The Top Pickup Artist Forum On The Internet: Fast Seduction 101

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If you haven’t already visited the   ASF forum or Player Guide web board, now would be a good time to do so… Don’t forget to this site! Fast Seduction 101 now has a product review section.

Can Mr. Nice enter the body…?
3/6/01 8:41:27 AM Eastern Standard Time

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Really off topic but interesting:
Super fast Search engine: http://buster.netfirms.com
The next site came on the subject line of a virus I received:
http://www.2600.com/ The Hacker Quarterly

A couple of macking sites you should find interesting:
http://pfunk.crown.net/~squire/tt/mack/
http://theartofmackin.homestead.com/Theartofmackin.html

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Vincent: Anyway just wanted you to invite you to take a peek at my website.
I don't think I've ever told you - it's at www.pickgirlsup.com

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Ross (Commenting on: >My Comment:  Theo and Divine (Daddy's Little Hypno
Slut) recently
>unsubscribed because they feel that the comments here have been slanted too
>much in a negative way against women, from guys who are only after sex.  My
>first reaction was, "...and your point is...?"  But, seriously, I
understand
>that there is a lot of anger and resentment among guys who are frustrated
>that they haven't been able to be successful with women (or who have had
bad
>experiences) and I think this inevitably will show up in what they write
>here.  It has been said to me on more than one occasion that it seems that
>most of the time when some guy gets very successful with women it was
>spurred on by a degree of rage from some deeply hurtful experience.  I
think
>that to pretend that these feelings aren't there is misleading, but it is
>more important and productive to get past that and change unhealthy
>attitudes to more positive ones.  Comments?

Personally, I think the problem is that such mind-sets cause guys to
miss out on opportunities and see as defeats or set-backs what are
really just easily anticipated and simple tests.

Walking around angry and frustrated is a bad place to start because
it is the mental equivalent of tensing all your muscles in a fight.
Slows you down and actually makes you MORE vulnerable, NOT less.

I'm working on a very hot HB who needs a bit more challenging
before she comes around. While I would have loved to ram her in that
perfect, pert ass of hers the first day I talked to her, I'm relaxed
as I keep challenging her until I hit the right buttons. No problem
for me.

With the angry mindset, I would have simply given up too soon. As
it is, I am having fun and really just don't care so much about the
outcome.

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Justin (similar comments came in also from Vincent):
I was on advancedmacking.com.  I want to warn you - I
don't know how well it works - but I e-mailed almost
all of the people who are on the testimonials page and
9/10 came back as Delivery failures! (no existing
users).  I don't want to say that it's fake
testimonials but it doesn't seem likely that so many
people would cancel their e-mail addresses or
whatever.  Just want to see what you think - if you subscribed.

Anthony Berger (the Author) responded:  As for the
testimonials, they are from 1999 and I'm in the
process of re-designing the site together with its
content. I'll check on those emails, but I'll probably
just put some newer testimonials up.

My Comment:  That website has to be one of the more enticing
seduction sites I have ever seen, and I hope we get some comments
from guys who bought the product.

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Alan:
> Theo:
> I think the gang could benefit from discussing their views on women,
perhaps
> at your request.  I live in Argentina, where people are pretty obsessed
> with sex. The fact that I find the comments about women on your list harsh
> is a bad sign.
>
> My Comment:  Theo and Divine (Daddy's Little Hypno Slut) recently
> unsubscribed because they feel that the comments here have been slanted
too
> much in a negative way against women, from guys who are only after sex.
My
> first reaction was, "...and your point is...?"  But, seriously, I
understand
> that there is a lot of anger and resentment among guys who are frustrated
> that they haven't been able to be successful with women (or who have had
bad
> experiences) and I think this inevitably will show up in what they write
> here.  It has been said to me on more than one occasion that it seems that
> most of the time when some guy gets very successful with women it was
> spurred on by a degree of rage from some deeply hurtful experience.  I
think
> that to pretend that these feelings aren't there is misleading, but it is
> more important and productive to get past that and change unhealthy
> attitudes to more positive ones.  Comments?
>

Here is an edited version of a recent post of mine on ASF:
Here is a massive upgrade in my thinking that happened recently: I
don't try to control the chicks I approach. I've let go of that.

I now approach them in the spirit of offering to share whatever
I'm feeling at the time: horniness, curiosity, good mood,
creativity/humor, willingness to listen and connect on an emotional
level. Any of those, or all of those. Whatever I'm feeling.

