexual projection, rapport
techniques, and more.

We start the interview

Xeno: What is your full name?
Zen Dragon: Just Zen Dragon.

Xeno: What is your age?
Zen Dragon: I’m turning 27 in like 2 weeks.

Xeno: Where do you currently reside?
Zen Dragon: Washington D.C.

Xeno: How is life going for you at the moment?
Zen Dragon: (at this point a HB called) It’s uplifting and full of hope lol.
Because that HB just said, “Lets get together Sunday.” Haha, so at this moment,
it’s all good.

Xeno: Could you give a quick breakdown summary of your game?
Zen Dragon: I say to myself, "Ok, i want to find another girl to have sex
with.” Then I go to the mall or a dance place or wherever there a lot of girls
around. Then I approach the girl and say hi or leave her alone. I have
conversational rapport or instant date. I look to provide a good experience but
you can't do it with everyone. I understand that. I do my best. If there's
nothing else I can do with this girl, I move on. I never force anything. Force
does not work, I tried. It's not just the girl you're up against, you're up
against the entire universe. You can't control or force the universe to give
you what you want. You can only contribute to it. Ok, so back to the mall. I
keep approaching and with my current karma, usually the 5th or 6th girl would
turn into an instant date and end up fucking in the near future. If that
doesn't happen and the mall closes, I go to a club afterward, and do the same
thing there, only a bit more aggressive and kino based. I'm not worried about
not getting laid because I know if I keep on providing value then I will get
laid. It's been proven from my experience.

Xeno: How long have you been in the game?
Zen Dragon: I've been horny since I was 10 years old. My brother stole some
Japanese porn from the video shop and showed it to me. I've been very horny
ever since.

Xeno: When did you find mASF?
Zen Dragon: I think about 2 years ago. I found the Pickup Guide first, then
Speed Seduction, then ASF, and then mASF.

Xeno: Do you believe in Gunwitch's method? A lot of people have called him
fake. All criticism aside, what do you truly think of him?
Zen Dragon: I don't know him so there's really nothing to think of. I believe
if you persist, you will get laid but not with the same girl. I don't believe
in forcing things. Persistence means you keep on approaching until you find
someone who's ready and want to fuck you. Forcing out a
"no" is not providing value. So no, I don't believe in it.

Xeno: Now many people have connected you to mmasters. I believe you two are
good buddies and have sarged on separate occasions. How are your beliefs
different from his?
Zen Dragon: I know that's like the public perception haha. Quite honestly, I
don't even know what he is believing these days but I really don't think we're
on the same page.

Xeno: What is your current job?
Zen Dragon: I recruit students for a university. Marketing and sales.

Xeno: Were you at the last Boston 2003 PUA event? What do you think of events
like those? Would you be interested for formhandle to hold a PUA event based in
Washington D.C., the nation's capital?
Zen Dragon: No, I wasn't there. I didn't even know it was there. Yeah, sure,
hold a PUA event here. I'd like to see how these PUA's do in D.C., AKA toughest
place to PU in the world.

Xeno: Has your game gone up tremendously since reading ASF?
Zen Dragon: Yeah, my "game" did, but my lays didn't. I did learn some valuable
lessons from ASF though. Just have to clean out the poison some people are
spreading here. That's the tough part.

Xeno: How many girls have you laid in your lifetime?
Zen Dragon: I lost count..seriously. I know it's not more than 100.

Xeno: Would you like ASF to go public? It could go in the wrong hands and plus
if less people know it, less competition and less AFC's too. What's your take?
Zen Dragon: I think its in the wrong hands already haha. I don't know about
competition. I've met quite a few ASF bros and they all seem to have this
handicap on behaving like a normal guy around girls....if it's anything, I
think the ASF guys are making it easier for the other naturals. Hmm...public, I
would vote against it. Some of us need some privacy.

