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Re: The L-word, collected responses (v. long)

mASF post by hotlab

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Re: The L-word, collected responses (v. long)
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mASF post by "hotlab"
posted on: alt.seduction.relationships, May 5, 2005

Unconditional love works for me... it deserves a few words:-)

On Sat, 07 May 2005 18:05:00 -0400, quitesomebody wrote:

>>I claim more: a woman is incapable
>>of "unconditionally" loving a provider,
>>only an alpha male can trigger this
>>emotion in a women.
>and i'm actually inclined to agree with the first part. women will not love a
>provider unconditionally. after all, his role with her is contingent on his
>ability to play that role and him continuing to play that role better and in
>more satisfying ways than other available providers.

Deep down no man wants a woman who's just looking for a provider... he
just might resort to display this capability because he has no other
seductive qualities or doesn't know better yet.

The classification of males into lover/provider or alpha/beta or
player/AFC is very simplistic. I guess nobody could ever give a
precise definition. And when using this term it is always being
forgotten that different people have different goals in life. So it's
absolutely useless if the player says to the normal guy "You must
become like me, because I have laid 500 women", when the normal guy
would be happy in a monogameous relationship. Different goals require
different strategies.

Way better is a classification into males with and males without
seductive qualitities as it has been presented for example by Robert
Greene in his book "Art of Seduction". But these archetypes are common
sense anyway. Greene merely has analyzed them more closely.

I think it's easy to agree upon the statement that males with
seductive qualities get women and males without seductive qualities
don't or maybe they manage to get women who play them for other
qualities than theiir attractiveness as a lover.

And by recognizing that seductive qualities come in different flavors
it is also easy to see why males who behave very different during
their attempts to seduce a woman can be equally successful and also it
is easy to see why one seductive approach, like for example
unconditional love, doesn't work with every woman.

And this explains the "struggle of systems" here on the board.

For me unconditional love works perfectly. My woman is in deep love
for me. I'm still amazed about how much she does for me and how much
she's going to change her life just to be with me. I never thought
that this is possible.

In Robert Greene's book unconditional love is called "regression":

"People who have experienced a certain kind of pleasure in the past
will try to repeat or relive it. The deepest-rooted and most
pleasurable memories are usually those from earliest childhood, and
are often unconsciously associated with a parental figure. Bring your
targets back to that point by placing yourself in the oedipal triangle
and positioning them as the needy child. Unaware of the cause of their
emotional response, they will fall in love with you. Alternatively,
you too can regress, letting them play the role of the protecting,
nursing parent. In either case you are offering the ultimate fantasy:
the chance to have an intimate relationship with mommy or daddy, son
or daughter."

This doesn't work of course with LSEs.

The seducer archetype who masters this seduction strategy is called
"The Ideal Lover".

"Most people have dreams in their youth that get shattered or worn
down with age. They find themselves disappointed by people, events,
reality, which cannot match their youthful ideals. Ideal Lovers thrive
on people's broken dreams, which become lifelong fantasies. You long
for romance? Adventure? Lofty spiritual communion? The Ideal Lover
reflects your fantasy. He or she is an artist in creating the illusion
you require, idealizing your portrait. In a world of disenchantment
and baseness, there is limitless seductive power in following the path
of the Ideal Lover."

The worlds most famous seducer, Casanova, was an Ideal Lover.

This is basically what I'm doing with my woman. I'm giving her
unconditional love and I'm creating lots of illusions. Of course at
times the illusions collapse, because my resources, time and money,
aren't sufficient. But this doesn't hurt because of the unconditional
love and because I create new illusions immediately.

I realized at some time last year, after trying all kinds of other
things to seduce women and after reading a spiritual book by Deepak
Chopra about love, that this is the way to go for me. Not only because
it fits best to my personality, but also because else I attract the
wrong women.

I recommend everybody to read the chapter "Is Attachment really Love?"
in this book, because what is called "conditional love" here, isn't
really love... it is attachment. And attachment comes out of a need
and and an insecurity about oneself. In a relationship based on
attachment, control usually plays a major role. A relationship based
on love is determined by allowance. Chopra calls this non-attachment.