When approaching her (and I'm in good state), I feel free to do
what I choose. She's free to do what she chooses - be receptive,
be frosty, whatever she wants. Just as I value my own freedom, I
recognize and respect hers.

Because I'm not fixated on the outcome, I don't feel bad if the
approach doesn't work.

I went out with a wing on Sunday night (unusually quiet in Sydney),
and got blown off a few times, and it didn't faze me at all. Whereas
even a few weeks ago, that would've been my cue to feel bad about
myself for getting rejected.

So, for me, not to feel bad about getting rejected is a
mind-blowing breakthrough. It wasn't due to the presence of a
wing. I've been feeling and doing this during the past week.

Because I wasn't trying to control the chick and my interaction
with her, because I was prepared to just roll with it and accept
whatever happened, it didn't feel like a failure.

And because I didn't feel like I "failed", I didn't have any reason
to either beat myself up or to blame the chick for acting "bitchy".

I did what I wanted by approaching her and opening. She did what
she wanted by rejecting me. We both did what we wanted. Now, there
are lessons in her reaction that I'm absorbing, but I treat it as
pure feedback.

The world is telling me what works for me and what doesn't. That's
great. That's what I want to find out.

And, she's letting me know that the two of us aren't right for
each other in that instant. Whatever I'm offering, in that instant,
it's not what she wants or is ready to accept. That's fine by me.
That's her choice. Just as it's my choice to approach her.

And it's my choice not to spend time with a chick who doesn't want
to spend time with me.

If you approach a chick with a mindset of demanding that the chick
gives you what you want, and you don't get it, then how do you
feel?

You either feel (a) "rejected" and bad about yourself, and start
calling yourself a "failure".

Or (b) you blame her for depriving you and you feel bad towards
her.

Not only that, but in both (a) and (b) you relive similar feelings
from past situations. Even more rejection "oh no, not again". Even
more blame and resentment "those bitches, they're all the same".

My recent insight is: you set yourself up for feeling bad, (a) or
(b), by demanding rather than offering. If you let go, and simply
offer, then there is no "failure". There is only feedback.

Mystery has made this point - there is only feedback - a number of
times. It's only now that I understand what he was getting at.
Because now I can feel the distinction between demanding and
offering.

Yes, you didn't get everything you wanted in that moment. No, you
don't have to feel bad about that. The world - and this chick - is
telling you what works and what doesn't work for you, right now.
That's it.

Here's another upgrade in my thinking: when you repeatedly feel
bad in a sarging situation - angry, depressed, fearful - your
emotional/unconscious mind is giving you a message. It's telling
you that whatever you are doing isn't working for you.

The question is then: how much pain do you want to undergo before
you change direction? Before you change your beliefs, attitudes,
behaviour? How much inertia do you have? How much pain will it take
before you are ready to let go and embrace change?

Some people don't want to let go, because they get a payoff from
(a) or (b). The misery they feel is familiar, and, in a strange
way, comforting. At least they know what to expect. So one payoff
is a feeling of security - a sense of control.

Because with personal change, anything could happen. You might make
mistakes and suffer embarrassment. You might learn you have a lot of
work to do on yourself. You might learn that you have had the
freedom to choose differently all along, and now you have to accept
the fact that you've wasted years of your life making the same poor
choices over and over.

Confronting stuff.

Chicks have problems. So do guys. That's part of being human.
That's partly why we enter relationships (I'll leave that topic for
another time). Few of us have the maturity of the Dalai Lama.

Does blaming chicks for not giving you what you want, help you to
get what you want? No? Then why do it? Where's the payoff?

Does feeling bad about yourself when you get rejected, help you to
get what you want? No? Then why do it? Where's the payoff?

Because, make no mistake, when you repeatedly do something that
makes you feel bad, you are getting a payoff somehow. If there
wasn't a payoff, you would choose differently. You would make
different choices.

You are in control of everything you do. You choose the girl. You
choose what to wear, what to say, how to behave, where to go. You
choose what to think, what to believe, what attitude to convey.

You choose all this, moment to moment. It may not feel like it.
It may feel that you are pushed around, helpless, reacting, acting
and thinking out of habit.

Yet at any time, you are free to stop, think, change direction, ask
for help. You are free to choose. And you are free to act helpless
and act out of habit, if you so choose.