Xeno: You were at the Juggler Workshop a couple of months ago. How was your
experience there?
Zen Dragon: Juggler is a very nice person. Everyone liked him; I liked him too.
Having that said, I did pay $400 for a service which was promised but not
provided. Maybe he was overwhelmed by the number of guys that were there but he
just kinda gave up on us. I admire the kind of people who would go the extra
mile to provide a good service and my experience with Juggler was the exact
opposite. As far as sarging goes, he approached a few times and he is not shy,
I would say that, but I didn't see his approach going
anywhere either. All of us were there to learn how to get laid but the things
he taught us really have very little do with that. The most valuable thing I
learned from Juggler is the freedom and ability to use myself and my own life
experience as a source of conversation topic and for that gift, I thank him
forever. So I did learn something, just not what I expected. Oh, another thing
is through the workshop, I met BL! I'm eternally grateful for THAT I
love the guy. He is just such an amazing and wonderful person.

Xeno: Who in your mind is a perfect 10?
Zen Dragon: My mother haha. Ok seriously. Ummm...let's see. I think that girl
in American Wedding whom 2 guys were going after was very cute and had a great
body and a wonderful personality. For that, I give her a 10. Let's see who
else. Give me some names and I'll tell you what I think of them.

Xeno: Kristin Kreuk?
Zen Dragon: Maybe...a 7? I know Mike(mmasters) likes that type too. I know I'm
so getting flamed for this, but I would give Britney Spears a 9.5. If she's
taller, I'd give her a 10. I love her attitude. So that's my 10.

Xeno: What kind of traits should a HB10 have in your mind?
Zen Dragon: A very cute face, not mature looking or sexy but cute, a great
body, and a wonderful attitude. I think how a girl handles herself and how she
talks and the sound of her voice and how she smells all contribute to her
rating. This one girl I'm seeing, she has the cutest face and very nice
body...but what I really love about her is her voice. Oh my god, I can totally
enjoy her just simply from listening to her talking. Good words come out of her
mouth too. Some girl look all nice from the outside and when they talk, it's
all white trash. I think nothing can be more disgusting than that.

Xeno: To all the AFC's out there, what advice and tips would you give for the
first timer newbs?
Zen Dragon: Ok, here are my tips to the guys who want to get laid and to have
enjoyable relationships with the girls of their dreams. Maybe not everyone is
looking for that, but that's what my aim is.
1. You can't CONTROL anyone into liking you or wanting to have sex with you
because for a lay to happen, a lot and i mean A LOT of things in the universe
have to line up in place. If you think that you can CONTROL the entire universe
to give you things, then you'll face a lot of frustration in your life. (at
this point, his computer shuts down- technical issues I suppose).
2. You want your attitude and your thinking and your actions to be based on
attracting and connecting and giving and serving instead of going out to "get"
sex. Go out to provide a valuable experience for the girls you find attractive.
If you want the universe to give you what you want, you must get off the
outcome and start giving. You can't give what you don't have. If you don't have
a life, if you are poor in building rapport, if you don't know how to love, if
you have a lot of hate and anger inside of you, if you are not a fun person to
be around with, if you suck in bed...then there's really not much value you can
give to girls. You want to work on yourself so you have the ability to provide
a valuable experience to girls. An experience so enjoyable that they would come
back again and again. If you see them that way, you will treat them that way
and they will respond to you that way. See them as the way you want them to be
and be firm with your own vision. Don't be moved by their response to you. If
the teacher believes in his student and continues to believe and encourage his
student, then the student will become great.

Xeno: What kind of state builders do you use? Do you push the girls into a lot
of different states or do you let the convo go naturally?
Zen Dragon: My "approach" is very casual and smooth. For instance, I would try
on necklaces and then turn around to the girl and say "what do you think." Then
if she responds and shows interest, I take the sarge from there. It's hard to
say what state I intentionally put her in. It all depends on context. My focus
is not on what state to put her in. My focus is attracting off her response to
me. It's a bit like juggler. I'm the one who's approach but eventually she
turns out to be the one that shows interest and want to continue and ask me
questions and stuff.

