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Conveying Higher Value is NOT Seduction

mASF post by Dr. Smooth

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Conveying Higher Value is NOT Seduction
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mASF post by "Dr. Smooth"
posted on: mASF forum: Advanced Discussion, August 8, 2003

Hey all . . .

I've been following some of the debates that have flared up over different
methods, and I wanted to chime in.

First of all, I have a ton of respect for anyone who takes time to share his
detailed, field tested insight into the game. I've learned a ton from reading
guys like TD Gunwitch, and Formhandle. My comments are made based upon my
personal experiences in the field.

I think that the current TD/Mystery method» model that a lot of guys follow on
the board is solid. TD has some incredible observations on the mindset of the
SHB. I personally get more out of his general philosophies rather than his
specific methods. Although I've never met TD, I gather that his methods are
specifically tailored to HIS personality, which I think that most people don't

The best part of this method is that it is GREAT at conveying HIGHER VALUE.

Most of the methods, theories ,and tactics on this board are geared towards
higher value. As we all know, higher value is an essential part of PU. For
the SHB, you will NOT get a CHANCE to seduce her until higher value is

Seduction, i.e. the specific creation of SEXUAL ATTRACTION is the other half
that I think that people tend to gloss over and take for GRANTED.

I came to this conclusion when thinking back to my college days. There was a
guy that we used to call the "set up man." He knew ALL of the HB's. All of the
HB's LOVED this guy. He had this real adrogenous/homosexual/party vibe that the
girls felt comfortable with. But this guy wasn't getting LAID. He wasn't a
CLOSER. You would think that he was getting sex but he wasn't. (most of the

When you convey HIGHER VALUE, you are conveying the image that you are one of
the cool guys to hang out with. It allows you to get into her CIRCLE (or,
brings her in yours.) But it doesn't necessarily mean that she is going to
FUCK you.

Think about the social circle that the HB's hang out in. They always have a
bunch of Alpha's in their circle, who , ostensibly have higher value. I've
seen it a lot in the club scene where, guys know ALL of the HB's (usually
promoters), but they aren't CLOSING. Just because your "cool" enough to hang
out with her doesn't guarantee a lay.

Conveying higher value may get you the lay through PROXIMITY and ACCESS to more
HB's. But without seduction, it really, IMO is Fool's Mate. Its a form of the
numbers game. Higher Value allows the HB to get to know you without putting up
a bitch shields. As such, SHE may SELECT YOU. For some guys, this may be
o.k. (In fact, I think Mystery said a SHB SELECTS YOU).

But, I think that one point that is overlooked on this board is that different
guys are in the game for different reasons. When I was younger (college), I
might have been cool with hanging out with the hottest girls and getting an
occasional lay. (In fact, that was my game). But now that I'm 27, I don't have
the time or the patience. I place I higher value on ACTUAL LAYS, and the
novelty of the "HB" has worn out on me. (I see this as a STICKING POINT, BTW,
and I'm trying to correct it.)

The seduction is what I think is the essence of game. It's what separates the
men from the boys. I feel that, as of late, its been taken for granted. RJ
and SS dealt with the topic, and GWM addresses it to a large degree. But I
think that sometimes we get so caught up in higher value that seduction is

I think that the actual seduction is ignored because its THE HARDEST PART, IMO.
One of my favorite things said by TD is that what we are doing here on ASF is
ADVANCED SHIT. Most guys couldn't pick up a SHB who is a stranger if their
life depended on it. If you ask most SHB's they will BRAG to you about how
they've never been "picked up" by someone they don't know. THEY usually do
the selecting.

Someone called it the "PU Paradox"; how do you maintain the higher value
necessary to pick up the SHB (usually conveyed by concealing your desire) and
thereafter maintain the higher value through seduction. THIS is the real
challenge of PU, IMO, and the true mark of a mPUA. I don't have the answer, and
I think that we as a community should more time and focus into phase shifting
and actual seduction.

The only answer that I have to the "paradox" is an observation that I made
about rock stars. I'll call it "rock star" theory

Rock stars may be a rare example of people who get laid SOLELY off of higher
value. However, its not that simple. Groupies lay rock stars because THEY
HAVE TO in order to hang out with them. In order to get back stage and hang
out with the band, they are sucking someone's dick. Its just that simple. The
sex is a mechanism in order to get access.

A lot of guys who are successful in conveying higher value have difficulty
establishing a similar frame. If the HB gets all of the benefits of your
higher value, (ie, she's already invited to your "party"), then she had little
incentive to give up the lay. I think that you need to employ a push-pull type
of technique that convey's the message . . . "If you want to be part of my
circle, you are going to have to give up the pussy." TD and others use this
frame successfully in a NON-sexual context. But the sex expectations must be
established. I'm still working on how to do this while still conveying higher

It's like the old saying "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free"
turned on its head. These younger HB's tend to crave the ATTENTION and
EXCITEMENT more than the SEX. (unless they are HD) When a woman gets a little
older, and has more orgasms under her belt, she tends to place a higher value
on sex in and of itself. But these younger girls (under say 24), take the
"Britney Spears" approach to sex: sex is a commodity to get what you want and
control guys. If she is allowed the benefit of your higher value without
giving up the pussy, chances are more likely that she won't.

One last thing; I'm not going to be one of those guys that says TD does not
get laid. I don't know the guy, and if he says he does, I'll believe him. I
just think that he takes for granted the "seduction" part of his game, and I
would love to see him discuss it in more detail.

My only commentary

Unless otherwise noted, this article is Copyright©2003 by "Dr. Smooth" with implicit permission provided to for reproduction. Any other use is prohibited without the explicit permission of the original author.


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