Resentment comes from blame. Blame comes from demanding, when the
world says no. Blame is choice (b). Feeling bad about yourself is
choice (a). These are the two choices you have if you demand
rather than simply offer.

But if you simply offer, and let her choose, you find you have
other choices, where you don't have to feel bad about yourself, or
her either. You can simply accept whatever happens.

And if you don't get what you want, in that moment, you have even
more choices. You can move on to the next chick. You can stay with
this one, but try a different tack (change your offer). You can
repeat your offer, and see if she accepts it this time. Whatever
you want. Freedom.

This is the point I've been trying to get to for some time. Not to
fight against myself, but simply to step around myself.

To accept rejection, not block it out with an ego defense ("bitch,
she doesn't know what she's passing up") , and yet not feel bad
about myself ("fuck, not again, I'm hopeless").

To stay aware. To be free of fear. To feel free to do what I want.
A middle way, between blaming her and blaming me.

I'm not quite there yet. I backslide from time to time. But I'm
close.

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Greg D:
>MindAuger:
>So "We need the other paddle" would become something like "It
>would become quite apparent that at this juncture, we have a need for
the
>additional flattened piece of wood whose function is to propel our
water
>vessel across the shimmering lake we traversed earlier in the day."
Yeah
>no kidding!
>
>My Comment: My intuition is that we are on to something here with
>complicated, flowery words which have little or no meaning -- it
appears
>women are excited by men who seem to be a little beyond their reach
>intellectually.  We need to explore this further.

This last description of MA's stirred up some old memories and I may
be able to add something here.
Ex: "scintillate, scintillate, styroid manific."  That sounds much more
romantic than just "twinkle, twinkle, little star" doesn't it?
I'll have to look and see if I still have a hardcopy of the sheet of
~25 of these such sayings, but I believe it is gone and I know that my
electronic copy got zeroed when my hard drive crashed two years ago.
>Assman:
>My opener is shocking, and that gets their attention.  If they go into
>alpha state of consciousness, then they are disarmed.  All I must do
then is
>deliver deepening patterns and suggestions.  This of course does not
always
>work, and then I either run away, or revert to more conventional
tactics.

This sounds like a ballsy/cocky approach to Ross' humor approach
with the twist of physical comedy.  Not like Stooges, but more like
Python or some of the "Candid Camera" skits.  Going the wrong way on the
escalator to happen to talk to an HB.  "Acadamy of Funny Walks" sort of
things.  The new 7-Up ad campaigns use a little of this.  The taste test
vs. dish soap.  Obvious ambiguity "Make 7, Up yours."  Things that are
so ridiculous that they're funny.  "I Love Lucy" is this to many people,
I personally prefer George Carlin's style.
Another suggestive humor approach (Back to MindAuger's "lifeboat") is
the Airplane! silly routines.  "Shirley you're kidding me", "No I'm not,
and stop calling me Shirley."

Hope this helps on the redirect for a few brothers...

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Halbster:
(Commenting on: > Mystery comments on Assman)
>  >I disagree.  If you can't FIND them, get their
>  >attention (the OPENER),disarm their obstacles,provide
>  >social proof and THEN get them to join you in a 1:1
>  >set at the couches, then you cannot begin SS.
>  > Remember that SS is designed for the LA cafe scene -
>  >for 1:1 sets - a single target with no group around
>  >her.  Most cities in the US and Canada do not have
>  >similar scenes.  In Toronto a cafe is literally a
>  >donut shop - with the old bag lady in the corner.
>  >What about when a hottie is with her parents?
>  >Then what?  All the stuff leading TO the SS is called
>  >FLUFF talk.  That severely minimizes the importance
>  >of what must happen in that FLUFF TALK.
>  >Opening, raising interest, removing obstacles or
>  >people, noise and time constraints, getting them to
>  >trust you enough to sit with you. THEN you can do
>  >SS.
>  >And then after that you still have to >close
>  ...preferably kiss close.
>  >There is alot to the game and SS is only a part of
>  the
>  >LIFECYCLE of a PU.