Xeno: What kind of attitude do you impose? A "I dont give a fuck about
anything" attitude or something else?
Zen Dragon: The ideal attitude and vibe I like to send out is that I'm able to
approach you out of nowhere and offer you great experience of rapport. How you
respond does not affect me a bit because I'm not in for your response. I'm in
for the fun of the interaction. I can become very intimate and very sexual once
you allow yourself to open up to me. You can be a bitch all you want and I'll
just do what I do until I don't feel like doing it anymore. I'm capable of
responding to hate with love. I will walk away the moment I don't value this
interaction anymore. Emotionally and mentally, I'm bigger than you are. I'm
like the ocean where your glass of water will melt in.

Xeno: Which people from the mASF community have you met IRL?
Zen Dragon: I’ve met Juggler, BL, mmasters, dcx, roosh, and chaco. That’s about

Xeno: For your game, what kind of body language do you emphasize on?
Zen Dragon: I tend to have a very open body gesture because I see myself as the
ocean which she can pour herself in. There are a few things I'm conscious of. I
wouldn't lean too much toward her. I do watch that. I wouldn't pick my nose
while talking with her. That's about it.

Xeno: What is your goal with seduction. Is it for self improvement or to lay
hot chicks? I personally like to just play the game and make out.
Zen Dragon: That's something I still need to figure out. It's hard to be
committed to a specific goal when there are thousands of guys telling you
what's good to have. Deep
inside, I know I want something lasting and fulfilling but deep in the cock I
know I want to fuck more hot chicks at the expense of intimacy and fulfillment.
The day I figure out what I really want and commit to is the day I will be

Xeno: What keeps you motivated to sarge?
Zen Dragon: It varies day by day. Sometimes it's the lack of sex and intimacy.
Sometimes I have some new ideas and inspiration that I want to go and try out.
Sometimes I watch TV and there's a hot girl in it and I say to myself "hmmmm
I've never fucked someone looking like that."

Xeno: Will you plan on getting married in the future?
Zen Dragon: Yeah, I think so. I don't want to be the "old man in the club" as
Chris Rock puts it lol.

Xeno: How is your relationship with your parents? Are you close with them?
Zen Dragon: When I was 14, my mom took me and my sister and moved away from my
dad. That's when we left Taiwan and came to the U.S. My dad was an asshole,
alcoholic, and a total player. His reputation was known all over town like with
how many girl friends he had while we were with him. I swore to myself that I
would never do that to my family so before I start one, I need to get this
horndog gene off my system.

Xeno: Do you ever think that one day that you will close the curtains and hang
up all this PUA game stuff and go on with your normal life?
Zen Dragon: I think one day I'll find peace in this PUA game and my "normal
life" and the two will blend into one. Either that or I will develop a split

Xeno: What kind of material do you use for your attraction game? You implement
C&F, qualifying, and roleplaying, or any of that sort?
Zen Dragon: I'm naturally funny so I don't need to try. I tell girls what I
want and like in a girl. I guess you would call that qualifying. I do
roleplaying a lot. That's just because I still behave like a kid. I play the 4
magic question game a lot. I find it very interesting and girls enjoy it.

Xeno: What kind of strategies do you use when you are in rapport? Do you just
throw questions out there just to know her?
Zen Dragon: Pace and lead. I pace her state and response while amping up the
level of intimacy and sexual vibe. That's my aim. As for the specifics I do,
you'll have to give me a specific context.

Xeno: How do you apply KINO progression subtely so you don't come off as
creeping her out at first? Is there a specific order you implement or just go
Zen Dragon: If I have to be thinking about applying kino then it will creep her
out anyhow. Touching is the most basic form of human intimacy. It comes out
naturally when two people are in rapport. I do consciously what I call "value
providing" kino. Kino like massage, touching her in a sexual way, touching her
to allow her to experience intimacy, etc. I fire off these things from pacing
her and knowing she is ready for them.