I also dealt for some time with the I-Ching which contains a lot of
wisdom about influencing and leading people. There I found what works
for me in this respect and what fits to the above sedcution strategy
of the Ideal Lover. It is described in Hexagram 17 "Follow/Believe":

"In order to obtain a following one must first know how to adapt
oneself. If a man would rule he must first learn to serve, for only in
this way does he secure from those below him the joyous assent that is
necessary if they are to follow him. If he has to obtain a following
by force or cunning, by conspiracy or by creating factions, he
invariably arouses resistance, which obstructs willing adherence. But
even joyous movement can lead to evil consequences, hence the added
stipulation, "Perseverance furthers" that is, consistency in doing
right together with "No blame. " Just as we should not ask others to
follow us unless this condition is fulfilled, so it is only under this
condition that we can in turn follow others without coming to harm."

The disclaimer is important, because there will be women who will
selfishly abuse such a treatment of them. I guess this is what might
have happened to OceanEyes in his marriage.

This is why the screening is so important.

First we have to screen for a woman to whom we are attracted and who
falls for our seductive qualities

"The perfect victim has some natural quality that attracts you. The
strong emotions this quality inspires will help make your seductive
maneuvers seem more natural and dynamic. The perfect victim allows for
the perfect chase."

Second we have to find out if she's merely trying to play us or if
she's attracted to us too.

This is what I did and I'm still amazed about how perfectly this works
for me. I think one reason for this is that when you know what you
want you are able to take an opportunity immediately. Quoting Chopra:
"Love is everywhere. You just have to see it."

I never get any bullshit from my woman. No such things as waiting for
phone calls... she spent a fortune to talk with me... I spent a
fortune too. No such things as her trying to qualify me... she's happy
to follow me with whatever I suggest... it is very easy to lead her.
No such things as worrying about wether she might cheat on me.... I
never was so sure about a woman. Last night she was partying...
drinking and dancing... until 6 a.m. when she called me, slightly
drunk, to tell me that she wants to make love with me. Later she told
me that her mother was angry that she called me in a drunken state.
Her: "No problem mother. he is so nice."

The reason why she's attracted that strong is that I give her exactly
what she's longing for... and that is unconditional love.

I allow her to be as she is and I told her 1000 times that I love her.
She can't get enough of hearing it and says it a lot herself.

Of course she has been testing me... but basically only for being a

What works for me doesn't necessarily work for everybody, but I guess
it could work for a lot of the more introverted guys on this board.

First step in becoming successful is to eliminate the anti-seductive
qualities, commonly denoted on this board as "being beta" although a
lot of guys who claim to be Alpha show many of these negative traits:

"Seducers draw you in by the focused, individualized attention they
pay to you. Anti-Seducers are the opposite: insecure, self-absorbed,
and unable to grasp the psychology of another person, they literally
repel. Anti-Seducers have no self-awareness, and never realize when
they are pestering, imposing, talking too much. They lack the subtlety
to create the promise of pleasure that seduction requires. Root out
anti-seductive qualities in yourself, and recognize them in
others-there is no pleasure or profit in dealing with the

Next step is to choose the seducer archetype that fits closest to
one's own personality and strengthen the relevant traits.

What is denoted as being a player on this board basically correlates
with the "Rake", a very successful seducer archetype:

"A woman never quite feels desired and appreciated enough. She wants
attention, but a man is too often distracted and unresponsive. The
Rake is a great female fantasy-figure-when he desires a woman, brief
though that moment may be, he will go to the ends of the earth for
her. He may be disloyal, dishonest, and amoral, but that only adds to
his appeal. Unlike the normal, cautious male, the Rake is delightfully
unrestrained, a slave to his love of women. There is the added lure of
his reputation: so many women have succumbed to him, there has to be a
reason. Words are a woman's weakness, and the Rake is a master of
seductive language. Stir a woman's repressed longings by adapting the
Rake's mix of danger and pleasure."

These are the kind of guys who always have several women and who have
no problem at all to keep them attracted for long periods of time
without ever starting a committed relationship.

But this doesn't work for everybody either and it doesn't work with
every woman.