I think you need to learn more about SS before you can make that comment.
SS has many MAJOR influences outside of the LA cafe seen.  Major Mark lives
in a suburb in the midwest.  The SS list has people from all around the
world.  SS can work just as well with groups of women or women in places
outside of the cafe.  It works because it is designed to work with the way
people's (including HB's) minds are structured.  SS deals with "Opening,
raising interest, removing obstacles or people, noise and time constraints,
getting them to trust you enough to sit with you."  And, you don't wait to
do SS.  You start SS in the beginning.
> Try it sometime, sneak behind a women, touch her before you say a word to
>  her, then speak to her with authority in your voice, maybe even present
>  yourself as an authority, it need not make sense, or seem believable.
Bark
>  questions at her, "I'm the monitor here, what are you doing?  where are
you
>  going?  We have been watching you, you may be in violation, I'm afraid
>  you're in trouble.  You must present me with some I.D."  Watch her eyes
and
>  body language», confuse her with conflicting statements, keep your hands
on
>  her to
>  show control, be overbearing, and even sinister.  Do these experiments
and
>  see just how timid  people really are, and take advantage of the sheep
who
>  cower before you.

I think this method is a form of desperation and being a bully.  I'd also
say that you got what you deserve if some women gets you arrested or some
guy (or woman) beats the daylights out of you.  Plus, you're missing out on
the much of the fun of the seduction process.  There are much better ways to
get an adrenalin rush than by victimizing another person.  Although I
haven't seduced every woman that I've ever approached I've never had to
runaway or hide in fear.

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Ron:
Just wanted to comment on the tendency of some guys to harp on about their
anger towards women and the negative themes that might result on your list
as you had requested comments on this.

First of all, I don't think ANY of us is unique in the sense that at one
time we've all had our bad experiences with women.  God knows I've had 'em.
However, to the guys who sit at home and brood about it (like I used to do)
I say - simply - grow up.  Get some perspective!  If things aren't going
well for you women wise, take a look a long hard look in the mirror and
figure out what YOU have done to contribute to your resentment.  From my own
experience you've had a bigger role than you think.  And if you're really
down about it, really angry, really pissed off, maybe even dangerous then
get some friggin' psychological help or see your doctor about some
medication for crying out loud.

I myself spent over a year studying SS and BARELY field testing anything
before I finally made some significant inroads in my own progress.  I also
discovered late last year I had a health problem which wasn't helping me.
That is now resolved.

My real progress in SS began after spending New Years (2001) with a lady
who I had established excellent rapport with but who I just could not seem
to bring myself to be "The Man" and sarge consistently.  I AFC'd it all the
way, like an idiot.  Nothing happened.  I was frustrated and depressed about
it.  And for a short time I was resentful towards her.  But, fortunately, I
DID take a look in the mirror and the next morning I decided, enough was
enough, I would not attach excess meaning to the situation or any situation
I might experience like it with other women.  The truth is I was the weak
part of the equation in that I had done next to nothing to position myself
as an interesting tasty opportunity for her.  I had also come from the
perspective of being needful of the sex.  Fuck.  Talk about asking for
frustration.

Recently, I posted my first and most recent success on the SS list. It was
with the woman I mentioned above.  And boys, I'm here to tell you that
despite my AFC behaviour of the past, I was able to Sarge this gal and turn
it into a No BS relationship.  She is totally enthralled with me - so much
so, I have a hard time believing it myself sometimes.  But her and I have a
great time, the sex is great and we have tasty conversations and I'm just
having fun being the man.

Had I continued to be pissed off at her (when I should really been pissed of
at myself) this experience would not have happened the way it did.  It was
like lightning came out of the frickin' sky when it all happened.

My overall point is, give women a break, guys.  Take a long hard look in the
mirror.  This is not a war.  If you go into it like it's a war, my belief is
you'll just get "war time" results and aftermath.  Christ.  Who wants that?
I don't.  Everyday I think about what Ross Jeffries and SS and Cliff and
Tristan and all the other guys who I've not even met yet but only studied
from have given me and I am extremely grateful for it.  I HAVE grown up a
lot and realize that women, like us, are not perfect and that the whole
thing does not have to be a struggle.

By the way Cliff, I have NEVER gotten the impression that your list was
negative towards women.  Sure the odd guy vents maybe but sometimes that's
necessary to get it off their chest.  Women are NO different.

And for those people who are offended by any of the material on the list I
have one suggestion - go read a couple back issues of Cosmopolitan Magazine
for some female perspective.  Some of the stuff there could be considered
equally offensive (maybe even more so) than ANYTHING I've read here.
 Cliff - don't let the inmates run the asylum and DON'T CHANGE A THING!!!!