Xeno: Do you show your sexual state/sexuality in a confident way right off the
bat, something like Gunwitch does? Do you just take things slowly?
Zen Dragon: I'm a man. I feel sexual desire when I see a girl that I'm
attracted to. I do not suppress that neither do I indulge it. It's just there
and I go on with my sarging in the presence of it.

Xeno: Do you think with girls whom you have been "LJBF'ed" before, should you
run game on them? It seems like you would come off as incongruent and it
wouldn't work out as you like since the girls have already painted an image in
their head and have made judgements and conclusions about you and you can't
necessarily change that unless you do a Turn Around(TA)? Is it even worth it?
Zen Dragon: Once you glue a label in your mind, it becomes YOUR reality. I mean
what is LJBF? People change their minds everyday. People change their decisions
everyday. People feel different about things everyday; especially girls. LJBF
is only real in YOUR mind because you found evidence of it through your
interaction with her. I persist
until I feel like it's not worthy for ME to pursue anymore. It has nothing to
do with whether in ASF definition I'm LJBF or not.

Xeno: What kind of character do you like to project when you sarge for girls? A
bad boy, classy, or something else?
Zen Dragon: I project who I am at the very moment. Your emotions, your
attitude, your focus is a little different every moment. You can't help with
that. That's just being human. But what's in the core is always the same. If
your confidence, no matter what happens, how the girl tests you or squeezes
you, you'll handle it confidently. If you're a loving person, no matter what
the situation is you would try to respond with love. If you know what you want
in a sarge, no matter how things change, you would adjust yourself toward that
goal. Sometimes I feel like a bad boy. Sometimes I feel like Bhudda. It doesn't
matter. I just flow with it because I know what's in my core of being. I know
what I can handle.

Xeno: What is your preference to sarge more, Groups or lonewolfs?
Zen Dragon: Lonewolfs.

Xeno: What kind of tactics do you use when you're doing groups? Mystery Method
Style or something of your own?
Zen Dragon: I don't approach groups. At least I don't approach with the intent
of sarging in mind. So you're asking the wrong person lol.

Xeno: Are you planning on releasing any audio or video tape footage of your
sarges any time soon or have considered it?

Zen Dragon: I don't see how these things will help anyone. Yeah, you can see
how I make the girl laugh and giggle and how she DDB on me big time but how do
you know I'll lay her. How do you know that's not my lucky day? How do you know
that's not the lay I deserve after having approached 100 girls already that
day. To me, the only thing you can learn from watching another person sarge is
his attitude toward the game and the way of dealing with people. As far as
getting laid, until you go out there and do it 1000 times yourself, you won't
realize what works and what doesn't.

Xeno: I remember you saying something about focusing on improving on ONE area
of your game, and your whole game will get the results that you desire. Could
you elaborate on that?
Zen Dragon: Ok, this is what I said. Everyone of us has a gift. It could be
literally anything but not everyone uses it. Too many guys listen to the
"experts" in ASF and actually try to repress their own gift and force themself
to use someone else's gift. I'm not saying you can't learn from another person.
I'm saying there is something you are
already very good at. Recognize it and use it. When you use your own gift, you
will naturally attract the type of girls who are meant to be attract by you. If
you don't use it and try to force yourself to use other peoples' gifts, then
you won't attract shit. Each one of us are born to serve the world in a certain
way. Each one of us has a place where we can offer value. And each one of us
has that gift to offer value to this place. This is not about how to lay every
chick you see on the street with some generalized seduction method. This is
about finding your place in the world and making the best use out of it. I
really don't know how else to explain this. If people don't get it, then that's
really too bad.

Xeno: Where are some good places to sarge in your own preference?
Zen Dragon: I like the mall, the club, swing dance, any place where I can move
from one girl to the next without having to spend too much time and effort to
find the next girl. Yes, this is in a big way a numbers game. Whoever disagrees
with that is an idiot lol. Oh, concerts and festivals are good places too.