With respect to the MBTI, I think only extraverted realists, maybe
some conceptualists, are able to authentically follow this strategy. I
couldn't do this and the main reason is: "I don't want to". It's just
plain to cumbersome for me to permantly pursue and control different

The corresponding leading strategy according to the I-Ching is
hexagram 43 "Break-Through/Resoluteness", commonly referred to "being
Alpha" on this board.

"In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however,
definite rules that must not be disregarded, if it is to succeed.
First, resolution must be based on a union of strength and
friendliness. Second, a compromise with evil is not possible; evil
must under all circumstances be openly discredited. Nor must our own
passions and shortcomings be glossed over. Third, the struggle must
not be carried on directly by force. If evil is branded, it thinks of
weapons, and if we do it the favor of fighting against it blow for
blow, we lose in the end because thus we ourselves get entangled in
hatred and passion."

But this is by far not the only strategy to lead people. I mentioned
another one above. Here's one more... hexagramm 58, The Joyous:

"The joyous mood is infectious and therefore brings success. But joy
must be based on steadfastness if it is not to degenerate into
uncontrolled mirth. Truth and strength must dwell in the heart, while
gentleness reveals itself in social intercourse. In this way one
assumes the right attitude toward man and achieves something. Under
certain conditions, intimidation without gentleness may achieve
something momentarily, but not for all time. When, on the other hand,
the hearts of men are won by friendliness, they are led to take all
hardships upon themselves willingly, and if need be will not shun
death itself, so great is the power of joy over men."

There are some amazing guys out there who master being a Rake
perfectly. I was following a long thread in a German discussion group,
where a woman seeks for help since half a year to get out of a
relationship with a Rake, which lasts already 3 years. This woman is
totally in love with him, but at the same time feels lots of pain. She
describes him as giving her an overwhelming pleasure and lots of
illusions about a common life. But from his point of view he claims to
be single and that they are merely having a friendship. When she tries
to start to talk with him about how to proceed with the relationship,
he just tells her that he doesn't think that they fit perfectly and he
merely wants a friendship. Then he dissappears for two weeks and she
knows that he now directs his attention to one of is Ex's. He has a
lot of them. This woman feels bad most of the time, but the guy
controls her emotions completely. About every two weeks he turns his
attention again towards her and makes her feel like being in heaven.

Throughout this thread many other women reported that the same has
happened to them. Some have managed with discipline to leave the
relationship, others are still struggling. All of them felt bad most
of the time, but have been kind of addicted to the pleasure they got
occasionally from the Rake. There was also a guy who dealt with a
female Rake, a Siren. He reported the same emotional ups and downs.

The reason I'm reporting this here is that it is way more trustworthy
than anything written on the board here, because it is coming from a
forum where people search for psychological help.

There are other seducer archetypes in Greene's book that can be
considered to be strongly Alpha, for example the Charismatic, but
there are also some very successful ones who don't fit into this
category, like the Charmer or the Dandy.

It's my opinion that to be successful as a Rake or a player, the
underlying personality structure must fit to that. Guys who try to
pretend to be a Rake will fail. Either they will have unhappy
relationships or they are being played.

Anyway, what is the truth about seduction?

For me, the truth is what works for ME and I have found that the
greatest challenge in finding the truth is to know what works and what
doesn't work, because of all the mental filters coming from past
experience or influence by other people, which prevent an unbiased

But without awareness there can be no enlightenment.

The question remains:

Do I love my woman unconditionally?

The answer is:

More everyday, because by doing so our relationship deepens
continuously and this is what I want.

In the beginning I was merely pretending the unconditional love... it
was a strategy. But it was a strategy that worked for me because the
unconditional love is something I strive for in a relationship anyway.
In a sense I applied the NLP technique of "time distortion" and what I
was pretending to be true in the beginning slowly comes true.

I guess my woman did the same. She too pretended to love me in the
beginning . I think she's an "Ideal lover" with respect to her
seduction qualities too.

But in every successful seduction we're not only the seducer but also
the seducee. If there's no exchange in seductive moves, there's no
tension and fun either.


Unless otherwise noted, this article is Copyright©2005 by "hotlab" with implicit permission provided to for reproduction. Any other use is prohibited without the explicit permission of the original author.


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