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TGB:
I have the details on pheromones. Used them for years and knew it would work
some day... I came to the conclusion you become the spotlit person and have
to prospect your PUA-personality. Great work-out as someone wrote on ASF.
But painful though.

What I learnt from using androstenone and -ol containing products rendered
me speechless for some time. I felt that every single person in a given
space noticed me but I couldn't re-act to what I was experiencing because I
felt I ha(ve)d abandoned my mind. Did you ever feel like being on Big
Brother? Await your compensation for that. If you are like me (average Joe)
and your self-image isn't made of steel bricks that can make your conception
of self and reality tremble wildly. Rambo possibly used a spray of
pheromones before freaking out. I am not the kind of person that would run
amok when confronting a town full of enemies. That way my body survived. Any
questions?
You cannot live like there's no tomorrow when you are being watched. That
has some good as well as bad news for you. Someone else said on ASF wearing
that pheromones is like working out. It is - mentally. Hard to beat on that.
I am currently writing a book on that matter. Maybe there is someone who
wants to translate it from German.

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PF:
> My Comment: My intuition is that we are on to something here with
> complicated, flowery words which have little or no meaning -- it
> appears women are excited by men who seem to be a little beyond
> their reach intellectually.  We need to explore this further.

This probably holds true more online, where your words are the main
component of the image she's forming in her mind. In person, I've
used confusion as part of an induction, but I don't think that's the
mechanism at work here. I wonder if women who use online services
are smarter (or consider themselves smarter?) and so tend to go for
guys who are/appear intelligent. I've had women comment favorably
on my vocabulary, but I tend to go for geek chicks...so who knows?

Just don't go so far that you start sounding like Al Sharpton! :)

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Mystery:
MYSTERY in Defense of NEG THEORY
--------------------------------
>>Halbster:  Sometimes neghits are necessary to get the female's attention.
>>Jeez, this chick is 31 years old, and she takes what one guy says so
>>seriously? She needs to grow up. Think about all the verbal abuse us men
>>have taken in our PU attempts. You have to just dismiss it and move on.
>>Are women that much different than men? If she is so messed up in her head
>>that she can't dismiss that insult for what it was, then she deserves all
>>the pain that she gets. It may seem cruel, but that's the way things are.

Wow.  NEGS (not NEGHITS) are NOT blatant insults. And the reasoning to WHY
it was ok to insult her is mind numbing.  A NEG is only useful on 9's and
10's.  Never on lower rated girls.  With a 10, you may perform one before
she has given you a reason to because it is quite likely she will NEG you
very soon.  Why?  Because this is their brush off mechanism - my sister once
picked her nose to get rid of a guy.  I used the "Are you gonna watch?" as I
was ready to blow my nose.  These are NEG's too and are NOT insults.  A NEG
is something you do to convey to them that you aren't interested.  Not by
SAYING, "You stink" but by telling her something you would not normally tell
someone you liked like, "*whispering* you should clean your ears."
>Dude, you are totally missing it.  First, neghits are not necessary.
>Second, thinking that they are is a form of desperation that undermines you
>in several ways, including:
>1) it really puts the power in the other person

How so?  The power is not conveying your interest in her.  You convey all
the characteristics of an alphamale so that SHE will like you.  And since
you hadn't shown interest, the ball is in your court and you may now play
hard to get.  While your presence says, "I'm interested", your NEGS say,
"I'm
not".  This triggers a challenge.  THAT is POWER.
>2) undermines confidence/google

How so?  I understand that INSULTING someone simply makes you look like a
goof but ... a NEG is a great way to lower a 10's self esteem.  NEG THEORY
is for PRO PUA's.  If you are using NEGS on 6's and 7's, you are fucking up.
>3) neghits aren't the best for rapport

You will rarely HAVE rapport with a 10 you just met.  In order to BUILD
rapport you must first capture her RESPECT.  NEGS aid you in doing this.
>4) they make you a bully

Aaaaaaa ... no.  They don't.  They show you aren't phased by their looks.
That's it.
>5) they are a form of supplication

Aaaaaaa ... no.  They show that you must not have a sexual interest in them.
This way you slide under their radar.
>6) they decrease your flexibility and learning because you missout on
better methods.