Xeno: Many people have followed your method and have said thats its a good way
if you want to screen determine types of chicks? Is that the message you want
to imply?
Zen Dragon: I don't care what method you use. You are not going to lay every
girl you see on the street. Whenever you use whatever method to get a lay, then
you've found a right match: a match of you, the method, and the girl. I don't
see what I do as any different than anything else out there. Plus, I DON'T HAVE
A METHOD!!! I don't know how many times I have to say that before people stop
labeling me.

Xeno: Do you think one should work on inner game» first then consume the
material or the other way around?
Zen Dragon: I think one has to know who he is, know why he is here, know why he
wants do this, know his place in the world, then realize the only way for him
to get what he wants is to massively give that to others. And through giving,
there will be failures, there will be rejections, and there will be mistakes.
But as long as he keeps that intent in mind, then his attitude will flow, his
actions will flow, he will walk through fire without fear, he will get flaked
on a meeting..standing alone in front of Starbucks and feel totally fine
because he is not into her for her response. He's in for the fun of the
He's in for the pleasure of performing his ability to give. He can turn around
immediately and give what he wants to someone else. Once he has the intent and
attitude fixed in place, then he can learn whatever he wants from ASF and it
will only be another means to give. The more he learns, the more he will be
able to give. Haha, people are sooooooooooooooooo going to take this the wrong
way but that's ok. I said what I had to say. It's off my chest. People can
process this however they want. I don't care.

Xeno: Do you use canned material ever or just what pops in your mind?
Zen Dragon: I think the "4 questions game" is "canned material", so yes. But I
do not plan out a sarge like "I'm going to say this, then do that, then do
this." It's an interaction, meaning what you say and do has a lot to do with
what she is doing and saying. You cannot flow in an interaction by planning
ahead on what to say and do. Having that said, yes you CAN have a structure in
mind and have an idea where you want this interaction to go. That's about it.
Once you know that, it's all just pacing and leading, pacing and leading.

Xeno: Do you think giving compliments to a girl is ideal once in a while when
you feel like it?
Zen Dragon: Compliments are only compliments when they're given spontaneously.
You don't first think "should I say this? will she like it? will she think I'm
sucking up? blah blah blah." I don't compliment unless there's something about
her that really impresses me and I just want to get it off my chest. Yes, I do
think giving compliments to "get" something back is very lame and supplicative.
But I DO intentionally give SOI's. For example, "I like you", "you are the
coolest girl ever", "I like people with a nice sense of humor", etc. The girl
usually feels a warmth in the heart when I say these things because I'm as
congruent as it gets, as sincere as it gets, when I give SOI's. I intend to get
nothing back. All I want is for both of us to feel that warmth in the heart.

Xeno: Do you have any current LTR's right now? What do you think is the purpose
of it if you can get any other girl you like?
Zen Dragon: No, I am not in any committed and exclusive relationship. To me,
the purpose of it is you have the right to ask the girl to not sleep with
another guy. You have the exclusive right to fuck her and to experience
intimacy with her. Otherwise, if you're going around fucking other girls, then
she should be able to do the same. So I think when you find that ONE girl that
you never want to let go, you would want the relationship to be exclusive. You
only love and fuck her and she only loves you and fucks you.

Xeno: Any last messages and shout outs to the mASF community and real world?
DICKS..IT'S NOT COOL AT ALL!!!!! That's it lol.

*Note from the author, Xeno: I think Zen Dragon is a very down to earth kind of
guy. He is not afraid of the outside world and he seems to be living in his own
world which is cool. He seems very natural and speaks what is on his mind. I'd
like to chill with him and sarge sometime.

*This written material may not be copied, redistributed, duplicated,
reproduced, or manipulated in any form. All written material here adheres
belongs to Xeno.*

Unless otherwise noted, this article is Copyright©2003 by "xenoGEAR" with implicit permission provided to for reproduction. Any other use is prohibited without the explicit permission of the original author.


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