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Conveying Higher Value is NOT Seduction

mASF post by zarathustra_fi

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Conveying Higher Value is NOT Seduction
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mASF post by "zarathustra_fi"
posted on: mASF forum: Advanced Discussion, August 8, 2003

On 8/16/03 12:08:00 AM, Dr. Smooth wrote:
Dr. Smooth,
this is a great post.

You approach practically the same I was approaching with my post "Hiding the
agenda & repetitive behaviors".

In my PUA life I have been generally concentrating on the seduction part and
also conveying value but my FOCUS has been on the seduction part.

My proudness keeps me from feeling myself comfortable with the idea that a SHB
would choose me. I prefer to be the one to choose.

I agree with what you say that SHBs generally are hard do pick up. MM trough
social proof and hiding the agenda is a way to overcome this. A very effective
one. But STILL there must be the seduction part.

Anyway MM method confronts itself in a very effective way with the issue HOW TO
REACH THE SHB and now Franco is looking for ways TO SELECT the SHB. I donĀ“t
like at all the idea of someone selecting me.

I gave up all my swinger activities, nexted part of my secondaries and freed
time for this. I want to concentrate on the challenge: "I select the SHBs" and
not vice versa.

Studies go on..and generally I quit only when I get what I want.

"Even the most courageous among us only rarely has the courage for that which
he really knows" Friedrich Nietzsche - The Twilight of The Idols

>Hey all . . .
>I've been following some of
>the debates that have flared
>up over different methods, and
>I wanted to chime in.
>First of all, I have a ton of
>respect for anyone who takes
>time to share his detailed,
>field tested insight into the
>game. I've learned a ton from
>reading guys like TD Gunwitch,
>and Formhandle. My comments
>are made based upon my
>personal experiences in the
>I think that the current
>TD/Mystery method» model that a
>lot of guys follow on the
>board is solid. TD has some
>incredible observations on the
>mindset of the SHB. I
>personally get more out of his
>general philosophies rather
>than his specific methods.
>Although I've never met TD, I
>gather that his methods are
>specifically tailored to HIS
>personality, which I think
>that most people don't get.
>The best part of this method
>is that it is GREAT at
>conveying HIGHER VALUE.
>Most of the methods, theories
>,and tactics on this board are
>geared towards higher value.
>As we all know, higher value
>is an essential part of PU.
>For the SHB, you will NOT get
>a CHANCE to seduce her until
>higher value is established.
>Seduction, i.e. the specific
>is the other half that I think
>that people tend to gloss over
>and take for GRANTED.
>I came to this conclusion when
>thinking back to my college
>days. There was a guy that we
>used to call the "set up man."
>He knew ALL of the HB's. All
>of the HB's LOVED this guy. He
>had this real
>vibe that the girls felt
>comfortable with. But this
>guy wasn't getting LAID. He
>wasn't a CLOSER. You would
>think that he was getting sex
>but he wasn't. (most of the
>When you convey HIGHER VALUE,
>you are conveying the image
>that you are one of the cool
>guys to hang out with. It
>allows you to get into her
>CIRCLE (or, brings her in
>yours.) But it doesn't
>necessarily mean that she is
>going to FUCK you.
>Think about the social circle
>that the HB's hang out in.
>They always have a bunch of
>Alpha's in their circle, who ,
>ostensibly have higher value.
>I've seen it a lot in the club
>scene where, guys know ALL of
>the HB's (usually promoters),
>but they aren't CLOSING. Just
>because your "cool" enough to
>hang out with her doesn't
>guarantee a lay.
>Conveying higher value may get
>you the lay through PROXIMITY
>and ACCESS to more HB's. But
>without seduction, it really,
>IMO is Fool's Mate. Its a
>form of the numbers game.
>Higher Value allows the HB to
>get to know you without
>putting up a bitch shields.
>As such, SHE may SELECT YOU.
>For some guys, this may be
>o.k. (In fact, I think
>Mystery said a SHB SELECTS
>But, I think that one point
>that is overlooked on this
>board is that different guys
>are in the game for different
>reasons. When I was younger
>(college), I might have been
>cool with hanging out with the
>hottest girls and getting an
>occasional lay. (In fact, that
>was my game). But now that I'm
>27, I don't have the time or
>the patience. I place I
>higher value on ACTUAL LAYS,
>and the novelty of the "HB"
>has worn out on me. (I see
>and I'm trying to correct it.)
>The seduction is what I think
>is the essence of game. It's
>what separates the men from
>the boys. I feel that, as of
>late, its been taken for
>granted. RJ and SS dealt with
>the topic, and GWM addresses
>it to a large degree. But I
>think that sometimes we get so
>caught up in higher value that
>seduction is ignored.
>I think that the actual
>seduction is ignored because
>One of my favorite things said
>by TD is that what we are
>doing here on ASF is ADVANCED
>SHIT. Most guys couldn't pick
>up a SHB who is a stranger if
>their life depended on it.
>If you ask most SHB's they
>will BRAG to you about how
>they've never been "picked up"
>by someone they don't know.
>THEY usually do the
>Someone called it the "PU
>Paradox"; how do you maintain
>the higher value necessary to
>pick up the SHB (usually
>conveyed by concealing your
>desire) and thereafter
>maintain the higher value
>through seduction. THIS is the
>real challenge of PU, IMO, and
>the true mark of a mPUA. I
>don't have the answer, and I
>think that we as a community
>should more time and focus
>into phase shifting and actual
>The only answer that I have to
>the "paradox" is an
>observation that I made about
>rock stars. I'll call it
>"rock star" theory
>Rock stars may be a rare
>example of people who get laid
>SOLELY off of higher value.
>However, its not that simple.
>Groupies lay rock stars
>because THEY HAVE TO in order
>to hang out with them. In
>order to get back stage and
>hang out with the band, they
>are sucking someone's dick.
>Its just that simple. The sex
>is a mechanism in order to get
>A lot of guys who are
>successful in conveying higher
>value have difficulty
>establishing a similar frame.
>If the HB gets all of the
>benefits of your higher value,
>(ie, she's already invited to
>your "party"), then she had
>little incentive to give up
>the lay. I think that you
>need to employ a push-pull
>type of technique that
>convey's the message . . . "If
>you want to be part of my
>circle, you are going to have
>to give up the pussy." TD and
>others use this frame
>successfully in a NON-sexual
>context. But the sex
>expectations must be
>established. I'm still
>working on how to do this
>while still conveying higher
>It's like the old saying "why
>buy the cow when you get the
>milk for free" turned on its
>head. These younger HB's tend
>to crave the ATTENTION and
>EXCITEMENT more than the SEX.
>(unless they are HD) When a
>woman gets a little older, and
>has more orgasms under her
>belt, she tends to place a
>higher value on sex in and of
>itself. But these younger
>girls (under say 24), take the
>"Britney Spears" approach to
>sex: sex is a commodity to
>get what you want and control
>guys. If she is allowed the
>benefit of your higher value
>without giving up the pussy,
>chances are more likely that
>she won't.
>One last thing; I'm not going
>to be one of those guys that
>says TD does not get laid. I
>don't know the guy, and if he
>says he does, I'll believe
>him. I just think that he
>takes for granted the
>"seduction" part of his game,
>and I would love to see him
>discuss it in more detail.
>My only commentary

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