Totally disagree.
>7) Often people doing neghits appear incongruent when they do it

Huh?  Look, I didn't invent NEG THEORY out of some fantasized ideal.  I
DISCOVERED I got BETTER results by using them on 9's and 10's.  AND ... I
STILL DO.  So ... let's say I approach a 5 set (3 girls, 2 guys) and I want
to fuck the target who is a 10.  This is how to go about it.  Enter and OPEN
to the whole group.  Ignore the target for now.  Start disarming the
obstacles beginning with the men and then working across.  MEANWHILE, the
target will STILL witness your conveying of personality.  So you tell your
stories or routines (not patterns as patterns are for 1:1) to the whole
group but aim them at the guys 'til the guys think you are cool.  You then
perform a NEG to the target (BTW: don't bother performing a NEG to a target
in a 1:1) like the 'Pull My Finger' NEG and continue talking with the others
while ignoring her.  You may even alienate her by turning your back to her a
bit thereby nudging her right out of her own group of friends.  You may (if
you perform the photo routine) deny her of seeing the photos you are showing
her friends because she is being to 'nosy'.  That is another NEG ... "Is she
always this nosy?"  Finally, after asking, "So how does everyone know
each other?" and discovering that the men are NOT BF's or brothers, THEN you
may speak directly to the target.
>If you're going to use methods of influence then you need to be responsible
>for your communication.  At many (perhaps all) of RJ's seminars he tells
>people that if someone is under your influence then they should also be
>under your protection.  Neghits just make you an insecure bully.

I agree with Ross' comment.  However, a NEG is something you do to LOWER her
protection shield and SEEK yours.  You pick on her (either playfully or
subtlety), this makes her insecure and no longer feeling empowered by her
beauty, she then seeks your approval.  On a 10 you may perform a NEG before
she gives you a reason.  If she gives you a reason (this is called TESTING)
... if she TESTS you, don't jump through her HOOP (HOOP THEORY).  Simply
call her on it and/or construct your own HOOP.
>BEING THE MAN means taking responsibility for your communication.  This
creates a congruency, sense of confidence, and aura of personal power that
draws woman like a magnet.  As for this woman, I think most woman who
receive a comment like that would probably be self-conscious to some extent,
and it would affect them for a long time.

Was she a 10?  If she was a 6 or 7, don't use NEGS!  And, yes, a NEG is
supposed to undermine their self-confidence.  The only times you would ever
have to do such a thing though is if the woman IS a 9 or 10 though.  NEVER
anatomically compliment a 9 or 10.  BUT ... a 6?  Hell, tell her you think
she is a hottie if you want.  The point is to "Treat a 10 like a 6 and a 6
like a 10."
>I think the only question is how much it affects them.  This woman is a
>very bright well-adjusted woman who has dealt very well with a horrible
>handicap.  Unfortunately, because of her tragic past his comment was
>probably especially hurtful to her. However, when people first meet you
>don't always know if you're dealing with the fragile eggshell.  I urge and
>implore you to reconsider your use of neghits, especially if they haven't
>yet gotten you what you are seeking, but even if you thought neghits could
>get you what you want you can find better ways.

I agree with this.  If a woman is missing fucking BODY PARTS, don't NEG her
about it!  She is NOT A 10 if she is missing BODY PARTS.  NEGS are for 10's!
Crippled chicks don't get NEGGED!  I can't believe I put out a great theory
and then people take it and use it on one eyed wretches.  This is fucked up.
Haaa.
>Just because I can physically force a woman to have sex with me doesn't
>mean that it is an acceptable approach, or that my self-esteem will be
>enhanced by raping someone.  Sometimes psychological abuse is worse.

NEG's are meant to lower self esteem on someone who believes she is above
you.  That's it.  Don't knock her knee caps off.  It's a NEG, not an INSULT.
And especially not PHYSICAL ABUSE.  You guys boggle haaa.  AND, NEGGING
should only occur in front of OTHERS to make her feel selfconscious.  You
don't have to address the entire group but make her feel shy around her
friends for a while (like when you tell her that her nose wiggles when she
talks, you do that so the whole group hears but the 'you got something on
your nose' is whispered to her.)

Here's another: "you should use cream on your elbows - they're like KFC"

That is a NEG ... not a blatant insult.  It's light hearted and you aren't
saying it to her to hurt her feelings but to 'help'.  Or saying you love
girls with blue eyes if she has brown eyes.  It's not an insult ... just a
NEG.
>Halbster: I partially agree with you, but the problem with your approach is
>that it doesn't work with super HB's or extremely confident women.

Agreed.  That is why NEG THEORY was invented.  Some girls need to be lowered
a notch or three.
>The reason is that they already have all the power, because they are used
>to it. The other men always give them this power. You can't empower them
>because in their mind, they have more power than you. The neg is useful
>incases like that.

Precisely!
>With a neg, you get her to fall down from her pedestal and realize that you
>are different and have more power than other men and her.

Another Precisely!  Now we are GETTING IT  : D
>First, I only go for super HB's who are extremely confident women.

Have you seen pix of my chicks in my lounge?  Are we on the same playing
field?
>Nobody has anymore power over you than the power that you give them. It is
>all in your mind.  The way to convey more power and show that you're
>different from other men is to act with more power.

What is happening here is a misunderstanding of the word POWER.  I would
prefer not even to USE IT.  See, when a woman of quality (a 10) discovers
the you want her, she has already won.  By the fact that you LIKE her, she
has already disqualified you because you are like all the rest.  So we say
WE have the power when they don't know we like them.  So we keep it HIDDEN
and convey our personality until we see indicators of interest.  We don't
give many IOI's to HER, but look for IOI's FROM HER!  AND ... once we have
enough IOI's, we go for the close and make it hard for her, thereby adding
value.  The challenge is there all the way to the # close or kiss close.
>Also, most of the time you don't have to show that you have more power than
>either her or other men.

You are now talking about a different POWER.  We were first talking about
the power gained through KNOWING SOMETHING (the fact that one WANTS the
other) and you have warped that into ALPHAMALE POWER.  These debates have
broken down due ot miscommunication.  I blame the English language
personally.
>You merely have to gain her respect.  Remember this isn't about a power
>contest, this is about seduction.  However, holding power is useful.  Henry
>Kissinger said "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac."

Wants ta know MY THOUGHTS ON DIS?  OK, I'll tells ya.  I don't believe it.
Henry Kissinger did NOT get laid more than me.  So ... WHO ya gonna believe?
You know what IS the ultimate aphrodisiac?  Listen closely ... a sense of
MYSTERY.

Mystery said, "Mystery is the ultimate aphrodisiac."
>However, I don't think it got him laid a whole lot, but it probably helped.
>Some people are so focused on neghitting that they are forgetting about
>much more important concepts.  Most importantly, I think seduction is about
>leading yourself and woman to wonderful, blissful, ecstatic states.

Yeah, I think often I'm throwing pearls before swine.  My material and
theories are PRO-RATED and some royal AFC's try and use it with crash and
burn results.  Anyone wishing to SEE it in action, let's hook up.  I don't
even THINK about it anymore ... it's completely internalized into my game
now.
>When you become the link to her pleasure she will gladly spread her legs
>for you.

The USE of NEG's is to get her to RESPECT you so you may continue talking
and conveying words that will make her FEEL GOOD.  I'd LOVE to go straight
up to a 10 and talk all seductive but then, many of the AFC's who approach
her try that with crash and burn results.  I'm up for any challenge people
set forth - not for money just personal pride.  I'd like to know once and
for all ... who IS the best PUA?  The way I figure it, if I win I get
bragging rights. If I lose, well then hell, I just met someone better than
me and can learn
something USEFUL finally!
>Those of you who read Bishop's seductions will notice that this is one of
>the core elements of almost all of his masterful seductions.  This is a
>primary function of his "Warmth Builder" and many of his other patterns.

Patterns are for 1:1.  Once you have your 10 in a 1:1 situation (like
sitting on the couch in the dark corner of a club) you don't NEED NEGS
anymore!
>Another very important factor in seductions is being able to structure
>challenges and offer inviting opportunities.  Structuring challenges will
>often do many of the things you guys are trying to do with the neghits, and
>accomplish those purposes in a much more elegant and effective manner.
>Challenges can be an effective tool for shifting the balance of power.

Structure challenges?  Yes ... a NEG WILL do that.  She will feel that you
don't like her as much as all the other guys so will try harder to make you

behave the SAME before she throws you back into the water.  That is why more
than one NEG is useful on a single girl.  And, yes, of COURSE you can go
overboard with them.  Never do more than 3 on a chick you just met.  There
are also two meanings to 'structuring opportunities'.  This usually refers
to offering an opportunity to CLOSE.  The other is to open yourself up to
wisecracks from her.  She may take it or pass.
>Negging any part of someone's physique is BAD and WRONG, it may cause long
>term damage.

I don't agree.  Pointing out to a girl that her spindly fingers remind you
of
ET is great!  Just don't pick on breast size, ass, legs ... NECK is ok too.
Another ET crack!  Truth is, if you CAN pick on a girl's breasts or ass, she
ain't a 10 and you shouldn't be NEGGING anyhow.
>I won't also neg on something expensive that a woman might have (i.e. Car,
>Furniture, ....)

Hmm, I don't have any NEGS that FIT THIS.  I mean, I don't make up NEGS on
the fly.  That's just lameass.  I know my NEGS and use them when
appropriate.  The only one fitting of a clothing thing is, "I like your
dress. I saw you in it the last time I was at this club.  You must really
like it, too" or
"You know there is another girl with this exact same dress on in here."
That's about it but hell, who cares how MUCH the dress costs.  You guys sure
think in a strange way haaa.
>I have no second opinion about that issue.  What I do usually is negging on
>little items, like an ear ring, color of pants, color of manicure.....
>something that can be changed with no or minimal cost.

This makes no sense ... what are the NEGS you use?  Say, for an earring?
You just make something up on the spot?  What and PICK ON IT?  I'm confused
here.
>I do have a good respect for your opinion and thoughts.  If you're going to
>neghit (which I don't recommend) I think these are great rules to follow.

Same here.  When I say something is lameass, I say it in a tone like when I
talk with a good buddy.  Fair?  Fair.
>Assman >>>
>I don't need to provide social proof and disarm them with brilliant chit
>chat. My opener is shocking, and that gets their attention.  If they go
into
>alpha state of consciousness, then they are disarmed.  All I must do then
is
>deliver deepening patterns and suggestions.  This of course does not always
>work, and then I either run away, or revert to more conventional tactics.

Mystery: I would like to set forth a challenge to you.  Let's see whose
system gets more efficient results.  (Just a playful challenge of course -
we could
sarge together sometime - for fun.)
>Assman
>For the average PUA your approach is superior, and even for me, I often
>get better results with it, but I am a man, and sometimes I want to
forcefully
>dominate a women right from the get go.  Sweet talking women,and using
>gimmicks and wingmen work, but the rush you get from a PATERNAL
>INDUCTION - (masculine, shock type) is unmatched by the MATERNAL
>INDUCTION/SEDUCTION, where you sort of lull them to sleep.

Mystery: Aaah I SEE!  Cool!  That's a very good way to see it.  I'm more
MATERNAL than PATERNAL but use the "DADDY SCOLDING BABY" act on special
occasions.  Usually it's for RELATIONSHIP issues and not the actual PU
though.  Do you have any examples?
>Assman
>Try it sometime, sneak behind a women, touch her before you say a word to
>her, then speak to her with authority in your voice, maybe even present
>yourself as an authority, it need not make sense, or seem believable.  Bark
>questions at her, "I'm the monitor here, what are you doing? where are you
>going?  We have been watching you, you may be in violation, I'm afraid
>you're in trouble.  You must present me with some I.D."  Watch her eyes
>and body language», confuse her with conflicting statements, keep your hands
>on her to show control, be overbearing, and even sinister.  Do these
>experiments and see just how timid people really are, and take advantage of
>the sheep who cower before you.

Mystery: Very interesting OPENER concept.  I'm curious as to the various
reactions you've gotten in the field.  Can you give some scenarios (and not
just the good ones but the bad ones too).

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TGB297:
> it seems that
> most of the time when some guy gets very successful with women it was
> spurred on by a degree of rage from some deeply hurtful experience.  I
think
> that to pretend that these feelings aren't there is misleading, but it is
> more important and productive to get past that and change unhealthy
> attitudes to more positive ones.  Comments?

An invitation, thanx. I do not fully agree with that. I think being
successful means having success. It is not about sex alone. My concern with
women whom I have never been very successful with is to combine sexual
success with emotional bliss. This is impossible for me at that time and
hurts me bad. Being hurt doesn't make me hurt people all the way back but I
try to rethink my approach every time I miss my goal only slightly (hasn't
happened, the slightly thing). I rethink myself, undo and redo but don't
forget myself. Try that. Hey bros, what about being successful by fate,
luck, proper attitude...? You don't have to convert that into anger or
should you? I want to know: what nice guy did get laid? And I don't mean
with the strippers. Can Mr. Nice enter the body of neighbor's little girl?

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